Loss of salvation???
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Well, per your view God wasted His time inspiring the sour 16:
Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
Some add to the Word of God because they demand some subjective, emotional, satisfaction.
But, just the same. It tells us...
Now, the other guy's version?
The right way does not seem right to those who wish to place themselves on God's throne,
and desire to see how they would do things if they were God.
Keeping my oars in the water......
But, just the same. It tells us...
The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.
He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:29-31
Now, the other guy's version?
They replied, “Do something good for others, real quick!
And then, believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—
you and your household.”
The right way does not seem right to those who wish to place themselves on God's throne,
and desire to see how they would do things if they were God.
Keeping my oars in the water......
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This is why there is a real difference between "learned" believers and "knowing" believers.
I would and could make a Brother or Sister on a plane going down that is 30 Seconds away from impact.
I wouldn't have to say under my breath," Well God might save you, He only has a few elect." Or " Well you need to believe and obey something."
The Lord Jesus Christ lived,died and rose again for you and your sins........Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.....With a CLEAR conscience.
BOOM.
I would and could make a Brother or Sister on a plane going down that is 30 Seconds away from impact.
I wouldn't have to say under my breath," Well God might save you, He only has a few elect." Or " Well you need to believe and obey something."
The Lord Jesus Christ lived,died and rose again for you and your sins........Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.....With a CLEAR conscience.
BOOM.
We have endured only through our faith in Christ. And when we fail to obey, we mourn the fact that we are such weak creatures, but are ever thankful for the work of Christ and the Spirit who are both merciful and full of grace. And we know that when God looks at us, He sees no spot or wrinkle. 
So, we rest (trust) and do nothing else? Do we endure in this rest (trust)? And if we don't? Or can we not?
NKJ Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
So, the 50-60 commands in Romans and the approx. 600 commands in the NC are something we just rest in, and they will take care of themselves, which seems to go along with the @Cameron143 descriptive theory?
NKJ Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
So, the 50-60 commands in Romans and the approx. 600 commands in the NC are something we just rest in, and they will take care of themselves, which seems to go along with the @Cameron143 descriptive theory?
So, what's the Free Grace resolution - saved, can't lose, don't measure up, bow to God's enemy, no harm, no foul, discipline unto death, no bright suit, a smaller mansion? I know this sounds sarcastic but it's nothing personal so clean it up for me.
And how do you read the @Cameron143 concept which seems to say that true Christians will or can only measure up?
And how do you read the @Cameron143 concept which seems to say that true Christians will or can only measure up?
20+?? This thing's reaching 100 🤣
I've just now seen this thread and I'm about to learn a lot on this topic. I obviously lean towards genuine faith in Jesus's work being that which saves, but I've always wanted to know all the Scriptures that the works based believers trust in.
This should be a good read and valuable lessons. And as always, I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ
I've just now seen this thread and I'm about to learn a lot on this topic. I obviously lean towards genuine faith in Jesus's work being that which saves, but I've always wanted to know all the Scriptures that the works based believers trust in.
This should be a good read and valuable lessons. And as always, I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ
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Encouraging perseverance obviously mentions/means/implies the possibility of not standing firm/being saved or of being cut off/having believed in vain, etc.
According to you it is impossible to get unsaved.
If God were going to nullify MFW at the end, He would have been more loving to do it for ALL at the beginning.
According to you it is impossible to get unsaved.
If God were going to nullify MFW at the end, He would have been more loving to do it for ALL at the beginning.
In Gal 5 the works of the flesh are all things of disobedience to God and the fruit of the Spirit all have to do with obedience to God (e.g. love is keeping God's commandments). Also, the fruit of "patience" is related to endurance and the fruit are developed over time in part by endurance.
NKJ Ps37:3-8 Trust in the LORD, and do good; Dwell in the land, and feed on His faithfulness. 4 Delight yourself also in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. 5 Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, And He shall bring it to pass. 6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light, And your justice as the noonday. 7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for Him; Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way, Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass. 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath; Do not fret-- it only causes harm.
NKJ 2Pet1:2-13 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
NKJ Ps37:3-8 Trust in the LORD, and do good; Dwell in the land, and feed on His faithfulness. 4 Delight yourself also in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. 5 Commit your way to the LORD, Trust also in Him, And He shall bring it to pass. 6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light, And your justice as the noonday. 7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for Him; Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way, Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass. 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath; Do not fret-- it only causes harm.
