Is Paul or Jesus your main guide?
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You're thinking about it in the wrong way. They speak from the same voice but on different perspectives. You can't understand Jesus without Paul. You can't understand Jesus without the entire New Testament. Paul does not contradict Christ. If one perceive a contradiction, it is one's understanding that needs to be reevaluated, not whether Paul or Jesus should take priority.
Over and over the scripture commands the believers to follow Paul. Paul was given special revelation to instruct the body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. 17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. 17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
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But the command to follow Paul leads us right back to making Christ our priority, for that is what it means to follow Paul.
Christ is God, Paul is taught by Christ. Christ is the God, the leader, the teacher. There is no controversy between the two except the way obedience is presented. Both agree that obedience to God is good and necessary, but in the gospels it is front and center. Paul makes such as the impossibility of working our way to salvation, or that the law of Moses is gone and now the law is through Christ the most written about. What Paul says about it is not wrong, but Paul makes these things front and center, not obedience.
Christ is God, Paul is taught by Christ. Christ is the God, the leader, the teacher. There is no controversy between the two except the way obedience is presented. Both agree that obedience to God is good and necessary, but in the gospels it is front and center. Paul makes such as the impossibility of working our way to salvation, or that the law of Moses is gone and now the law is through Christ the most written about. What Paul says about it is not wrong, but Paul makes these things front and center, not obedience.
This was my experience. I had concluded that scripture was truth and if I saw a controversy it was not scripture that disagreed with scripture, it was that my understanding was wrong.
Paul once sent me to months of several hours a day of study trying to make sense of what he said about the law and what other scriptures said. I even plowed through four secular histories of that time to see what the men on the street thought the law of Moses was. I found that scripture all agreed, but Paul did a poor job explaining what law he refers to. Paul thought that his letters were for contemporary men of his time, they knew exactly what Paul meant by the law of Moses.
Paul once sent me to months of several hours a day of study trying to make sense of what he said about the law and what other scriptures said. I even plowed through four secular histories of that time to see what the men on the street thought the law of Moses was. I found that scripture all agreed, but Paul did a poor job explaining what law he refers to. Paul thought that his letters were for contemporary men of his time, they knew exactly what Paul meant by the law of Moses.
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When it comes to the Law people are SUPER dumb. There MUST still be a vail over their minds, is my conclusion. Because the Solution is absolutely simple.
A whole civilization followed the Law for thousands of years and that way didn't work. If it DID work then there was no need for the Lord Jesus.
Since it didn't work then a whole NEW WAY needed to be made for us. This New Way is the Lord Jesus Christ. Which Paul explains over and over.
Lots and Lots of dummies point back to the Law and say "This is what God wants". No, dummies. That's not what God wants. God wants you to see that you can't follow that way. Just like the ancient people before you couldn't do it. You need help that only God provides.
Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Does Paul contradict Christ? No, of course not. Christ says the same thing.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
A whole civilization followed the Law for thousands of years and that way didn't work. If it DID work then there was no need for the Lord Jesus.
Since it didn't work then a whole NEW WAY needed to be made for us. This New Way is the Lord Jesus Christ. Which Paul explains over and over.
Lots and Lots of dummies point back to the Law and say "This is what God wants". No, dummies. That's not what God wants. God wants you to see that you can't follow that way. Just like the ancient people before you couldn't do it. You need help that only God provides.
Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Does Paul contradict Christ? No, of course not. Christ says the same thing.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
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SO WRONG!
Understanding jesus and His Gospel can be achieved by any person with the reading comprehension of the average 4th Grader. jesus taught in simplistic terms SO THAT HE WOULD BE UNDERSTOOD!
It is true that Paul does not contradict Jesus, but the idea that we need Pauls Epistles to understand Jesus and His Gospel is just plain silly!
Understanding jesus and His Gospel can be achieved by any person with the reading comprehension of the average 4th Grader. jesus taught in simplistic terms SO THAT HE WOULD BE UNDERSTOOD!
It is true that Paul does not contradict Jesus, but the idea that we need Pauls Epistles to understand Jesus and His Gospel is just plain silly!
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"X'ed"?
