Is having faith/belief obeying?

[studier]

I Googled Strong's Concordance for " work out" in Philippians 2:12.
Results:
Meaning
Strong's Concordance defines "katergazomai" as "to bring about a result by doing something, to achieve, to accomplish, to do".
Context
The verse in Philippians 2:12 says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..."
Interpretation
The phrase "work out" in this context is not about earning salvation, but rather about actively pursuing and living out the salvation believers already have in Christ.

I also recommend you checking out Martyn Lloyd Jones sermon on the subject. Another great sermon titled The Power of Christ Within on John 1:16 preached February 16, 1964 you might find helpful.

I've heard much of MLJ, Thanks.
Strong's says what I've kept saying.
Accomplishing does not mean earning.

 

[studier]

I don’t believe Jesus was saying that belief is a godly work they can do.
I believe Jesus was saying that God was working to testify that Jesus was his son in an effort to get them to believe.
I seems pretty obvious that the people who heard Jesus’s answer in John 6:29 thought that was what he said too.

“They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭30‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.6.30.KJV

So we're past the genitive issue or you're just saying it's God's work that men believe?

Will you paraphrase or explain what you see being said in 6:27-6:30?

 

[studier]

Keep reading your second quotation (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) again and again.

Explain?

 

[studier]

Look for the word "believes" in the verses below.

John 3:15
So that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:35
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 7:38
The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water'.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies,

John 11:26
And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law

John 12:44
Now Jesus cried out and said, “The one who believes in Me, does not believe only in Me, but also in Him who sent Me.

John 12:46
I have come as Light into the world, so that no one who believes in Me will remain in darkness.

John 14:12
Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

OK, what next? (don't see the word believes in last one BTW).

 

[studier]

salvation is a gift. grace is a gift.

no grace no obedience.

Don't see obedience stated in the premises. Not sure the syllogism works. All 3 on their own are interesting.

 

[studier]

and no obedience, no grace/salvation

Don't think the original syllogism was good but I do think all points have merit including yours but IB think some erroneously call it works salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

No, it's not obedience, but rather a conviction of the heart.

Rom 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved

Confessing that Jesus is Lord is a conviction of the heart, along with believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead. Its not about simply reciting the words, "Jesus is Lord" as a work for salvation but acknowledging and professing allegiance.

The word of faith is in our mouth and heart together (Romans 10:8-10) and confession is a confirmation of faith that is by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3) which is why we will be saved if we confess.

There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

 

[GWH]

Don't think the original syllogism was good but I do think all points have merit including yours but IB think some erroneously call it works salvation.

Yes, we should not divorce saving faith from sanctifying faith/fruit,
but stress that the former comes first in the process of being saved.
(horse-cart analogy :^)

 

[Cameron143]

I've heard much of MLJ, Thanks.
Strong's says what I've kept saying.
Accomplishing does not mean earning.

That was never the question. What is being accomplished is what is under consideration.

 

[mailmandan]

Keep reading your second quotation (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) again and again.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, we see that saving belief in the gospel holds fast to the gospel in contrast with believing in vain which is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

Those who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe the gospel). Their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

 

[studier]

That was never the question. What is being accomplished is what is under consideration.

Simple. Salvation is being accomplished if a Christian obeys the Apostolic command.

 

[Cameron143]

Simple. Salvation is being accomplished if a Christian obeys the Apostolic command.

Salvation is happening if God is at work. If salvation was accomplished by obedience, there is no need of Christ.

I am interested though, how are you keeping the commandment to be holy as God is holy? What are you doing to fulfill this commandment?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

but once a person enters into God's Salvation Plan by grace through faith, under grace in Christ in Spirit the Christian does good works in faith-obedience in cooperation with God that are a part of the Salvation Process pursuant to God's Salvation Plan.

Here we go Folks. And he claimed he is not trying to earn salvation..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Simple. Salvation is being accomplished if a Christian obeys the Apostolic command.

And again, Not salvation by Grace, he is trying to merit salvation by his own works.

 

[Inquisitor]

Salvation is happening if God is at work. If salvation was accomplished by obedience, there is no need of Christ.

I am interested though, how are you keeping the commandment to be holy as God is holy? What are you doing to fulfill this commandment?

Is that the commandment?

 

[Inquisitor]

Simple. Salvation is being accomplished if a Christian obeys the Apostolic command.

Is salvation a free gift given to a believer or is salvation a reward for a believer, that obeys some specified rules?

 

[Cameron143]

Is that the commandment?

1 Peter 1:16.

 

[studier]

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, we see that saving belief in the gospel holds fast to the gospel in contrast with believing in vain which is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

To boil this down you’re saying, “belief holds fast”.

• Although there is a sense in which I agree with your statement, these verses do not say saving belief holds fast.

