Is it a sin to drink alcohol

[presidente]

That is the deception.

Do you think deacons in the Bible are bad then?

 

[Jackson123]

.,

"...The English word "wine" comes from the Proto-Germanic *winam, an early borrowing from the Latin vinum, "wine" or "(grape) vine", itself derived from the Proto-Indo-European stem *win-o- (cf. Hittite: wiyana; Lycian: oino; Ancient Greek: οἶνος oinos; Aeolic Greek: ϝοῖνος woinos).[5][6]..."[Wikipedia, Wine], and therefore, simply means anything 'of the vine', without reference to anything of alcoholic or fermentation content, although it may include such in one of its definitions.

So you believe wine in 1 timothy 5 mean grape juice?

 

[presidente]

2Ti_4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.

Wrong epistle of Timothy. And there is no mention of Luke when it comes to the wine advice.

Why would wine mean unfermented grape juice.

Are you being serious? Your arguments are pretty dumb.

 

[WithinReason]

Wine actually comes from grapes, from plants.

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Psalm 104 says this:​

14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.

Why would God specifically allow Israelites to buy and consume strong drink as a part of one of the tithes if it were forbidden?

Addressed already:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-19#post-4201996

Deuteronomy 14
26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Addressed already:

[1] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-6#post-4199834

[2] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-6#post-4199837

[3] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-6#post-4199838

[4] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-6#post-4199841

And people wonder why I put so much in print. Much easier to reference later, when the same texts appear over and over, because persons do not desire to read through the thread to learn, but simply dive in to speak.

 

[presidente]

They falsely accused Jesus of being a "winebibber", a "drunkard" and "gluttonous":

Matthew 11:19 KJB - The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Luke 7:34 KJB - The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Yes was falsely accused of being a winebibber. His drinking of wine was not sinful. His opponents exaggerated. Because he ate and drank with others, they made his drinking out to be in excess, and also His eating, but that was not the case. But Jesus said the Son of man came eating and drinking. He did not deny drinking wine, here.

 

[Jackson123]

Drinking Red Wine Is Good for Gut Bacteria
Moderate Intake of Some Red Wines May Improve Health, Study Shows

https://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20120524/drinking-red-wine-is-good-for-gut-bacteria

1 timothy 5


23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.


Seem to me what Paul mean by wine in this verse is alvoholic wine.

Base oN study moderat wine God for but bactery. Red wine in this study is alcoholic wine

 

[WithinReason]

'Intoxicated' doesn't mean 'toxic' any more than left-handed people are sinister, by the English meaning of sinister.

Basketball must not have anything to do with a basket or a ball by the same 'logic'. Word scaffolding is very key in scripture.

As for 'sinister' it is not matters natural, but matters spiritual (thus ill-omened), as the 'right hand' is in scripture.

I already provided the definition of "intoxicated":

[1] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-8#post-4200051

 

[WithinReason]

His drinking of wine was not sinful.

Of course not, as he drank the pure juice of the grape ("wine"), the fruit of the vine, and not alcohol, which is sin, and linked with woe, and sorrow, death, and the dragon.

 

[presidente]

Let us consider a very abused and misunderstood text [Deuteronomy 14:26] and see what marvelous light is shining in it on this subject -

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,Deuteronomy 14:26​

And those which quote this text do so out of its marvelous typological context and even historical setting. They which utilize this text to say that they may drink alcoholic content, do not really understand what they are saying in using this text, for the “strong drink” was not to be consumed by the purchaser, but rather they were to be poured out unto the LORD as a “drink offering” which was associated with the “sin”and “burnt offerings”.

Your excuses are ridiculous. It says 'thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God..' This was a tithe they consumed themselves.

The pure Wine [blood of the grape of the vine] was Christ's pure blood, being poured out for the world, and the Strong Drink, which is alcoholic in content was representative of sin, and the wrath of God being poured out upon Christ Jesus, since He was made to be sin for us, who knew no sin. Those who desire to drink the alcoholic Strong Drink, are in reality saying they will drink down the wrath of God for their own sins.

