Loss of salvation???
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See this is THE crux of our disagreement, and having struggled through this very issue I also to did not understand how we could "choose" Jesus and then be robbed of free will and not be able to "unchoose" Him if I felt like it. I didn't see how a loving God takes us in "free" but makes us His slaves. I'm with you, when I thought of things like you are here I believed the same thing you're saying. I get you and think that it makes perfect sense. The thing is you are wrong like I was.
The way He opened my eyes to this I am sure you can just dismiss because it has to do with how He saved me specifically, and I don't use that to "prove my point" because I understand that others shouldn't just believe what I say anyway, but I thought this EXACT same way when God reminded me that when I did it the way you're describing, I heard the gospel and responded to the Alter call, I repeated the prayer with all my heart, with all my free will I chose Jesus and was declared saved. Guess what? I wasn't saved. Then a motorcycle wreak turned my world upside down I tried my best to work through it, but thinking I was "saved" already I found it completely lacking and unhelpful and after 2 yeas left me hopeless. When I hit my knees I did not believe in God anymore if I ever had at all, but I hit my knees seeing very clearly where "my way" had lead me and I quit it. I had no idea what was actually happening at the time because I had already been told I was a Christian so was not seeking in that direction anymore. For this 2 year period I had uncontrollable suicidal thoughts at least every five minutes of every day for 2 years solid. The next day after I woke up and went to work it was lunchtime when it hit me "I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT KILLING MYSELF ALL DAY!!!!!" Right then and there on that spot I knew two things, #1 Whatever this was it was from God.#2 Jesus is His Son.
He led me strait to His word and John, by the time I hit chapter 3 I KNEW I had been born-again, or spiritually resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit. THIS is the part I find missing from what you write. See I too at first thought I chose Him, but th truth is when I did that I was a false convert deceived into thinking I followed Jesus, yet did NOTHING to further the Kingdom. However when He saved me in truth, in POWER I woke up the next day all new. No more suicidal thoughts, no more video games, no more porn, and not because I decided to quit these things but because He empowered me to put them down and I'm now in His Spirit in truth to be led to all truth by Him. You falsely believe we have a will that puts salvation on our shoulders, you rob that glory from God and in turn falsely believe we have this "freewill" to walk away from Him too. It's just not true and foreign to scripture for those with eyes to see. We are slaves either way. Slaves to sin or slaves to obedience leading to righteousness.
I know you guys hate Calvin and this seems to blind you from understanding certain truths that have nothing to do with him or the system named after him, these are just things the bible clearly teaches and that makes some peoples minds shut down in hate and start the recording that never ends or leads anywhere good.
I am sure you'll disagree, but you mistake here is a terribly low view of the power of God that I believe can only come from those who've never experienced or known it. Have you truly been born-again? Spiritually resurrected?
The way He opened my eyes to this I am sure you can just dismiss because it has to do with how He saved me specifically, and I don't use that to "prove my point" because I understand that others shouldn't just believe what I say anyway, but I thought this EXACT same way when God reminded me that when I did it the way you're describing, I heard the gospel and responded to the Alter call, I repeated the prayer with all my heart, with all my free will I chose Jesus and was declared saved. Guess what? I wasn't saved. Then a motorcycle wreak turned my world upside down I tried my best to work through it, but thinking I was "saved" already I found it completely lacking and unhelpful and after 2 yeas left me hopeless. When I hit my knees I did not believe in God anymore if I ever had at all, but I hit my knees seeing very clearly where "my way" had lead me and I quit it. I had no idea what was actually happening at the time because I had already been told I was a Christian so was not seeking in that direction anymore. For this 2 year period I had uncontrollable suicidal thoughts at least every five minutes of every day for 2 years solid. The next day after I woke up and went to work it was lunchtime when it hit me "I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT KILLING MYSELF ALL DAY!!!!!" Right then and there on that spot I knew two things, #1 Whatever this was it was from God.#2 Jesus is His Son.
He led me strait to His word and John, by the time I hit chapter 3 I KNEW I had been born-again, or spiritually resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit. THIS is the part I find missing from what you write. See I too at first thought I chose Him, but th truth is when I did that I was a false convert deceived into thinking I followed Jesus, yet did NOTHING to further the Kingdom. However when He saved me in truth, in POWER I woke up the next day all new. No more suicidal thoughts, no more video games, no more porn, and not because I decided to quit these things but because He empowered me to put them down and I'm now in His Spirit in truth to be led to all truth by Him. You falsely believe we have a will that puts salvation on our shoulders, you rob that glory from God and in turn falsely believe we have this "freewill" to walk away from Him too. It's just not true and foreign to scripture for those with eyes to see. We are slaves either way. Slaves to sin or slaves to obedience leading to righteousness.
