Not By Works
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Here's an interesting thing.
This word that Jesus uses here:
Luke 22:14And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. 15And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Is actually the same root word as Matt 5:28 that Jesus uses about a sinful man desiring a woman who is not his wife for adultery.
Why is this important? Because it is often taught that "desire" is evil, but God gave us desires.
And they can be righteous.
As we see the same root word here used in a righteous sense:
Matt 13:17For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
I don't believe "desire" itself is evil, but what matters is where it's directed.
In the instance of Matt 5:28 it's directed at a woman who wasn't the man's covenant partner.
But in Matt 13:17 it's righteous because it's directed at God.
Something interesting I wanted to share that I discovered in researching all of this.
This word that Jesus uses here:
Luke 22:14And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. 15And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Is actually the same root word as Matt 5:28 that Jesus uses about a sinful man desiring a woman who is not his wife for adultery.
Why is this important? Because it is often taught that "desire" is evil, but God gave us desires.
And they can be righteous.
As we see the same root word here used in a righteous sense:
Matt 13:17For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
I don't believe "desire" itself is evil, but what matters is where it's directed.
In the instance of Matt 5:28 it's directed at a woman who wasn't the man's covenant partner.
But in Matt 13:17 it's righteous because it's directed at God.
Something interesting I wanted to share that I discovered in researching all of this.
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I DID admit I was wrong..in at least 1 or 2 posts... Now let's move on, please.. 
However, you keep making comments on it. Now let's move on, I'm done discussing this..
But you keep discussing it and asking me to stop. You have NO right to ask me not to respond to you! Or to anybody else! You responded to lots of posts before I even got here this morning, but as soon as I did, you were all over me, wanting me to stop. You did say please, once.
Just so you know I wrote you an extensive reply to your other post to me that you may not have seen.
In response to this post though
The way I see things is this:
Jesus said APART from Me you can do nothing. So in a discussion about works this is where I think we start.
If I am apart from Him I can do no good work.
But if I am connected to Him as my Vine, as His branch, I will bear His fruit.
That's why I prefer the idea of after conversion being understood as fruit vs works.
Now in James he does use the term "works", but please notice he is using this as a conversion example. I will show you my faith by my works. He is addressing the idea just as I believe you are. That people who are saved don't need to have "works". But the truth is the reason people who are saved HAVE works is because of the transformation that happens after we are reborn in Christ.
So the question is why do some people have very few works than? I have prayed about this extensively in my own life.
I also believe Paul was just as baffled by this as many are today.
Hebrews 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
1 Co 3:2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready,
1 Peter 2:2 Like newborn infants, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
You'll notice all 3 of my examples are written by different authors (if Paul didn't write Hebrews) and in different books. Why did I show this? Because this idea that people who ARE saved still need to grow up is all through-out Scripture.
So their immature behavior wasn't because they weren't saved, but because they didn't have their understanding made fruitful yet.
Colossians 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Please notice we pray for those who ARE saved. That they may be filled WITH knowledge of His will in all SPIRITUAL wisdom and understanding. And by this they will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, bearing FRUIT in every good work...
As people GROW UP in who they are in Christ we shall see them walk in a manner worthy of the Lord.
But growing up in Christ is SPIRITUAL and unfortunately that's something we as a Body are still growing in so we don't see it like it is available in Christ. People walk out the revelation of grace that they understand. But that's why we must stress who they are in Christ not who they are trying to be. We don't want to have to keep going back to the foundation over and over, but building ON the foundation so that the work of God might be seen in their lives.
Like I said Paul was perplexed by this as well:
1 Co 3:3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
So why do some act only like mere humans? We see a part of the idea I'm painting here in the proceeding verse.1 Co 3:16 Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Bless you.
In response to this post though
The way I see things is this:
Jesus said APART from Me you can do nothing. So in a discussion about works this is where I think we start.
If I am apart from Him I can do no good work.
But if I am connected to Him as my Vine, as His branch, I will bear His fruit.
That's why I prefer the idea of after conversion being understood as fruit vs works.
Now in James he does use the term "works", but please notice he is using this as a conversion example. I will show you my faith by my works. He is addressing the idea just as I believe you are. That people who are saved don't need to have "works". But the truth is the reason people who are saved HAVE works is because of the transformation that happens after we are reborn in Christ.
So the question is why do some people have very few works than? I have prayed about this extensively in my own life.
I also believe Paul was just as baffled by this as many are today.
Hebrews 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
1 Co 3:2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for solid food. In fact, you are still not ready,
1 Peter 2:2 Like newborn infants, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
You'll notice all 3 of my examples are written by different authors (if Paul didn't write Hebrews) and in different books. Why did I show this? Because this idea that people who ARE saved still need to grow up is all through-out Scripture.
So their immature behavior wasn't because they weren't saved, but because they didn't have their understanding made fruitful yet.
Colossians 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Please notice we pray for those who ARE saved. That they may be filled WITH knowledge of His will in all SPIRITUAL wisdom and understanding. And by this they will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, bearing FRUIT in every good work...
As people GROW UP in who they are in Christ we shall see them walk in a manner worthy of the Lord.
But growing up in Christ is SPIRITUAL and unfortunately that's something we as a Body are still growing in so we don't see it like it is available in Christ. People walk out the revelation of grace that they understand. But that's why we must stress who they are in Christ not who they are trying to be. We don't want to have to keep going back to the foundation over and over, but building ON the foundation so that the work of God might be seen in their lives.
