Is faith a work?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Since Jesus affirmed that the 11 were already saved, He COULDN'T have meant anything about how to get saved. The word "abiding" is about fellowship. iow, believers can bear fruit ONLY IF they are in fellowship with the Lord.

Fellowship = harmony. Believers out of fellowship are out of harmony with the Lord and cannot bear fruit. That is what Jesus was saying.

Fellowship is about the STATE of the relationship, just as harmony (or lack) is the state of a marriage.

Rather than make these kind of totally irrelevant comments, how about actually addressing what I post? Do you even understand what it means to be either IN or OUT OF fellowship with the Lord?

Are you purposely acting dumb here? Or do you really have no understanding?

It is YOUR SILLINESS I was making fun of.

Seeing that I was talking about fellowship with the Lord in order to bear fruit, it seems YOU are the dumb one if you think that discussion is silly.

And you are pretending not to see it. And if you aren't pretending then you have no business EVER trying to tell anyone anything.

I will continue to point out what the bible SAYS when what YOU say doesn't match what the Bible says.

And that ain't silly. It's fact.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

Nope. Its not..

Yes it is. Its either yours or Gods, if Gods its all of Grace, if its yours, its your works which is condemned.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

Nope

Because God loved the WORLD that he gave his only son to die for them

the world is everyone

Yes God Loved the world, you can tell a person that, but you cant tell a person that God loved them individually. Wonder if they are a worker of iniquity that God hates Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Wonder if they one of the foolish ? Then you have lied to them

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

God can’t make them alive DEAD in sin

to do so he would have to set aside his perfect justice and overrule his own judgment

One can not be made alive until they are justified. ONLY then is the sin debt removed and the penalty removed, and the life is granted.

Like I said, Salvation is impossible to a dead sinner, but If God makes them alive, they experience conversion.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

Yes, it does. Then it says "having believed, THEY were sealed IN HIM by the Holy Spirit".

Okay then, they had spiritual ears and hearing from being born of God.

 

[Magenta]

As it goes, the Bible does not in fact succinctly say faith is a gift anywhere.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the
righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Surely it goes without saying that this is given by God?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, it does. Then it says "having believed, THEY were sealed IN HIM by the Holy Spirit".

Okay then, they had spiritual ears and hearing from being born of God.

What you have here is simply an assumption, or worse, a presumption.

You think people believe after being born again. But you can't prove it from Scripture. I am a Berean. You have to show me Scripture that SAYS what you SAY. Which you can't, and you know it.

Yet, I can show you verse that clearly prove that believing precedes salvation and regeneration.

Eph 2:5 equates "being made alive" (regeneration) with "being saved".

Then, in v.8 we read that "we are saved by grace (no works) THROUGH FAITH. Our faith precedes salvation, and regeneration.

Again, there are NO verses that tell us that regeneration precedes faith or believing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Runningman said:
As it goes, the Bible does not in fact succinctly say faith is a gift anywhere.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the
righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Surely it goes without saying that this is given by God?

We always need to be clear. When "faith" is used as a noun, of course it is from God, since our "faith" as a noun refers to the body of what we believe, which is the Bible itself. That's our faith, what we believe.

However, when "faith" is used as a verb, which is the usual way it is used, it is NOT "of God" as being claimed since Rom 10:10 tels us that man believes from his heart. This verse clearly tells us where our believing comes from; ourselves.

When we trust in the gospel promise, that is OUR trust, not God's. And that is the issue in salvation. What is your response to the promise of God? Do you TRUST Jesus to save you?

Salvation is a simpe TRUST issue: do you trust the promise God makes about His Son?

God causes no one to believe. God leaves that up to each person. That is His plan.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, it does. Then it says "having believed, THEY were sealed IN HIM by the Holy Spirit".

What you have here is simply an assumption, or worse, a presumption.

You think people believe after being born again. But you can't prove it from Scripture. I am a Berean. You have to show me Scripture that SAYS what you SAY. Which you can't, and you know it.

Yet, I can show you verse that clearly prove that believing precedes salvation and regeneration.

Eph 2:5 equates "being made alive" (regeneration) with "being saved".

Then, in v.8 we read that "we are saved by grace (no works) THROUGH FAITH. Our faith precedes salvation, and regeneration.

Again, there are NO verses that tell us that regeneration precedes faith or believing.

See in order to hear, one has to be born spiritually to hear Spiritually Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Hearing comes from being born of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God

Now according To Jesus who is it that Hears the words of God ?

