Not By Works

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PS

PS

Senior Member
#117,183
Jan 11, 2013
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#117,183
OneOfHis said:
When Peter denied Jesus, if his life was taken in that moment.... where do you believe he would have gone after his physical life ended?



Do you believe despite the faith in his heart God would have looked to Peters actions to see if he would be justified, or do you believe because of Gods grace and through faith the righteousness of Christ would be what justified him before God?
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God looks on the heart and knew Peter reaction was done on the spur-of-the-moment, and he immediately regretted it. Had he been killed, we would still meet him in glory, providing we both get there ourselves. (grin)
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,184
Dec 6, 2019
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#117,184
PS said:
John 6:39
I should lose nothing - It is the will of God that every soul who believes should continue in the faith, and have a resurrection unto life eternal. But he wills this continuance in salvation, without purposing to force the persons so to continue. God may will a thing to be, without willing that it shall be. Judas was given to Christ by the Father, Joh_17:12. The Father willed that this Judas should continue in the faith, and have a resurrection unto life eternal: but Judas sinned and perished. Now it is evident that God willed that Judas might be saved, without willing that he must be saved infallibly and unconditionally. (Adam Clarke)

John 10:28
They shall never perish - God hath given unto them eternal life, and this life is in his Son; and he that hath the Son hath life, 1Jn_5:11, 1Jn_5:12. Now it is evident that only those who have Christ living in and governing their souls, so that they possess the mind that was in him, are his sheep - are those that shall never perish, because they have this eternal life abiding in them: therefore to talk of a man’s being one of the elect - one that shall never perish - one who shall have eternal life - who shall never be plucked out of the hand of God, etc., while he lives in sin, has no Christ in his heart, has either never received or fallen away from the grace of God, is as contrary to common sense as it is to the nature and testimonies of the Most High. Final perseverance implies final faithfulness - he that endures to the end shall be saved - he that is faithful unto death shall have a crown of life. (Adam Clarke)

The condition is that he remains faithful and endures to the end.
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First of all, you and Clarke misunderstand. The preservation that God effects is not an effect by force. Neither is the new birth is not effected by force. It is effected by Divine Grace that makes the heart willing, not by force, but a continual supply of oil, which is life.

I like Bunyan’s illustration. He saw a fire by a wall, and a man was pouring water on it, yet the fire did not go out. He found out why when he saw what was on the other side of the wall. A man was pouring oil on the fire. The interpreter, who represents the Holy Spirit told him that satan is ever tiring to extinguish the believers faith, but Christ thwarts Him by continually pouring oil on the fire

I am not saying that we are secure in the sense that it’s ok to stop believing, indulge in sin, or be lax. I don’t think anyone here is ( I hope) That would be an abuse of the Grace of God.

If one understands the Grace of God and the seriousness of it, they will not abuse Grace

I would be more opposed to abusing the doctrine of grace in that way than anything else

But I am persuaded of better things of brethren, though I speak in this way
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#117,185
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
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#117,185
Melach said:
im sorry. im not english so maybe thats why i dont get it. but to me faith belief trust all sound like same to me so.
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I'll try to help you understand.

Do you know what it means when someone says, "I have the faith to believe."?
 
OneOfHis

OneOfHis

Well-known member
#117,186
Mar 24, 2019
1,430
2,210
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#117,186
PS said:
God looks on the heart and knew Peter reaction was done on the spur-of-the-moment, and he immediately regretted it. Had he been killed, we would still meet him in glory, providing we both get there ourselves. (grin)
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I agree.😁
Gods love and understanding and mercy are absolutely amazing.....

Do you believe the regret would be a product of his faith?


(If yes, do you believe it would require more than Gods grace and that faith to be justified before God?....and justified by Christs righteousness for that matter....)
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#117,187
Mar 28, 2019
2,059
1,526
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#117,187
Judges1318 said:
I'll try to help you understand.

Do you know what it means when someone says, "I have the faith to believe."?
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ah i get it. its like u tell me go to 42nd imagination street and pick up a news paper, it'll be there.
and i have faith to believe what you said is true

is that what you mean?
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,188
Dec 6, 2019
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#117,188
Judges1318 said:
I about fell out of my chair recently when I heard John McArthur say believing couldn't possibly be how you stay saved because that would be works (or something along that line). I had listened to him for years back when I first got saved and had a lot of respect for him. Not anymore. I can't listen to him anymore.
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This quote probably represents the gist of what he meant.

The denial of the doctrine of perseverance virtually makes the salvation of man dependent on the human will rather than on the grace of God. This consideration will, of course, have no effect on those who share the Pelagian conception of salvation as autosoteric—and their numbers are great—but certainly ought to cause those to pause who glory in being saved by grace. The idea is that, after man is brought to a state of grace by the operation of the Holy Spirit alone, or by the joint operation of the Holy Spirit and the will of man, it rests solely with man to continue in faith or to forsake the faith, just as he sees fit. This renders the cause of man very precarious and makes it impossible for him to attain to the blessed assurance of faith. Consequently, it is of the utmost importance to maintain the doctrine of perseverance. In the words of Hovey, “It may be a source of great comfort and power, —an incentive to gratitude, a motive to self-sacrifice, and a pillar of fire in the hour of danger.”
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Louis Berkhof "Perserverance of the Saints"

Whether one agrees with this or not, I think it is probably basically what Mcarthur was saying.
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,189
Dec 6, 2019
1,206
691
113
#117,189
Discern said:
This quote probably represents the gist of what he meant.


