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Dec 12, 2013
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Hello D,

Do you actually read the Bible? Below is what is said regarding the seven bowl judgments:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagueslast, because with them God’s wrath is completed. "

If the bowl judgments are the "last" plagues of wrath, then there would have to be wrath that took place before them, namely, the seals and the trumpets. Not only that, but how do explain the announcement at the opening of the 6th seal which says:

"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

So, here at the 6th seal we have the announcement that God's wrath has come, which takes place way before the seven bowl judgments. How do you explain that? Never mind, it would just be an flawed apologetic anyway.



Why would I believe that, when the scripture is quite clear that the sky will be rolled up like a scroll and the event is taking place on the earth, ergo the mention of a great earthquake, the inhabitants fleeing to the mountains, the islands and mountains being moved due to the earthquake.

I actually read and study the information
Sure I can read....and the wrath of God is announced at the 7th trump, in HEAVEN before the throne.......I will take that any day over lost men hiding in cave thinking it is the wrath of God......funny thing....guys like you been spewing the imminent return oh since about the 1800's and yet.....time marches on and more and more events are fulfilled and there are STILL things to be fulfilled....until that day....the return of Christ is not IMMINENT...P>S> 40 years means nothing when your refuse to acknowledge the very definitions of words and who they actually apply to and THE ANNOUNCED WRATH OF GOD at the 7th TRUMP......
 

ComeLordJesus

Senior Member
Dec 26, 2017
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Sure I can read....and the wrath of God is announced at the 7th trump, in HEAVEN before the throne.......I will take that any day over lost men hiding in cave thinking it is the wrath of God......funny thing....guys like you been spewing the imminent return oh since about the 1800's and yet.....time marches on and more and more events are fulfilled and there are STILL things to be fulfilled....until that day....the return of Christ is not IMMINENT...P>S> 40 years means nothing when your refuse to acknowledge the very definitions of words and who they actually apply to and THE ANNOUNCED WRATH OF GOD at the 7th TRUMP......
How can you say the return of Jesus is not imminent when you know there are things that have to be fulfilled before he returns?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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How can you say the return of Jesus is not imminent when you know there are things that have to be fulfilled before he returns?
WHAAAAAAAAAA? Ok.....let us deductively reason....

a. Imminent return = any moment he can crack the sky
b. Things to be fulfilled first = he cannot crack the sky until the afore mentioned things are fulfilled

NOW....tell me what I meant by saying......

The return of Christ is not imminent <----BECAUSE there are EVENTS YET TO BE FULFILLED...........KAPESH?
 

MichaelOwen

Senior Member
Nov 6, 2017
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One thing I've learned is that this kind of talk has been going on for decades....maybe even centuries. At this point, we understand enough about the Word to know that the Rapture is coming, and the Day of Lord is coming....and this talk will continue until it happens. But I've gotten to a point where you can study all you want and share what you want, but we know it's coming, so just make sure YOUR heart and soul are prepared to be with Christ, and let Christ deal with those who do not know Him personally. If they reject Him, that's completely on them, and they will be left behind. If they accept Him, then we shall meet them in the air.

Just remember, whether Jesus comes in our age or the age to come, we don't know, but we do know that if we have the faith in Him, and we die before He returns, He will STILL RAISE US UP ON THE LAST DAY!
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Well, if you believe that the Lord is going to leave his bride on the earth during the time of his wrath, then you haven't done serious study on eschatology.

Let me ask you this: do you ever see the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" anywhere from chapter 4 thru 18? You won't find it and there is very good reason for that. It is because the church is no longer on the earth from that time forward.

I'm tired of this false teaching that instead of the Lord gathering his church according to his promise, people want to put the church through God's wrath instead and then have them gathered after, that is, whoever would be left alive. That certainly wouldn't be a blessed hope nor could believers comfort one another with those words. There is a big difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have, which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming wrath which will come directly and purposefully from him. One the church is gathered, then God's wrath will be in operation.

If you had done a thorough study, you would see the bride/church in heaven receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb (Rev.19:6-8)and following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses as He returns to the earth to end the age (Rev.19:14).

As Jesus said regarding that time of God's wrath, "For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again." That means that nothing that has previously taken place will compare to God's coming wrath and if he allowed it go on any longer, no one would be left alive.



