Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
G

G2RBeliever

Guest
#134,061
#134,061
Jude

the servant of Jesus Christ.

25: To the only wise God our SAVIOUR,be glory and majesty,DOMINION,and power,both now and forever. Amen
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,062
#134,062
CherieR said:
It would be a misunderstanding to say Christ died for only past sins. One needs to believe on Jesus and receive him to be saved. I believe misunderstanding/misinterpretation can and does happen still.

Perhaps oftentimes when speaking of past sins one means sins committed before becoming Christian. Though literally speaking, all the sins we commit are future tense from the cross.

At the same time, God knows everything that will happen from the very beginning as if it already occurred.
Click to expand...
Amen, So it makes no sense in what they are saying. if we look at reality
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,064
#134,064
Finepearl said:
N

It is accepted that no amount of works can earn us salvation. A living and true faith will naturally produce works in demonstration of that faith. Saying we have faith in Jesus and not demonstrating that faith by following in his footsteps and being obedient to his commands would belie that claim. Both Abraham and Rahab showed they had a living faith by their actions. God wants us to have a living faith
Click to expand...
true but you did not answer my question

James said faith with no works = dead (not living thus not saved)

so if no works = dead.

how many works equals living?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,065
#134,065
EleventhHour said:
I read >>>>>> I have works to prove my worth, I am righteous to prove my worth, I am carrying my cross to prove my worth, I suffer daily to prove my worth, I do not sin to prove my worth.

Translation >>>>> Jesus was not the worthy lamb of God, I can do better than Jesus.
Click to expand...
Sounds just like that ole pharisee

Praise God I am not like those sinners, I have many works, I am righteous, I carry my cross, I suffer daily. I do not sin. (pump chest)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,066
#134,066
Bbrdrd said:
It seems to me this is a lot of what the disconnect in this thread is. At what point is faith saving faith? What separates saving faith from faith that does not save?
Click to expand...
well to some..

the point is when faith became living, and the lost person called out to Jesus

to others..

That point never really occures as it must be ongoing, and is not determined until one dies.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,067
#134,067
Bbrdrd said:
So when James says faith is perfected in works, that's not saving faith? Then why were the men of thessalonica rebuked for not working if Paul meant to say ceasing from work is the definition of faith? Why were they not commended for their faith?
Click to expand...
who said it was not saving faith????
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,068
#134,068
Bbrdrd said:
I see no such distinction in the text, faith is simply faith. Take James as an example, he uses the exact same faith that Paul uses in Romans to demonstrate that it is faith by works that justifies. That is, the faith of Abraham in God's ability to deliver the seed. And James states that it is this faith that justifies. So it seems to me James is explaining what saving faith is.
Click to expand...
Paul is arguing against legalism

James is arguing against licentiousness

These contexts must be applied or else you will miss the meaning of what each author is trying to present

Paul, In arguing against a work for maintain salvation states if Abraham was found by works, He has something to boast. That abraham was called righteous because of his faith, Not because of his work. If he had to work for it, It would be debt, not grace,

James, In going against the Gnostic easy believing I can say a sinners prayer and I am magically saved, By explaining a gospel truth, That those who have true saving faith, The faith Abraham had when God declared him righteous, Before he did one work (saved by faith alone) Justified his faith was true, living and real. Because true faith works. Where mere belief will not
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,070
#134,070
Bbrdrd said:
Can't help but read James 2:22 before getting to 2:23 which says faith is perfected/completed in works. It's not faith if there are no works demonstrating it.
Click to expand...
No works

So how many works prove a true living faith?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,071
#134,071
Bbrdrd said:
The problem with James is much of the contextual questions you asked are unknown outside of guesses, unlike Romans. We can infer the issues James is writing but I hardly see how context would change the plain meaning of things like "faith without works is dead" and "faith is perfected with works" to mean the exact opposite of such things or to not be speaking of saving faith. If there are contextual issues, raise them.
Click to expand...
we can infer both in context

Romans to legalism

James to licentiousness

If we read James with the context of Romans, we will fail to understand James, If we read Romans in context as James, We will fail to understand Romans.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,072
#134,072
Bbrdrd said:
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you [r]derive your [s]benefit, [t]resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
Click to expand...
so eternal life is based on how sanctified we become?

where is hope in this? That means salvation is based on our ability Not Gods power
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,073
#134,073
Bbrdrd said:
True, but He also told a parable where the character who very likely represents Himself says "and these enemies of mine who would not have me rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me."

In Romans itself when it speaks of being sons it speaks of being led by the Spirit, which again requires obedience.

We are ruled by someone, we will have works of someone, and if we refuse to do the works of faith then we will be working faithless acts. There is no separation between faith and works, they are perfected together.
Click to expand...
How much obedience does it take?

I keep hearing all this Obedience, and I know a good child wishes to obey

But how much obedience is required to earn salvation.