 

[Runningman]

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the
righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Surely it goes without saying that this is given by God?

I’m not sure because Paul said that people can come to believe through servants.(People)

1 Corinthians 3:5
5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? They are servants through whom you believed, as the Lord has assigned to each his role.

It’s like the gospel is preached through servants. One plants, another waters, but God gives the increase. So I would be more inclined to think they were proselytized by Peter and got their faith from him, but God made the plant grow so to speak.

For example, he’s talking about “a faith as precious as ours” like not all faiths are equal. The “seed of the word” falls on different soils. Just a way of saying that people receive the word of God in different ways. Some people’s faith withers up and dies and others produce a crop of 100 fold.

Great faith such as what Peter had is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit don’t come before receiving the Holy Spirit and faith being a prerequisite for the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9 says only some receive faith as a spiritual gift of the Holy Spirit. What I understand about that is this is referring to a kind of exceptional faith that isn’t given to everyone.

Those in 2 Peter 1:1 received a precious faith equal to Peter’s at some time after getting their faith from someone who had preached to them. It was a spiritual gift. That’s how it makes sense to me.

Half of 2 Peter 1 is about receiving things. Might fit somewhere into that context but I don’t have time to unpack it right now.

 

[FreeGrace2]

See in order to hear, one has to be born spiritually to hear Spiritually Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Your statement cannot be found in that verse. Or any other verse, either. In fact, v.13 doesn't even mention being born again. It speaks of being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Hearing comes from being born of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God

Jesus is plainly telling Jews that it is believers who hear God. Jesus never taught that being born again precedes salvation.

Now according To Jesus who is it that Hears the words of God ?

Believers.

However, you may not be aware of what Rom 10 teaches.

13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”

v.14 asks how one can call on the Lord if they haven't believed in Him. They can't, so v.13 isn't about saving faith but rather lifestyle faith where the Lord saves His own from various dangers, etc.

The, v.14-16 shows the sequential order of things. In order to be able to call on the Lord, one HAS TO believe in Him. But before they can believe, they have to hear the message. Then, how can they hear unless there is a preacher. And how can anyone preach unless one is sent.

 

[Grandpa]

FreeGrace2 said:
You have no verse to back you up. The gift in Eph 2:8 is salvation, just as eternal life is a gift in Rom 6:23. Salvation and eternal life are the same thing.

And you misunderstand John 6:29 as well. The Bible defines work as creating an obligation, like a paycheck, for instance. And here you are thinking salvation is "the parent for your work of belief". Pure nonsense. You should know better than that.

Since salvastion is a gift, there CANNOT be any PAYMENT. How can you not realize this?

Correct. You can also say that salvation is by believing in Christ.


That is a fallacy. Both Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5 prove it is not a work.


Faith is not a gift. Man believes from his heart. That is not a gift. Work demands payment. Gifts DON'T. That's the difference. Salvation is the gift, as is eternal life. Neither demand payment from God. Our believing is what God requires to save you.

If you believe in Christ, God saves you. If you don't believe in Christ, God won't save you. That is His plan, all the way.


Only in your own confused reformed mind. The Greek grammar of Eph 2:8 proves that faith is NOT a gift. The genders don't match, not that facts seem to have any sway with you.


Right. And I do what the Bereans did with Paul's SAYINGS. They checked them out by searching the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was TRUE.

And what you say isn't true. It is that simple. Eph 2:8 says salvation is the gift, just as Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift.

2 simple verses, if only you truly understood them, COMPLETELY refute and annihilate your silly arguments.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


If you understood this then you would understand Ephesians 2:8. That NOT OF YOURSELVES.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You have no verse to back you up. The gift in Eph 2:8 is salvation, just as eternal life is a gift in Rom 6:23. Salvation and eternal life are the same thing.

And you misunderstand John 6:29 as well. The Bible defines work as creating an obligation, like a paycheck, for instance. And here you are thinking salvation is "the parent for your work of belief". Pure nonsense. You should know better than that.

Since salvastion is a gift, there CANNOT be any PAYMENT. How can you not realize this?

Correct. You can also say that salvation is by believing in Christ.


That is a fallacy. Both Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5 prove it is not a work.

2 simple verses, if only you truly understood them, COMPLETELY refute and annihilate your silly arguments.

The sad thing is that I've given you TWO simple passages that ONLY IF you really did understand them, COMPLETELY refute and destroy your silly arguments. Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

If you understood this then you would understand Ephesians 2:8. That NOT OF YOURSELVES.