I see no reason to accept your underlying assumption that wine is inherently evil. That's the idea, right? What reason is there to accept your interpretation? Why should we think that your strained reinterpretations of words in the Bible to fit your teetotaler view are what the Hebrew words really meant? And why didn't anyone who actually spoke the languages figure this out before teetotalerism came on the scene?

Let's take a look at all of the texts Deuteronomy 14:2,3,21-26 [and context] which surround this, and know for certainty. Deuteronomy 14, is in the same context as Deuteronomy 12, and the giving of the delineations between that which was Holy and that which was not, between that which was Clean and that which was Unclean.

These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth. Deuteronomy 12:1​

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Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: Deuteronomy 12:2​

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And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. Deuteronomy 12:3​

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Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 12:4​

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But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, evenunto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come: Deuteronomy 12:5​

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And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks: Deuteronomy 12:6​

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And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God hath blessed thee. Deuteronomy 12:7​

Notice now specifically in Deuteronomy 12:8, that the Children of God, were never to do after the manner of the heathen nations that they were to dispossess, and neither were they to do what was right in their own eyes:

Ye shall not do after allthe things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever isright in his own eyes. Deuteronomy 12:8​

The people that worshipped the false gods in the land they were to possess, would also offer drink offerings [Isaiah 57:6; Jeremiah 19:13; 32:29; 44:19; Ezekiel 20:28] to their gods [devils: Deuteronomy 32:17] in a perversion of the type given by God, but they would also drink of it, like unto Belial, Bacchus, etc, for instance see the case of Hannah, and the strong drink associated with Belial, in connection, and the pouring out of her soul before the Lord, a type:

And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth. 1 Samuel 1:12​

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Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken. 1 Samuel 1:13​

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And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee. 1 Samuel 1:14​

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And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I ama woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD. 1 Samuel 1:15​

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Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto. 1 Samuel 1:16​

The men who spoke ill of Saul after he was anointed were called 'sons of Belial.' Your argument doesn't hold much water. The fact that you mentioned Bacchus when speaking of religions in the Levant would seem to confirm my suspicion that you just make your commentary up as you read, and that you just try to spin passages to support your teetotaler theories, thinking it is wisdom to do so.

 

[presidente]

Basketball must not have anything to do with a basket or a ball by the same 'logic'. Word scaffolding is very key in scripture.

As for 'sinister' it is not matters natural, but matters spiritual (thus ill-omened), as the 'right hand' is in scripture.

I already provided the definition of "intoxicated":

[1] - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...n-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-8#post-4200051

The question is... why? Why would you post dictionary definitions that have nothing to do with what the Biblical passages mean? It's just space-wasting posts. We know what 'intoxicated' means. It doesn't mean 'toxic' either, though there is an etymological connection. Moses and Jesus didn't go around speaking to people modern English, which didn't exist yet.

Etymologies of English words have little to do with this discussion. I studied about Proto-IndonEuropean derivations as an undergrad. That kind of stuff is irrelevant to our discussion.

Occasionally quoting Thayers, Strong's, etc. for a Greek word makes sense because most of the audience here does not know Greek. Looking up etymologies of English words like wine and posting it here the way you have been doing is a waste of bandwidth. It contributes nothind proves nothing.

You had some other stuff in the post, too, like

... Alcohol causes arrhythmias during life, including prolongation of the QT interval, which is associated with sudden cardiac death [2]. ..." - US National Library of Medicine; National Institutes of Health-Sudden Unexpected Death in Alcohol Misuse—An Unrecognized Public Health Issue?

We can see by the title that the article is about alcohol MISUSE, not moderate use. Most of the posters on the thread are not in favor of misusing alcohol. The scripture speaks negatively of 'excess of wine.'

I Peter 4:3
For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

Why doesn't he condemn drinking wine in general?

There there are those deacons.