This s a salvation thread not a sanctification thread. So when you bring obedience into a salvation thread. You are bound to get questions.

How much obedience is required to earn salvation. Can you say?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,074
#134,074
Bbrdrd said:
If you aren't ruled by God, you're ruled by sin. Christ's sacrifice was to break the bonds of sin that held us. I agree the works of faith are not "requirements for maintaining good stature" but if you think that's what I'm saying you're not paying attention. Faith without works is not faith at all, so to say we are saved by faith we must also include the works that faith is perfected in. There is no separating the two, no such thing as faith without works.
Click to expand...
faith without works is dead. So saying it is not much faith at all would be in error

There is no such thing as faith without works.
 
walknlight

walknlight

Member
#134,075
Nov 17, 2017
595
409
63
#134,075
eternally-gratefull said:
we can infer both in context

Romans to legalism

James to licentiousness
Click to expand...
Some make it seem that there is a conflict between Paul and James....

2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134,076
#134,076
walknlight said:
Some make it seem that there is a conflict between Paul and James....

2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Tim 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Click to expand...
Amen,

There is not. This is where proper historical application of hermetics is required. What audience is the author talking to. And why.
 
Lightskin

Lightskin

Well-known member
#134,077
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
#134,077
Bbrdrd said:
If you aren't ruled by God, you're ruled by sin. Christ's sacrifice was to break the bonds of sin that held us. I agree the works of faith are not "requirements for maintaining good stature" but if you think that's what I'm saying you're not paying attention. Faith without works is not faith at all, so to say we are saved by faith we must also include the works that faith is perfected in. There is no separating the two, no such thing as faith without works.
Click to expand...
You say faith without works is not faith at all and yet works is not needed for salvation. That’s a contradiction.

We have free will and I choose to serve God. I love God because He first loved me. You constantly take terms that pertain to the world and try to implement them into the supernatural.
 
G

G2RBeliever

Guest
#134,078
#134,078
Augustine(A.D.354-430)

Debunked Justin Martyr (A.D.100-165) and further,
Sheperd of Hermas (A.D.(155-180)
Irenaeus A.D. 120-200)
Tertullian (A.D. 150-220)

Origen ( A.D.185-254)

The reformation period was the beginning of much heresay.
The early church fathers WERE NOT inspired authors,but Jesus and the Apostles were!

The word of God is Holy Ghost inspired and breathed upon by Him!
i stand in the word,not the doctrines of men,that toss followers of Jesus to and fro with winds of doctrine.



KNOW where your belief in doctrines began outside the Word of God!
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#134,079
Apr 7, 2014
25,458
13,397
113
58
#134,079
Micaiah-imla said:
There’s just one problem with this conclusion (that we will not be sinless until we are with Christ).

Christ said that those who attain unto the resurrection are as the angels in heaven (Matthew 22:30).
Click to expand...
Matthew 22:30 does not say that we will become angels, but that we will be "like" the angels, a higher form of existence, from which the earthly conditions and limitations of this current life are eliminated.

The angels were not sinless, especially Satan. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment...what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conduct and godliness (2 Peter 2:4; 3:11).
Click to expand...
The angels that rebelled and followed Satan were not sinless and Satan did not want to worship God, but instead, he wanted to be God. (Isaiah 14:12-14) Revelation 12:4 is understood to be a figurative description of one third of the angels who chose to follow Satan in his rebellion, becoming the fallen angels, demons. Unlike humanity, the choice the angels made to follow Satan or remain faithful to God was an eternal choice. The Bible presents no opportunity for fallen angels to repent and be forgiven. Nor does the Bible indicate that it is possible for the remaining angels who chose to remain faithful to God to sin. The angels who remained faithful to God are described as the "elect angels." (1 Timothy 5:21).

Why do some believers have the impression that they will be sinless in heaven?
Click to expand...
What gives you the impression that we will continue to sin once we receive our glorified bodies in the presence of the Lord in the new heaven and earth? Our human bodies are described in 1 Corinthians 15:42-53 as perishable, dishonorable, and weak, because of sin. Our glorified bodies will be imperishable, honorable, and powerful. Our new bodies will be no longer "natural" bodies with weak, sinful flesh, but "spiritual" bodies. Our lowly bodies will be like His glorious body. (Philippians 3:21) The Bible also says in Matthew 13:43 that the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Praise the Lord! :)

Are we going to have some power that the angels didn’t have? And where does the Bible say that it won’t be possible to sin once we’re in heaven?
Click to expand...
Nowhere does the Bible say that the fall will be repeated in the new heaven. In Revelation 21:4, we read there will be no more death, sorrow, crying and neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. The wages of sin is death, so how can there be no more death if there is sin in the new heaven? Revelation 21:27 says, "But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life." Revelation 22:3 states, "No longer will there be anything accursed." The curse of sin that entered humanity with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden in Genesis 3 will be removed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.