Louis Berkhof "Perserverance of the Saints"

Whether one agrees with this or not, I think it is probably basically what Mcarthur was saying.
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I will also say that continuing in the faith is no more a work than beginning in faith. Faith is a gift of God, whether it is the beginning, middle, or end.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#117,190
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#117,190
OneOfHis said:
I agree.😁
Gods love and understanding and mercy are absolutely amazing.....

Do you believe the regret would be a product of his faith?


(If yes, do you believe it would require more than Gods grace and that faith to be justified before God?....and justified by Christs righteousness for that matter....)
Click to expand...
If I put myself in Peters shoes it would be out of love.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#117,191
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
#117,191
Discern said:
First of all, you and Clarke misunderstand. The preservation that God effects is not an effect by force. Neither is the new birth is not effected by force. It is effected by Divine Grace that makes the heart willing, not by force, but a continual supply of oil, which is life.

I like Bunyan’s illustration. He saw a fire by a wall, and a man was pouring water on it, yet the fire did not go out. He found out why when he saw what was on the other side of the wall. A man was pouring oil on the fire. The interpreter, who represents the Holy Spirit told him that satan is ever tiring to extinguish the believers faith, but Christ thwarts Him by continually pouring oil on the fire

I am not saying that we are secure in the sense that it’s ok to stop believing, indulge in sin, or be lax. I don’t think anyone here is ( I hope) That would be an abuse of the Grace of God.

If one understands the Grace of God and the seriousness of it, they will not abuse Grace

I would be more opposed to abusing the doctrine of grace in that way than anything else

But I am persuaded of better things of brethren, though I speak in this way
Click to expand...
It is because we are not bound to God by force, that we can wander astray.
 
VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#117,193
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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#117,193
Discern said:
This quote probably represents the gist of what he meant.


Louis Berkhof "Perserverance of the Saints"

Whether one agrees with this or not, I think it is probably basically what Mcarthur was saying.
Click to expand...



I do not know who Louis Berkhof is, BUT for Comparison Purposes, here is Dr. John MacArthur on the exact same subject:

 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,195
Dec 6, 2019
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#117,195
VCO said:
I do not know who Louis Berkhof is, BUT for Comparison Purposes, here is Dr. John MacArthur on the exact same subject:

Click to expand...
Mcarthur would probably be very similar in doctrine to Berkhof, but I will watch the video.
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,196
Dec 6, 2019
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#117,196
PS said:
It is because we are not bound to God by force, that we can wander astray.
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Of course we can wander astray. But doesn't 1 John 3 say that the seed remains in the one who is born of God. And that person cannot continue in such a state, because the seed remains in Him, because he is born of God. If I wander away and have no care and remain in that position, than I have reason to fear. But since I am born of God, I have never wandered away without having a care about it. His hand was always heavy on me

If a person can wander away and God's hand is not heavy on them in that state, there is reason for concern for that one, whether he or she was ever truly God's. Whoever does not receive chastisement is illegitimate and not a son.

A lot of people claim to be Christians and can live in open rebellion and not have a care in the world about it. Those are the kind of people that need to fear. But they don't. And why don't they?
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#117,197
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#117,197
Discern said:
Of course we can wander astray. But doesn't 1 John 3 say that the seed remains in the one who is born of God. And that person cannot continue in such a state, because the seed remains in Him, because he is born of God. If I wander away and have no care and remain in that position, than I have reason to fear. But since I am born of God, I have never wandered away without having a care about it. His hand was always heavy on me

If a person can wander away and God's hand is not heavy on them in that state, there is reason for concern for that one, whether he or she was ever truly God's. Whoever does not receive chastisement is illegitimate and not a son.

A lot of people claim to be Christians and can live in open rebellion and not have a care in the world about it. Those are the kind of people that need to fear. But they don't. And why don't they?
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I have my fathers seed in me and so do you, but I still disobeyed my dad.
 
D

Discern

Banned
#117,198
Dec 6, 2019
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691
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#117,198
PS said:
I have my fathers seed in me and so do you, but I still disobeyed my dad.
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Some will say "did you ever cease being your father's son" but I will use a different tact

Having the seed of God in you, how comfortable are you when commit sin? Is it a light thing with you, or is it a heavy burden.

It is a grievious, heavy burden to me when I sin.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#117,199
#117,199
PS said:
Everyone is elected. It was and is Gods plan and purpose that everyone will be saved. God draws EVERYONE to Him, but then, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way"

Sorry mate, if everyone has turned away there is nobody left. WE NEED TO REMAIN FAITHFUL TO THE END.
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Sorry mate

not everyone is elected, I do not know where you came up with this, but it is not true

those who,are elected are elected to eternal life, to,spend eternity wih Christ.
 
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