I Timothy 3
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

Notice the deacons should not be given to much wine. Now, if drinking any wine at all were wrong, Paul would be negligent here. Notice he doesn't say that deacons could be a little doubletongues, a little greedy, or hold to the mystery of the faith with a conscience that is just a little dirty. If drinking wine in moderation is so bad, why would Paul allow just a little badness when it comes to wine but not the rest.

Notice the deacon can meet this threshelod of not being given to MUCH wine and still be blameless. So one can be blameless and still drink in moderation.

 

[presidente]

Basketball must not have anything to do with a basket or a ball by the same 'logic'. Word scaffolding is very key in scripture.

Btw, I was talking about looking up words every fully developed speaker knows in the English dictionary. It's not like we are talking about a word like 'pedantic' either. There are lots of words people look up. 'Wine' isn't one we need definitions for. And trying to find spiritual meanings about the interpretation of scripture from the words Daniel Webster uses doesn't make much sense.

But while you are talking about definitions of words, some compound words are closely related to the words they are made of. Some words are closely related to their etymologies. Others are not. Sinister comes from Latin for left-handed. But when we call someone left-handed in English, we aren't calling them sinister, and if we call them sinister, we are not calling them left-handed.

 

[presidente]

"...The English word "wine" comes from the Proto-Germanic *winam, an early borrowing from the Latin vinum, "wine" or "(grape) vine", itself derived from the Proto-Indo-European stem *win-o- (cf. Hittite: wiyana; Lycian: oino; Ancient Greek: οἶνος oinos; Aeolic Greek: ϝοῖνος woinos).[5][6]..."[Wikipedia, Wine], and therefore, simply means anything 'of the vine', without reference to anything of alcoholic or fermentation content, although it may include such in one of its definitions.​

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Do you have a daughter? My Historical Linguistics, Sanskrit, and Classical Armenian professor, a ProtoIndonEuropean expert said 'daughter' is believed to have been derived from the ProtoIndonEuropean for 'little milker.'

So that means if your daughter doesn't milk a cow, goat, etc., she isn't really your daughter. I should call child protective services to pick her up right now.

Your argument is an illogical argument using etymology. If you actually believe that 'wine' in English includes non-alcoholic beverages, that's plain silly.

What are engaged in might be considered sophistry, if it were clever enough. Someone would have to be pretty gullible to accept your line of reasoning here.​

 

[tanakh]

There is nothing wrong in drinking alcohol in moderation but according to Paul we are not supposed to eat or drink anything that leads others into sin. One thing I cant understand is why some Churches use things like Ribena in communion as a substitute. Havn't they ever heard of Grape Juice?

 

[lightbearer]

Then show me please any bible verse which forbits to drink alcohol. ( btw wine contains alcohol) And I hope you must not use medicine which contains alcohol.

HE hast made us unto our God kings and priests: A chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that we should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. WE As lively stones, are built up a spiritual house. Upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. The temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
(Rev 5:10; 1:6; 1Pet 2:5,9; Eph 2:20-22 1 Cor 6:19)

What was the council for Kings and Priests?

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.(Prov 31:4,5 KJV)

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
(Lev 10:9 KJV)

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
(Lev 10:9-10 KJV)
Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
(Eze 44:21 KJV)

So We see that we as Kings are not to drink wine or strong drink at all lest their judgment be perverted. And we as Priests are not to drink wine or strong drink before we entered the inner court yard and the Tabernacle of the Congregation, the Temple.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(1Cor 3:16)

 

[Jackson123]

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
(Lev 10:9-10 KJV)
Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.

Seem to me this verse is for Israel in the OT in the context of not drunk and couse problem in the temple

But If we have problem with stomach, Paul advised timothy to drink little wine

This advised consistent with modern study that say moderat Red wine good for gut bacteria

 

[WithinReason]

I Timothy 3
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

Notice the deacons should not be given to much wine. Now, if drinking any wine at all were wrong, Paul would be negligent here.