You mean I expressed disagreement using an icon? I somehow feel people wouldn't take such offense to the disagree icon if it was represented by papers nailed to a door instead.
It wasn't my intention to evoke an emotional reaction, only to note that I disagree with the position you expressed. Feedback is always appreciated, I will try to rephrase my explanation when I have a chance.
You mean I expressed disagreement using an icon? I somehow feel people wouldn't take such offense to the disagree icon if it was represented by papers nailed to a door instead.
It wasn't my intention to evoke an emotional reaction, only to note that I disagree with the position you expressed. Feedback is always appreciated, I will try to rephrase my explanation when I have a chance.
And then Paul send out Timothy as an example of one who is faithful in the Lord.
You outline a summary of what is lost in the church today: the building of God's House is organic and relational. We would rather argue doctrine than be, ourselves, tried in the fire as a suitable carrier of grace.
And notice that Timothy is Paul's "son". This is not a fleshly connection but a spiritual one. Paul had no natural children but, for Timothy, Paul was the father of his faith. God is the Father of our spirits. The Roman church made this relationship (father and son) into an office. Foundationally, it can only be a relationship of love and devotion with oneness of spirit in Christ as its core. The Holy Spirit is responsible for connecting fathers and sons, not seminaries or schools.
You outline a summary of what is lost in the church today: the building of God's House is organic and relational. We would rather argue doctrine than be, ourselves, tried in the fire as a suitable carrier of grace.
And notice that Timothy is Paul's "son". This is not a fleshly connection but a spiritual one. Paul had no natural children but, for Timothy, Paul was the father of his faith. God is the Father of our spirits. The Roman church made this relationship (father and son) into an office. Foundationally, it can only be a relationship of love and devotion with oneness of spirit in Christ as its core. The Holy Spirit is responsible for connecting fathers and sons, not seminaries or schools.
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Understanding scripture is gradient in many ways. A 4th grader might be able to understand it to one extent but an adult with worldly experiences may understand it in a deeper way in a sense. I doubt the average 4th grader would be able to explain why Jesus calls a gentile a dog, or the nuances of scripture that are being cross referenced by everything that Christ says.
The conversation comes up from time to time about red-letter Christians and how without the entire body of scripture it is easy to misunderstand concepts, in the same way that the Pharisees took only part of scripture and expanded upon it in a way that eventually contradicted the intended message of scripture.
With the law written in the hearts and minds, is it possible to only read the red letters in the Bible and come to a correct understanding? Yes. Is it possible with the law written in heart and mind that without any exposure to the Bible at all that one could come to a correct understanding? Hypothetically, yes.
If we don't need the Bible to understand the new covenant, why do we need the Bible? Because we check our understanding against the Bible to make sure we haven't wandered away from a good understanding. All scripture is good for learning and reinforcing a correct understanding. Many feel uncomfortable with what Paul says in some cases because their understanding is at odds with what scripture is trying to convey.
Are parables simple or complex? Are parables easily understood, difficult to understand, or dynamic and layered (both easy and difficult)? Jesus spoke through many parables and many metaphors. We see the bulk of interpretative disputes are about what exactly each parable would mean. I disagree with the interpretation that Jesus taught in a simplistic terms.
The conversation comes up from time to time about red-letter Christians and how without the entire body of scripture it is easy to misunderstand concepts, in the same way that the Pharisees took only part of scripture and expanded upon it in a way that eventually contradicted the intended message of scripture.
With the law written in the hearts and minds, is it possible to only read the red letters in the Bible and come to a correct understanding? Yes. Is it possible with the law written in heart and mind that without any exposure to the Bible at all that one could come to a correct understanding? Hypothetically, yes.
If we don't need the Bible to understand the new covenant, why do we need the Bible? Because we check our understanding against the Bible to make sure we haven't wandered away from a good understanding. All scripture is good for learning and reinforcing a correct understanding. Many feel uncomfortable with what Paul says in some cases because their understanding is at odds with what scripture is trying to convey.
Are parables simple or complex? Are parables easily understood, difficult to understand, or dynamic and layered (both easy and difficult)? Jesus spoke through many parables and many metaphors. We see the bulk of interpretative disputes are about what exactly each parable would mean. I disagree with the interpretation that Jesus taught in a simplistic terms.