If you had even a tiny bit of Greek grammar understanding, you would be embarrassed at your ridiculous claims about what the gift is.

But you have demonstrated that you are not a student of the Word and are, in fact, not teachable.

You have been given facts and you just poo-poo them.

 

[Grandpa]

FreeGrace2 said:
You have no verse to back you up. The gift in Eph 2:8 is salvation, just as eternal life is a gift in Rom 6:23. Salvation and eternal life are the same thing.

And you misunderstand John 6:29 as well. The Bible defines work as creating an obligation, like a paycheck, for instance. And here you are thinking salvation is "the parent for your work of belief". Pure nonsense. You should know better than that.

Since salvastion is a gift, there CANNOT be any PAYMENT. How can you not realize this?

Correct. You can also say that salvation is by believing in Christ.


That is a fallacy. Both Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5 prove it is not a work.

The sad thing is that I've given you TWO simple passages that ONLY IF you really did understand them, COMPLETELY refute and destroy your silly arguments. Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5.


If you had even a tiny bit of Greek grammar understanding, you would be embarrassed at your ridiculous claims about what the gift is.

But you have demonstrated that you are not a student of the Word and are, in fact, not teachable.

You have been given facts and you just poo-poo them.

Ephesians 2:8-9 PROVE faith is a gift of God!!

You just DON'T WANT to understand. You purposely turn your brain off. There is no way you can put sentences together but then be so stupid to not see what they say.

 

[WillB]

You are wrong in the claim that v.8 is about word order. It is not. It's about connecting the genders of words to determine what goes with what. In v.8, both salvation and gift are feminine genders, while faith is masculine. So the gift is salvation, not faith.

However, the point of v.8 is that salvation is through faith. That means the faith is there first. You can't go 'THROUGH' something unless that something is there.


v.5 clearly equates regeneration with being saved. They go together, proven by the FACT that there are NO instances in the Bible of a saved person who wasn't born again, or a born again person who wasn't saved.


I don't know what that means.


Nope. Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that both salvation and regeneration are THROUGH faith. The faith comes first.

Also demonstrated in 1 Cor 1:21 - God is pleased to save those who believe.


But you see cause and effect where there isn't any.


I can't imagine how or why you say this. When a person believes the gospel promise is WHEN they are saved and born again. Maybe you didn't read my post careful enough.

FreeGrace2: God doesn't give spiritual birth to unbelievers. Calvinists don't believe that. And they don't have any verse that supports their claim.


They have infected evangelicals with false doctrines.


I don't care what Calvin wrote. I'm going on what pastors who are reformed claim.

Why would I think or claim he said or wrote that anyway? WHEN a person believes the gospel promise, they are believers, and God regenerates them.

Faith before salvation/regeneration.

WillB said:
The point at issue which you raised is about faith and salvation in which you claim that faith precedes salvation.

FreeGrace2: The Bible teaches that faith precedes salvation.

Eph 2:5 is the verse that equates "being made alive" or regeneration, with being saved. They are synonymous.
Then, in v.8 Paul wrote that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. That word proves that faith precedes salvation.

WB: Your argument on this point in relation to verse 8 is the word order but if you were being consistent you would have to apply that very same principle and say that verse 5 ‘proves’ being saved comes before faith …and that of course would not make sense.

Click to expand...
FreeGrace2:
You are wrong in the claim that v.8 is about word order. It is not. It's about connecting the genders of words to determine what goes with what. In v.8, both salvation and gift are feminine genders, while faith is masculine. So the gift is salvation, not faith.

WB: You’ve misunderstood me again as I am not the one arguing about the order of words to support a view – it is you who is doing that ….as your very own words and the manner in which you have ordered them make that point clear.

FreeGrace2: However, the point of v.8 is that salvation is through faith. That means the faith is there first. You can't go 'THROUGH' something unless that something is there.

WB: The point I’m making – and which is made by others (and you have agreed that faith is a gift of God – unless you’ve changed your mind) – is that the moment a person has been gifted faith it automatically follows in that instant that he is saved.

You don’t agree. So do tell me – and others following this thread – WHEN salvation comes to the person gifted with faith? 1 day later? 7 days later? 1 year later? WHEN? And what facts and evidence can you produce to support your view?

As you seem determined to reject my exposition of Scripture you may just want to consider the following from the highly respected source: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/which-comes-first-in-the-ordo-salutis-faith-or-regeneration
v.5 clearly equates regeneration with being saved. They go together, proven by the FACT that there are NO instances in the Bible of a saved person who wasn't born again, or a born again person who wasn't saved.