This Psalm doesn't say obedience is a desire God places in the heart. It's a Psalm full of commands to believers and promises in response to their obedience.
NKJ 2Pet1:2-13 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
- God has provided all we need so we may be partakers (partners, sharers) of the divine nature.
- Now comes our part [under grace]:
- Because God has provided for us so we may become sharers in the divine nature, these are all things we're commanded to do. With your view of 'descriptive commands" it seems these are things that will be developed in a Christian. So, my question remains; what if we don't see these things being developed in a professing Christian?
- Please note endurance is being commanded that we add it to our faith. Please also note how it is being translated differently as I said takes place in translations that translate inconsistently.
- Another translation for comparison: NET 2 Peter 1:8 For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately.
- So, are these things really yours and continually increasing? Is there such a thing as an unproductive Christian? With descriptive commands how can there be?
- This verse shores up the commands in v.5-7.
- Shortsighted, blind, forgotten he was cleansed from his old sins. It seems he has forgotten he's a Christian and what being cleansed from sins is for (e.g. so he may share in the divine nature which he will not be doing if he's become shortsighted and blind to what he was cleansed for).
- This verse shores up the commands in v.5-7.
- More command to the Christian being compared with not stumbling (see below re: committing offense)
- You Christians be diligent to make your call and election firm/reliable/permanent/valid.
- If you are doing these things (v.5-8, 10) you'll never stumble
- In Rom11:11-12 stumbling is correlated to committing an offense toward God
- Peter is concerned enough to be always reminding Christians of this pursuit of the divine nature
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I'm not approaching this in one statement of my belief but through a methodical approach looking at Scripture re: endurance to begin with. So, I'm not going to sideline endurance with a rabbit trail to hypothetical or theoretical conclusions which seems to be the practice on these threads. I will say that your first question is a good one and the other two have been answered hypothetically by thoughts such as the Christian can walk away. I asked a question related to this in looking at endurance in Rev14 - can a Christian not endure and turn to become an enemy of God who bows to the beast?
I'm not sure you've ever answered what is the professing Christian who never fits the description of descriptive commands? I'll also ask you if you think the commands can be both prescriptive and descriptive thereby placing a cooperative effort between the Christian and God.
I'm not sure you've ever answered what is the professing Christian who never fits the description of descriptive commands? I'll also ask you if you think the commands can be both prescriptive and descriptive thereby placing a cooperative effort between the Christian and God.
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Whose power is doing the transforming, yours or Gods? Whose Spirit is leading you into righteousness, yours or God's?
If you don't understand how grace works through faith to save you or how the Spirit leads you into doing what is right, how can you know of the gift you have been given? Are you suggesting we make a list of commands to do each day and tick them off as we do them?
Those 600 plus commands are the word of God and yes they will take care of you because God never fails to keep His word. Do you not trust in His word?
You have no power of your own to save yourself. You either rely on God's word to work in you and His Spirit to lead you or you must necessarily rely on your own strength and understanding. If you choose the latter, I may as well wish you good "luck".
If you don't understand how grace works through faith to save you or how the Spirit leads you into doing what is right, how can you know of the gift you have been given? Are you suggesting we make a list of commands to do each day and tick them off as we do them?
Those 600 plus commands are the word of God and yes they will take care of you because God never fails to keep His word. Do you not trust in His word?
You have no power of your own to save yourself. You either rely on God's word to work in you and His Spirit to lead you or you must necessarily rely on your own strength and understanding. If you choose the latter, I may as well wish you good "luck".
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Thanks for this response.
While not commenting on your use of "salvation of the soul" I have highlighted some things of importance IMO in what you've said. As you can see, I've found much of what've said important.
I have done the studies re: patience and abiding and endurance and I've found them all to be correlated and necessary and although enabled, not done for us.
While not commenting on your use of "salvation of the soul" I have highlighted some things of importance IMO in what you've said. As you can see, I've found much of what've said important.
I have done the studies re: patience and abiding and endurance and I've found them all to be correlated and necessary and although enabled, not done for us.
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Whose power is doing the transforming, yours or Gods? Whose Spirit is leading you into righteousness, yours or God's?
If you don't understand how grace works through faith to save you or how the Spirit leads you into doing what is right, how can you know of the gift you have been given? Are you suggesting we make a list of commands to do each day and tick them off as we do them?
Those 600 plus commands are the word of God and yes they will take care of you because God never fails to keep His word. Do you not trust in His word?