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yeah we are to follow Christ because he is all three in one it’s strange it seems like your trying to seperate Jesus from the Holy Ghost ? It’s his spirit is the things brother he is all three in one
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
Colossians 2:9 KJV
that’s the point the Holy Spirit of Jesus preached the gospel. And will always bring to remembrance his word in the gospel.
“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
John 14:23-26 KJV
it’s not like one can follow the Holy Spirit without following Jesus is what I’m saying we can’t come to God if we don’t follow Jesus the Holy Ghost is the spirit of Christ in us not a seperate person from Jesus it’s his spirit sent from heaven after he was glorified in heaven
The Holy Ghost will never teach anything contrary to what Jesus taught
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
Colossians 2:9 KJV
that’s the point the Holy Spirit of Jesus preached the gospel. And will always bring to remembrance his word in the gospel.
“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
John 14:23-26 KJV
it’s not like one can follow the Holy Spirit without following Jesus is what I’m saying we can’t come to God if we don’t follow Jesus the Holy Ghost is the spirit of Christ in us not a seperate person from Jesus it’s his spirit sent from heaven after he was glorified in heaven
The Holy Ghost will never teach anything contrary to what Jesus taught
Your interpretation of scripture does not agree with what I have found in the word. You say God failed when God had Moses give the law. God!! failed!! The law he gave was a law given by a holy God, a God who could create all the earth and humans and to you this holy God gave a failure of a law. I don't think so. The law is from a God who is spirit, and the true law that is eternal like our God is eternal, is spiritual.
To help mankind live in harmony with the law God gave fleshly explanations and helps to man. As an example, being circumcised was important and that meant cutting the fleshly part of living and marking ourselves as being God's people not people of the flesh. They were given commands to help them do and understand, the commands acted as a schoolmaster acted leading the children to school. Christ put these laws in our hearts, we are not to use the schoolmasters any longer.
So by interpreting scripture differently you do what scripture tells you not to do, you call people dummies. Scripture says not to even call them fools.
You are, however, correct when you say Paul does not contradict Christ.
To help mankind live in harmony with the law God gave fleshly explanations and helps to man. As an example, being circumcised was important and that meant cutting the fleshly part of living and marking ourselves as being God's people not people of the flesh. They were given commands to help them do and understand, the commands acted as a schoolmaster acted leading the children to school. Christ put these laws in our hearts, we are not to use the schoolmasters any longer.
So by interpreting scripture differently you do what scripture tells you not to do, you call people dummies. Scripture says not to even call them fools.
You are, however, correct when you say Paul does not contradict Christ.
amen to that !!!
it’s a veil when we try to make the two seperate covenants into one because thier directives are contrary it dreates a conflict “ do I obey the law of Moses and what it says ? Or do I believe Christ and what he said ?”
Moses mediated the old covenant but his mediation was cut off when Christ fulfilled the promises in the law so that now only Christ can mediate a relationship with God we have to repent of the old and new born in the new
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
1 Timothy 2:3-6 KJV
the old was an earthly pattern for the new like a shadow cast by God over the earth but now he actually has arrived in Christ speaking forth salvation that was always promised beforehand the truth has arrived out of the shadows of the ot
“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
Acts 3:18-24 KJV
he was always promising a messiah to come , a covenant to come and a word to come that would be required by God and it’s not Moses words required , but Jesus words that are Gods requirement to believe
it’s a veil when we try to make the two seperate covenants into one because thier directives are contrary it dreates a conflict “ do I obey the law of Moses and what it says ? Or do I believe Christ and what he said ?”
Moses mediated the old covenant but his mediation was cut off when Christ fulfilled the promises in the law so that now only Christ can mediate a relationship with God we have to repent of the old and new born in the new
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
1 Timothy 2:3-6 KJV
the old was an earthly pattern for the new like a shadow cast by God over the earth but now he actually has arrived in Christ speaking forth salvation that was always promised beforehand the truth has arrived out of the shadows of the ot
“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
Acts 3:18-24 KJV
he was always promising a messiah to come , a covenant to come and a word to come that would be required by God and it’s not Moses words required , but Jesus words that are Gods requirement to believe
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