That's because I have been studying end-time events for over 40 years and I know what I am talking about. I live in Revelation and end-time events. I would have to be positive and confident about God's word in order to be able to do the following:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

I couldn't be doing the above if I was wishy washy in regards to God's word. Do you think that Paul and the other apostles went around compromising with the word of God. We have that same word, but Satan has infiltrated Christianity and we have false teachings now pretty much on every Biblical subject and I'm tired of reading it and hearing it!

I also think that you are confusing confidence in the word of God with arrogance. There is only one view and only one way the end is going to take place, which is according to scripture. Not the distorted versions, but what scripture states.

The underlying principle here is that those who have received Christ have been credited with his righteousness and have been reconciled to God. The wrath that every believer deserves was poured out on Christ, satisfying God's wrath completely and fully. Regarding this, scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10), that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9) and that He promised to keep us out of that time of wrath (Rev.3:10).

Therefore, the wrath of God no longer rests upon believers. Yet, we have these people who, instead believing the Lord's promise to gather us before His wrath, they prefer to believe that He is going to punish us along with the wicked. And if you or others think that we would be unaffected if we were here on the earth during that time of God's wrath, then you're dreaming. But that's irrelevant because no where is the church mentioned after the end of chapter 3.

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Regarding the scripture above, Paul just got done giving a detailed account of the gathering of the church. Then he says that destruction will come upon them (unbelievers) suddenly and they will not escape. Then Paul follows with "but you, brothers." Without even reading the rest of the verse, "But you brothers" immediately infers the opposite of not escaping. And that escape will be made possible regarding what Paul just wrote about, i.e. the dead in Christ rising first and then we which remain and are still alive being changed and caught up. What would be the difference if both the righteous and the wicked got caught in the same time of wrath?

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,"

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The Lord is going to gather his bride before his wrath takes place not after
Dude. Your'e so busy making sure no one is on your cloud, you don't even realize I agree with a lot of your end times positions. Not all, but a lot.

And guess what. Those Pharisees in Jesus time on Earth studied the Word their entire lives too. A LOT longer than 40 yrs. Yet some dumb old fisherman taught them a thing or two, huh?


[video=youtube;jgWUi-ozMAU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgWUi-ozMAU[/video]
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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I twist nothing and always provide the scripture to back up what I am proclaiming. I look forward to the Lord's vindication that I have been telling the truth of his word. You confuse confidence in the word of God with self pride.
I mentioned before, I am suspicious of anyone (short of Jesus) who claims to have it ALL worked out, especially when we have been told some things are sealed up until the time of the end. Do you know what the seven thunders spoke? You aren't being honest with scripture in some areas. Everything you are teaching has been taught previously from thousands of pulpits. You aren't presenting anything other than an established teaching which is possibly flawed in places. When you stop asking questions you stop learning.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Dude. Your'e so busy making sure no one is on your cloud, you don't even realize I agree with a lot of your end times positions. Not all, but a lot.

And guess what. Those Pharisees in Jesus time on Earth studied the Word their entire lives too. A LOT longer than 40 yrs. Yet some dumb old fisherman taught them a thing or two, huh?


[video=youtube;jgWUi-ozMAU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgWUi-ozMAU[/video]
I confess I was a big Stones fan in my miss-spent youth.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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Wrong and that would be wrong.......one of these days you will figure out that the wrath of GOD is NOT ANNOUNCED until the 7th trump....instead of believing the lost men hiding in the caves at the 6th seal....try believing the ANNOUNCED WRATH OF GOD as BEING HERE at the 7th TRUMP IN HEAVEN BEFORE the throne.....

one of many monkey wrenches in your imminent return fable ;) HAHAH


DC, I have tried to figure out where you are coming from, a pastor and all... All I can come up with , that your are with those that believe the Seven Seals (end at the 7th trump) while the 7 trumpets (end at the 7th trump) while the 7 Bowls (end at the 7th trump) at the SAME TIME? A parallel viewpoint. It is the only view that could disrupt the Pre-trib view if it were true. However, the working of a scroll, a rolled up scroll (not a book with pages) prevents this possibility.