If you had done a word study on that text, and connected it to Titus, in both contexts, you would understand it is not speaking about 'amount' of alcohol. It is speaking about not being altogether slaves (even constantly thinking on) of alcohol, as many of the pagans, Gentiles (in their various temples, and false worship, etc) and even some Jews were. It is stating that a Deacon (etc) could not hold that office, while being enslaved altogether to alcohol.

When you desire to see that word study and context, you let me know, otherwise, please feel free to study to shew thyself approved unto God, and let go your inebriated theology. You have 'beer-goggle' theology.

 

[posthuman]

Strong's Concordance,

... is a concordance, not a dictionary or a lexicon.

 

[WithinReason]

... is a concordance, not a dictionary or a lexicon.

Yet, even Strong's shows, in very brief what I stated as being true, that being "drunk" with alcohol is not the only meaning of methuo (etc), thus here is a Lexicon:

"μεθύσκω+V 3-2-16-9-7=37Gn 9,21; 43,34; Is 34,5.7; 49,26 A: to make drunk [τινα] 2 Sm 11,13; to make drunk (metaph.), to drench [τι] Dt 32,42; to fill with [τινάτινος] (metaph.) Lam 3,15; to give to drink [abs.] Ps 22(23),5; to satiate [τινα] Sir 1,16; id. [τι] Jer 38(31),14; to saturate [τι] Ps 64(65),11; to water, to drench [τι] Sir 24,31 P: to be drunk Gn 9,21; id.(metaph.) Jdt 6,4; to be filled (with food) [τινι] Hos 14,8 τὸνποιήσαντάσεκαὶμεθύσκοντάσεἀπὸτῶνἀγαθῶναὐτοῦhe who made you and satisfies you with every good thing of his Sir 32,13 *Is 7,20 μεμεθυσμένῳdrunk, drenched (in blood)-⋄שׁכר for MT ⋄שׂכרhired; *Hos 14,8 (ζήσονταικαὶ) μεθυσθήσονται(they shall live and) be satiated-(⋄חיה and) רוה for MT ⋄חיה (pi.) they shall growCf. HELBING 1928, 150; →TWNT "

μεθύω+V 0-4-6-2-0=121 Sm 1,13; 25,36; 1 Kgs 16,9; 21(20),16; Is 19,14 pass. of μεθύσκω; to be drunk 1 Sm 1,13; to be watered, to be drenched (of a garden) Is 58,11 → TWNT - http://www.glasovipisma.pbf.rs/phocadownload/knjige/greek lexicon for the septuagint.pdf

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Do you think deacons in the Bible are bad then?

Qualifications for Elders

For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to Welch’s grape juice, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.[Titus 1:7-9]

Qualifications for Deacons

Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much Welch’s grape juice or fond of sordid gain, but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.[1 Timothy 3:8-10]


Taken from the @WithinReason ‘s “Pharisee Edition of the Holy Bible”.

 

[WithinReason]

Qualifications for Elders

For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to Welch’s grape juice, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.[Titus 1:7-9]

Qualifications for Deacons

Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much Welch’s grape juice or fond of sordid gain, but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.[1 Timothy 3:8-10]


Taken from the @WithinReason ‘s “Pharisee Edition of the Holy Bible”.

You misrepresented what I stated. Read what I stated again please, and if you are honest (up to you to make that call), then see I never said any such thing:

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"If you had done a word study on that text, and connected it to Titus, in both contexts, you would understand it is not speaking about 'amount' of alcohol. It is speaking about not being altogether slaves (even constantly thinking on) of alcohol, as many of the pagans, Gentiles (in their various temples, and false worship, etc) and even some Jews were. It is stating that a Deacon (etc) could not hold that office, while being enslaved altogether to alcohol.​

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When you desire to see that word study and context, you let me know, otherwise, please feel free to study to shew thyself approved unto God, and let go your inebriated theology. You have 'beer-goggle' theology. " - https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...-to-drink-alcohol.191061/page-29#post-4204433​

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I specifically said it was contextually speaking about alcohol in 1 Timothy 3.

Will you correct yourself about what I clearly stated? Or will you continue, as you have been?