Like I said Paul was perplexed by this as well:
1 Co 3:3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
So why do some act only like mere humans? We see a part of the idea I'm painting here in the proceeding verse.1 Co 3:16 Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Bless you.
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you never did respond when i posted earlier.
i know this thread sometimes moves fast and things are buried..
but DJ2 i want to hear from you since you keep saying this, that 'context' is a cop-out or something, and we should understand the simple, clear message of single statements: what is the simple, obvious meaning of Romans 4:5 ?
is the scripture set against itself?
i know this thread sometimes moves fast and things are buried..
but DJ2 i want to hear from you since you keep saying this, that 'context' is a cop-out or something, and we should understand the simple, clear message of single statements: what is the simple, obvious meaning of Romans 4:5 ?
is the scripture set against itself?
R
I already answered this. I guess you just missed it.
But anywho, the Bible says that the person who has no fear of the return of Christ is the person who looks like Jesus in this life. And it isn't a numerical number. It's if you are growing up into the qualities of the Spirit in increasing measure-2 Peter 2:5-11.
If you're not growing up into the image of Christ and are still in your old lawless, immoral, disobedient life you can't be sure if you're saved and ready for when Jesus comes back. Only those growing up in Christ according to the qualities of the Spirit have that sureness of their salvation. That's why we're told to work, so we can have that sureness, and get saved for real if we can't produce the works of faith that show a person is saved. Remember, unbelievers can't do that. They can call themselves saved all day long, and believe it, but that doesn't make it so. Only the Spirit working in our lives growing us up into the image of Christ testifies to us having truly received Christ in salvation.
But anywho, the Bible says that the person who has no fear of the return of Christ is the person who looks like Jesus in this life. And it isn't a numerical number. It's if you are growing up into the qualities of the Spirit in increasing measure-2 Peter 2:5-11.
If you're not growing up into the image of Christ and are still in your old lawless, immoral, disobedient life you can't be sure if you're saved and ready for when Jesus comes back. Only those growing up in Christ according to the qualities of the Spirit have that sureness of their salvation. That's why we're told to work, so we can have that sureness, and get saved for real if we can't produce the works of faith that show a person is saved. Remember, unbelievers can't do that. They can call themselves saved all day long, and believe it, but that doesn't make it so. Only the Spirit working in our lives growing us up into the image of Christ testifies to us having truly received Christ in salvation.
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Starting at John 2:14 In the temple courts He found men selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and money changers seated at their tables. So He made a whip out of cords and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle. He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those selling doves He said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn My Father’s house into a marketplace!”
Ralph you also never replied to me.
since "it is God who works in me both to will and to do" and "it is not by human desire or effort" then what you keep telling us is that Jesus needs to work harder or we're toast. i'm not the one who makes me like Him. He is. that's what scripture says.
do you believe He is faithful to complete what He began, or not?
since "it is God who works in me both to will and to do" and "it is not by human desire or effort" then what you keep telling us is that Jesus needs to work harder or we're toast. i'm not the one who makes me like Him. He is. that's what scripture says.
do you believe He is faithful to complete what He began, or not?
Absolutely not.
Our Lord and savior is without any sin. Spotless, without blemish. Perfect.
I will carry on for hours, days, yrs, decades.
I just read the discourse you had with someone here and I very happy to read post from a person such as yourself.
You are a blessing.
All I was pointing out is that lust is synonomous with desire, and even coveteousness and envy. It did not go so well when cain envied his brother abel.
I only wanted to separate the word useage itself in order to help any readers who have not read and studied scripture. And also to offer more in the area for those who have been wonderfully given the Spirit of Understanding.
n general I only add that,
If any of the younger in Christ feels short on vocabulary, I hope to encourage all readers here that the scripture is wonderfull in this area.
Our Lord and savior is without any sin. Spotless, without blemish. Perfect.
I will carry on for hours, days, yrs, decades.
I just read the discourse you had with someone here and I very happy to read post from a person such as yourself.
You are a blessing.
All I was pointing out is that lust is synonomous with desire, and even coveteousness and envy. It did not go so well when cain envied his brother abel.
I only wanted to separate the word useage itself in order to help any readers who have not read and studied scripture. And also to offer more in the area for those who have been wonderfully given the Spirit of Understanding.
n general I only add that,
If any of the younger in Christ feels short on vocabulary, I hope to encourage all readers here that the scripture is wonderfull in this area.
R
Maybe I can help.
Faith is the sole issue for JUSTIFICATION.
You are justified on the basis of faith all by itself apart from works-Romans 4:6. But works are what accompanies salvation-Hebrews 6:9-10. Without the works that accompany salvation you are a barren field that in the end will be burned not saved-Hebrews 6:7-8.
Justification that does not produce works of righteousness in a person is no justification at all. That person is still unjustified and lost and will be rejected when Jesus comes back. Works of righteousness are how you know that you have truly been justified apart from works in Christ through the forgiveness of sin-Luke 7:47-50.
Faith is the sole issue for JUSTIFICATION.
You are justified on the basis of faith all by itself apart from works-Romans 4:6. But works are what accompanies salvation-Hebrews 6:9-10. Without the works that accompany salvation you are a barren field that in the end will be burned not saved-Hebrews 6:7-8.
Justification that does not produce works of righteousness in a person is no justification at all. That person is still unjustified and lost and will be rejected when Jesus comes back. Works of righteousness are how you know that you have truly been justified apart from works in Christ through the forgiveness of sin-Luke 7:47-50.