The first six seals are just that (SEALS)..They seal the beginning of the page from opening. Each one also has something attached to it and Notice that they are separate the others.The Scroll finally opens up at the breaking of the 7th seal. Only then can the scroll begin to be opened. Unroll it to the 1st trump and read...unroll it to the 2nd trump and roll.....roll it to the 7th trumpet and read.....****continue to unroll it to the 1st Bowl....and read....

Now as I have written this and you have read my writings, you have read them in line sequential line, each acting upon the other and waiting for the Earth dwellers to Repent. BUT they never do so the scroll keeps on rolling unto the end?

Look it up. Acts 17:11

 
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Dec 12, 2013
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DC, I have tried to figure out where you are coming from, a pastor and all... All I can come up with , that your are with those that believe the Seven Seals (end at the 7th trump) while the 7 trumpets (end at the 7th trump) while the 7 Bowls (end at the 7th trump) at the SAME TIME? A parallel viewpoint. It is the only view that could disrupt the Pre-trib view if it were true. However, the working of a scroll, a rolled up scroll (not a book with pages) prevents this possibility.

The first six seals are just that (SEALS)..They seal the beginning of the page from opening. Each one also has something attached to it and Notice that they are separate the others.The Scroll finally opens up at the breaking of the 7th seal. Only then can the scroll begin to be opened. Unroll it to the 1st trump and read...unroll it to the 2nd trump and roll.....roll it to the 7th trumpet and read.....****continue to unroll it to the 1st Bowl....and read....

Now as I have written this and you have read my writings, you have read them in line sequential line, each acting upon the other and waiting for the Earth dwellers to Repent. BUT they never do so the scroll keeps on rolling unto the end?

Look it up. Acts 17:11

Ummm no.....that is not what I believe......the cracking of the 7th seal initiates the 7 trumps.....and the 7th trump initiates the wrath of God....my stance is simple....

Post great tribulation/Pre-wrath ingathering

nothing more, nothing less.......the Lord's churches will endure the Great tribulation, but will be yanked before the wrath of God.........

I was raised imminent return, believed imminent return, dogmatically defended imminent return.....and too be frank....there are too many scriptures that contradict this view........
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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DC, I have tried to figure out where you are coming from, a pastor and all... All I can come up with , that your are with those that believe the Seven Seals (end at the 7th trump) while the 7 trumpets (end at the 7th trump) while the 7 Bowls (end at the 7th trump) at the SAME TIME? A parallel viewpoint. It is the only view that could disrupt the Pre-trib view if it were true. However, the working of a scroll, a rolled up scroll (not a book with pages) prevents this possibility.

The first six seals are just that (SEALS)..They seal the beginning of the page from opening. Each one also has something attached to it and Notice that they are separate the others.The Scroll finally opens up at the breaking of the 7th seal. Only then can the scroll begin to be opened. Unroll it to the 1st trump and read...unroll it to the 2nd trump and roll.....roll it to the 7th trumpet and read.....****continue to unroll it to the 1st Bowl....and read....

Now as I have written this and you have read my writings, you have read them in line sequential line, each acting upon the other and waiting for the Earth dwellers to Repent. BUT they never do so the scroll keeps on rolling unto the end?

Look it up. Acts 17:11

Opinions of historians differ on that.

(Rev 5:1)
"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals."
The description of what John saw. He clearly described a book with seven seals. Since he saw them, it wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest they were on the outside of the scroll, not on the inside of the document. The seals are not hidden from view. If the seals are on the outside, all seven must be opened before the contents of the book are revealed.


Robert van Kampen owns one of the world's most extensive private collections of biblical manuscripts, with many dating back to the second century. He writes in his book, "The Sign," that of the many scrolls in his possession not one has a seal on the inside. When sealed, the scrolls are all done so from the outside. When one seal is present, it was usually placed there by the author of the scroll. When more than one seal is present it indicates a series or set of conditions that must be met before the scroll can actually be opened. He also cites that the Shrine of the Book located on the grounds of the Israel Museum in Jerusalem has many scrolls that have multiple seals placed on them, yet not one scroll has a seal on the inside.


What is the scroll that John saw?

Ezekiel might have a clue.
Ez 2:9-10 "And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe."
 
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valleyofdecision

Guest
Ummm no.....that is not what I believe......the cracking of the 7th seal initiates the 7 trumps.....and the 7th trump initiates the wrath of God....my stance is simple....