I know you guys hate Calvin and this seems to blind you from understanding certain truths that have nothing to do with him or the system named after him, these are just things the bible clearly teaches and that makes some peoples minds shut down in hate and start the recording that never ends or leads anywhere good.
I am sure you'll disagree, but you mistake here is a terribly low view of the power of God that I believe can only come from those who've never experienced or known it. Have you truly been born-again? Spiritually resurrected?
And this is very curious indeed.
Both the calvies and the armies focus on the creature. What, how, why and when from the creature.
And the Bible/His word is focused on the Lord Jesus Christ. What,how, why and when from the CREATOR.
Religion is ALWAYS man focused. And NEVER Creator(the Lord Jesus Christ) focused.
Both the calvies and the armies focus on the creature. What, how, why and when from the creature.
And the Bible/His word is focused on the Lord Jesus Christ. What,how, why and when from the CREATOR.
Religion is ALWAYS man focused. And NEVER Creator(the Lord Jesus Christ) focused.
So, if they're describing the Christian, then they're describing what the Christian does and anyone not doing those things over time is not a Christian, correct, or no and why?
If correct, one must be enduring if one is a Christian, correct, or no and why?
So, when we look at the hundreds of commands in the NC we don't have to look at them as what we must do in a cooperative relationship with God, but as what we will be doing in a cooperative relationship with God. So, commands are not really commands to keep but instructions on what we are and will be doing.
So, the command to flee certain detrimental things and the contrasting command to pursue - to move rapidly and decisively toward the objective of endurance - is nothing we need to concern ourselves with because it just describes what we will do completely apart from any effort on our part enabled by the capacities and abilities God gives us to will and work what pleases Him? So, our will and our work are ultimately not important because it's all just describing us?
And we can look around us and see all Christians doing these things and any that are not may be a short time in the faith, or long time but in some phase of discipline for lack of growth, or not really Christian, or????
If correct, one must be enduring if one is a Christian, correct, or no and why?
So, when we look at the hundreds of commands in the NC we don't have to look at them as what we must do in a cooperative relationship with God, but as what we will be doing in a cooperative relationship with God. So, commands are not really commands to keep but instructions on what we are and will be doing.
So, the command to flee certain detrimental things and the contrasting command to pursue - to move rapidly and decisively toward the objective of endurance - is nothing we need to concern ourselves with because it just describes what we will do completely apart from any effort on our part enabled by the capacities and abilities God gives us to will and work what pleases Him? So, our will and our work are ultimately not important because it's all just describing us?
And we can look around us and see all Christians doing these things and any that are not may be a short time in the faith, or long time but in some phase of discipline for lack of growth, or not really Christian, or????
Well, Paul indicates that it is important not to lose track of what "they" refers to (saving faith, then faithful works per Eph.2:8-10),
so as not to slip into earning salvation via works.
It seems problematic to view spiritual growth as qualitatively different from conversion
rather than as analogous to building muscle mass.
so as not to slip into earning salvation via works.
It seems problematic to view spiritual growth as qualitatively different from conversion
rather than as analogous to building muscle mass.
If I may, the Gospel is #3 below:
The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:
- There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
- Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
- Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
- Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
- Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
From some reason I keep recalling the words of R.B. Thieme, when he used to say...
(In regards to the spiritual walk with Christ...)
Someone can be a genius.
But, if he becomes arrogant?
It will turn him into being a moron.
I think the Colonel was right on target with that one.
Humility trumps high IQ.
grace and peace ..............
(In regards to the spiritual walk with Christ...)
Someone can be a genius.
But, if he becomes arrogant?
It will turn him into being a moron.
I think the Colonel was right on target with that one.
Humility trumps high IQ.
grace and peace ..............
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There is a tradition of interpretation that John MacArthur was known for a few decades ago that resulted in many of his students becoming known as "fruit inspectors" because they were seen to be inspecting professing Christians for the fruits of the Spirit to evaluate whether or not they were true Christians. The ones I encountered were very critical and seemingly high-minded and very critical of any other teaching system.
So, all true Christians will have them as products of Salvation?
So professing Christians who are not enduring [in something] and not obeying [or not enduring in obeying] are not true Christians or just immature because not long term in the Faith yet, or long term under discipline at some phase, or??? I'm leaving out loss of salvation because I don't think you accept this potential.
So, all true Christians will have them as products of Salvation?
So professing Christians who are not enduring [in something] and not obeying [or not enduring in obeying] are not true Christians or just immature because not long term in the Faith yet, or long term under discipline at some phase, or??? I'm leaving out loss of salvation because I don't think you accept this potential.