You have no power of your own to save yourself. You either rely on God's word to work in you and His Spirit to lead you or you must necessarily rely on your own strength and understanding. If you choose the latter, I may as well wish you good "luck".
If you don't understand how grace works through faith to save you or how the Spirit leads you into doing what is right, how can you know of the gift you have been given? Are you suggesting we make a list of commands to do each day and tick them off as we do them?
Those 600 plus commands are the word of God and yes they will take care of you because God never fails to keep His word. Do you not trust in His word?
You have no power of your own to save yourself. You either rely on God's word to work in you and His Spirit to lead you or you must necessarily rely on your own strength and understanding. If you choose the latter, I may as well wish you good "luck".
You clearly seem to think I don't understand or recognize God's power and work and grace in our transformation/transfiguration. Why is this?
FWIW, I completely accept this, at bare minimum: ESV John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
What's the reverse of this - He does everything or in union with Him we can do productive things?
Also, FWIW, in passive commands like the transformation ones, I and others I've worked with have come to see them as both active and passive so to speak. IOW, underlying a passive command will be several active commands for the passive command to be taking place. For example, there's an active command just above. Does the passive transformation by the renewing of the mind take place apart from our actively abiding in Him and following Him in true discipleship actively walking in Spirit as commanded and enabled by Him under grace?Some of us have seen this active-passive sense to be tied to the sovereignty of God and the will of man cooperative relationship that our Father is developing in us as creatures created in His likeness and the fullness of which was revealed to us in His perfectly obedient first-born Son who always willingly said what He heard our Father say and always willingly did what He saw our Father do.
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That's because you place the onus upon the individual, and not God. Jesus did what He saw the Father doing. He followed God's lead. We are sheep. We are to follow the Shepherd. If we are yoked to Him, when we feel the tug, we move. It's little different from the pillar of fire moving for the children of Israel, except we move by faith and not by sight. But this requires an intimacy with God, whereas following a pillar of fire does not.
Because you seem to be suggesting doing His commands is necessary to being saved when, even during the time when the keeping of the Law was the way to work out one's salvation, it didn't save anyone.
Have I not been saying all along we must rest in Him and be led of His Spirit? I don't know why you are asking such a question. What will you add to that? Do you think the Spirit will lead you to ignore the hungry or turn your back on those who grieve? Of course you don't! What ever you say or do will be a reflection of your faith, or lack of it, but anything done outside that realm will be of your own doing and worthless.
Have I not been saying all along we must rest in Him and be led of His Spirit? I don't know why you are asking such a question. What will you add to that? Do you think the Spirit will lead you to ignore the hungry or turn your back on those who grieve? Of course you don't! What ever you say or do will be a reflection of your faith, or lack of it, but anything done outside that realm will be of your own doing and worthless.
If faith and obedience are parallel, then works becomes the addition to faith-obedience, not obedience-works to faith. Faith-obedience for initial salvation becomes faith-obedience-works post salvation
I suppose it's partly this quantitative vs. qualitative classifying that I'm not fond of. Faith can be weak and thus strong. Faith can increase. Are these expressions of quantity or quality or both? 2Cor10:15 definition for increase or grow or however it's translated in various editions: 1. to cause to become greater in extent, size, state, or quality, grow someth., cause to grow, increase (BDAG). How is or can spiritual growth not be a higher quality of life?
I suppose it's partly this quantitative vs. qualitative classifying that I'm not fond of. Faith can be weak and thus strong. Faith can increase. Are these expressions of quantity or quality or both? 2Cor10:15 definition for increase or grow or however it's translated in various editions: 1. to cause to become greater in extent, size, state, or quality, grow someth., cause to grow, increase (BDAG). How is or can spiritual growth not be a higher quality of life?
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In part based upon what we're discussing now re: endurance and maybe other things we could be heading into.
For example, I've posted what Rev14 says about endurance which in essence is enduring in bowing to God even unto death vs. bowing to the beast. If one does not endure in bowing to God and revolts and bows to the beast, does he simply lose rewards?
As I've said, based upon looking at endurance more completely in the Text, I see Jesus' statement re: endure to the end will be saved as being a principle extending beyond that eschatological context.
For example, I've posted what Rev14 says about endurance which in essence is enduring in bowing to God even unto death vs. bowing to the beast. If one does not endure in bowing to God and revolts and bows to the beast, does he simply lose rewards?
As I've said, based upon looking at endurance more completely in the Text, I see Jesus' statement re: endure to the end will be saved as being a principle extending beyond that eschatological context.
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