Post great tribulation/Pre-wrath ingathering

nothing more, nothing less.......the Lord's churches will endure the Great tribulation, but will be yanked before the wrath of God.........

I was raised imminent return, believed imminent return, dogmatically defended imminent return.....and too be frank....there are too many scriptures that contradict this view........
The veil usually gets removed on imminent return , when one lets the Holy Spirit reveal the real meaning behind 1 Thess 4:13-18
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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WHAAAAAAAAAA? Ok.....let us deductively reason....

a. Imminent return = any moment he can crack the sky
b. Things to be fulfilled first = he cannot crack the sky until the afore mentioned things are fulfilled

NOW....tell me what I meant by saying......

The return of Christ is not imminent <----BECAUSE there are EVENTS YET TO BE FULFILLED...........KAPESH?

No, the Rapture is Imminent and Nothing has to happen for it to happen. Can happen in the next 15 seconds or less OR could happen in the years to come?????It is also unknown although we do know the season and I tell you it is close.

On the other hand, The coming of the LORD (to earth) to the Battle of Armageddon (with his saints) has to be preceded by many events. Of course this is according to the WORD of Jesus which is not really reliable, according to you and some others on this forum.??????
 
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valleyofdecision

Guest
No, the Rapture is Imminent and Nothing has to happen for it to happen. Can happen in the next 15 seconds or less OR could happen in the years to come?????It is also unknown although we do know the season and I tell you it is close.

On the other hand, The coming of the LORD (to earth) to the Battle of Armageddon (with his saints) has to be preceded by many events. Of course this is according to the WORD of Jesus which is not really reliable, according to you and some others on this forum.??????
This would contradict God's own nature, you realize this right?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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No, the Rapture is Imminent and Nothing has to happen for it to happen. Can happen in the next 15 seconds or less OR could happen in the years to come?????It is also unknown although we do know the season and I tell you it is close.

On the other hand, The coming of the LORD (to earth) to the Battle of Armageddon (with his saints) has to be preceded by many events. Of course this is according to the WORD of Jesus which is not really reliable, according to you and some others on this forum.??????
Yeah sure......I am fairly confident Paul was inspired and you are not.....and He disagrees with you....so does Jesus and John and Daniel........keep dreaming and open your eyes.......
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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The veil usually gets removed on imminent return , when one lets the Holy Spirit reveal the real meaning behind 1 Thess 4:13-18
The famous verse that many claim as 'proof' not only of a rapture but a pre-trib rapture.
It clearly describes a resurrection.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The famous verse that many claim as 'proof' not only of a rapture but a pre-trib rapture.
It clearly describes a resurrection.

Paul was clear.....the coming (body presence) of Christ, that IS TO SAY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.....WILL not HAPPEN until the MAN of SIN has been revealed AS GOD sitting on the THRONE OF GOD, claiming to BE GOD.....

Has anyone seen this yet.....NOPE...must HAPPEN before the resurrection/change...........just 1 thing of many.....the imminent return is nothing more than a fanciful farce made up by men.....
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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This would contradict God's own nature, you realize this right?

Ok I will bite... How does it contradict God's nature, not that I would know if it were true or not, since I have no idea of God's own nature. I do know how he has treated mankind since HE created US. Is that what you mean about HIS nature?
 
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valleyofdecision

Guest
Ok I will bite... How does it contradict God's nature, not that I would know if it were true or not, since I have no idea of God's own nature. I do know how he has treated mankind since HE created US. Is that what you mean about HIS nature?
God places his word above his name. Psalm 138:2
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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The famous verse that many claim as 'proof' not only of a rapture but a pre-trib rapture.
It clearly describes a resurrection.
That does not mean that it EXCLUDES the Rapture of those who are alive at that time. The Resurrection simply precedes the Rapture, but since all of this is "in the twinkling of an eye" (a nano-second) it makes no difference, and this is essentially one supernatural events

THE RESURRECTION
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [the dead in Christ], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus [the dead in Christ] will God bring with him.

THE RAPTURE
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [the dead in Christ].

THE RESURRECTION
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

THE RAPTURE
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together [Gk harpazo = Latin rapiemur = English rapture] with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.