15:2 in effect says, If you [Christians] hold fast/are holding fast the Gospel – then you [Christians] are being saved through the Gospel

• It’s Christians that hold fast
• It’s not belief that holds fast

15:2 then says, except, unless you eikē believed [the Gospel]

• There is some research that says eikē should be considered not as an adverb but as a direct object (unless you believed something vain). But let’s just stay with the adverb.

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)

• [BDAG] εἰκῇ (eikē)
  • εἰκῇ adv. (Xenophanes et al.; ins, pap; Pr 28:25; TestJob 39:11; Just; for the spelling εἰκῆ s. B-D-F §26; W-S. §5, 11 n. 22; Rob. 295f).
  
  1. pert. to there being no cause or reason, without cause (Xenophanes, fgm. B 2, 13 Diels; Artem. 2, 60; UPZ 106, 15; 107, 17; 108, 14 and 24 [all I BC]) Mt 5:22 v.l. (PWernberg-Møller, NTS 3, ’56/57, 71-73); εἰ. φυσιούμενος puffed up without cause Col 2:18.
  
  2. pert. to being without success or result, to no avail (TestJob 39:11; Lucian, Anach. 19) πάσχειν experience Gal 3:4. κοπιάζειν work 4:11.
  
  3. pert. to being without purpose, to no purpose (Lucian, Jupp. Tr. 36; EpArist 161; 168; Just., A II, 4, 2 and D. 97, 1) of the government τὴν μάχαιραν φορεῖν carry the sword to no purpose Ro 13:4.
  
  4. pert. to being without careful thought, without due consideration, in a haphazard manner (Heraclitus fgm. 47 Diels; Epict. 1, 6, 7; 1, 28, 28; Arrian, Anab. 6, 3, 2; Apollon. Dysc.: Gramm. Gr. II/2 p. 215, 1 U.; Sb 5675, 12 [II BC]; PLips 104, 29 [I BC]; POslo 159, 9 [III AD]; Pr 28:25; EpArist 51; 162; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 234) w. ἀτάκτως thoughtlessly (perh. at random) and in disorder 1 Cl 40:2. πιστεῦσαι 1 Cor 15:2 (here mng. 3 is also prob.).—DELG s.v. εἰκῇ. New Docs 2, 81. M-M. TW.

What Paul is in effect saying is:

• If you Christians are holding fast the accurate Gospel
  • Then you Christians are being saved
• If you Christians believed the Gospel without careful thought,
  • Then you Christians may not be being saved

Paul is not focusing on the entrance into Christ (were saved). Paul is focusing on Christian growth in Christ (being saved).

• Paul will proceed to explain the vital importance of the correct understanding of the resurrection which some of them were disagreeing with at this point.
• As Paul continues, he will command that they awake to righteousness and do not sin
  • Consider the concept of being saved vs. was saved.

Re: being saved:

• Paul in this letter flips the script of Saved – Sanctified – Glorified
  • NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified (perfect tense so have been and are currently sanctified - and this says nothing about the future) in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
  • NET 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved (present passive) it is the power of God.
  • NET 1 Corinthians 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you – unless you believed in vain
• So, in 1Cor the Script is Sanctified – Being Saved – Glorified (which is why I don’t use scripts people make up). BTW, this “being saved” can be applied to Phil2:12 where Paul commands Christians to accomplish their salvation.

Those who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe the gospel). Their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

Although those who were saying there is no resurrection can obviously be said not to believe in resurrection, there is no place I see where Paul is calling anybody he’s addressing, an unbeliever. He rather addresses them as believers (3:5; 15:11). And vainly believing does not seem to equal unbelief. It seems more like Paul is continuing to deal with schisms substantially created by Christian infancy (infants who have not thought through what and why they believe) as he was dealing with 1Cor3.

Paul’s argument was that maybe some didn’t think through the implications of what they had been taught. Some among them were now saying there is no resurrection (which is vital to the Gospel). So, Paul proceeds to explain how vital the resurrection is to the Gospel and to how a Christian lives (while being saved).

IMO what we’re seeing is that some could believe Jesus is the Christ and deny that there is a resurrection. There are many reasons young believers could deny or begin denying resurrection, let alone other truths. So, Paul had to clear up this schism along with other schisms and provide the reasoning that resurrection is vital to the Christians Faith.

 

[studier]

That was never the question. What is being accomplished is what is under consideration.

Salvation just as the verse says.

Haven't we been here before?

 

[studier]

Salvation is happening if God is at work. If salvation was accomplished by obedience, there is no need of Christ.

Salvation is happening when the Christian is obeying with God providing the capabilities for the Christian to both will and work as pleases God. This is what Phil2:12-13 says.

If there were no Christ, then the Christian would not be a Christian and there would be no command to the Christian to accomplish Salvation and no Phil2:12-13.

I am interested though, how are you keeping the commandment to be holy as God is holy? What are you doing to fulfill this commandment?

In Christ in Spirit while being saved, by God's capabilities working in me, in part I'm obeying commands like Phil2:12.