So when we’re thinking about it, we realize that, logically, regeneration grounds our faith.
I don't know what that means.

But when we are regenerated, we come to believe.
Nope. Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that both salvation and regeneration are THROUGH faith. The faith comes first.

Also demonstrated in 1 Cor 1:21 - God is pleased to save those who believe.

So there is not a gap that we would be able to detect between being born again and coming to believe.
But you see cause and effect where there isn't any.

WB: When a Christian evangelizes to an unregenerate person there are two possible outcomes.

FreeGrace2: Of course.

WB: First, the unregenerate person can reject the message - and remain unregenerate i.e. spiritually dead.

Or Second, the unregenerate person can believe the content of the message and have faith in Jesus Christ in which case he is no longer spiritually dead ....he's been made alive i.e. born again - and is saved which is the consequence of the free gift of faith by God to that person.

FreeGrace2: Then what's the argument here? I'm with you all the way. It is WHEN a person believes the gospel promise that they are saved AND born again.

WB: That’s exactly the very point I’ve been arguing FOR and which you’ve been arguing AGAINST when you say “faith precedes salvation.”!!!!!
Click to expand...
I can't imagine how or why you say this. When a person believes the gospel promise is WHEN they are saved and born again. Maybe you didn't read my post careful enough.

FreeGrace2: God doesn't give spiritual birth to unbelievers. Calvinists don't believe that. And they don't have any verse that supports their claim.

WB: You’ve got a bee in your bonnet about Calvinists for some reason.
They have infected evangelicals with false doctrines.

Show me precisely where in the writings of Calvin he asserts God gives “spiritual birth to unbelievers.”
I don't care what Calvin wrote. I'm going on what pastors who are reformed claim.

Why would I think or claim he said or wrote that anyway? WHEN a person believes the gospel promise, they are believers, and God regenerates them.

Faith before salvation/regeneration.

WB: Your entire argument has inconsistencies and contradictions and it seems to me the reason behind this is your clear antipathy for your perceived view of what Calvin and ‘Calvinists’ believe. But when asked to quote specific examples you cannot do so and make the ‘defense’ of placing your faith in “what pastors who are reformed claim.”
As for me, I choose to not put my faith in any humans knowing too well the default to err and so I put my faith in God inspired Scripture.
So, I think we’ll call it a day as you are, it seems, wedded to your dogmatic view.

 

[WillB]

Okay... fine. Then in what way is the Gospel the power unto salvation? Regeneratively or in Conversion?

WB: Would you agree that an 'unregenerate' man is spiritually dead?

If you agree, you will perhaps also agree that when an unregenerate man is gifted with faith that in that instant he is changed from 'dead' to 'alive' i.e. he is born again i.e. regenerated.

And by the way I was not 'accusing' you and was merely making a pertinent observation about your response.

 

[Runningman]

Ephesians 2:8-9 PROVE faith is a gift of God!!

You just DON'T WANT to understand. You purposely turn your brain off. There is no way you can put sentences together but then be so stupid to not see what they say.

It makes more sense that God requires our faith, at least initially, or it would undermine the command for there being a Great Commission, going into all the world, preaching the gospel, and missionary work. God can increase our faith afterwards.

If God provides initial faith then why we are repeatedly told to have faith and told the consequences of not having faith throughout the Bible. God is patient, not wanting anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance.

If what you're saying is true, then in my own words this is how I would start interpreting the Bible:

"God requires faith, but He only gives faith as a gift to certain people. Meanwhile, He is desiring that everyone repents, but for those who weren't given faith their repentance is futile, ineffective, and they're going to perish anyway even though God doesn't want them to perish; however, He selects who perishes and who is saved by the gift of faith."

Does what I said above make absolutely any sense whatsoever to any sane or rational person?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes it is. Its either yours or Gods, if Gods its all of Grace, if its yours, its your works which is condemned.

lol

God will not make my decision for me.

But it is all of his work..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes God Loved the world, you can tell a person that, but you cant tell a person that God loved them individually. Wonder if they are a worker of iniquity that God hates Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Wonder if they one of the foolish ? Then you have lied to them

You need to look inside my friend. You were Gods enemy before you came to him. You were a worker of iniquity. If God did not die for them. You (and me for that matter) have no hope

Jesus said He came to die for the world. That's everyone..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Like I said, Salvation is impossible to a dead sinner, but If God makes them alive, they experience conversion.

Well then no one can be saved.

Because God will not make a person alive in sin. Its impossible. based on his perfect character