Is faith a work?
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FreeGrace2 said:
Believing the gospel promises is a trust issue, not a spiritual issue, as it seems you opine.
That is not what the verse says. The opposite, in fact.
"in whom you trusted" comes AFTER hearing the "word of truth". It's very clear. And after believing, the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit.
You haven't proven that the gospel promise is a spiritual issue at all.
The issue about the gospel is whether one BELIEVES the promise. That proves that the gospel promise is a trust issue.
I rest my case.
Believing the gospel promises is a trust issue, not a spiritual issue, as it seems you opine.
That is not what the verse says. The opposite, in fact.
"in whom you trusted" comes AFTER hearing the "word of truth". It's very clear. And after believing, the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit.
You haven't proven that the gospel promise is a spiritual issue at all.
The issue about the gospel is whether one BELIEVES the promise. That proves that the gospel promise is a trust issue.
I rest my case.
Everything we do in the flesh is some kind of a "work" simply because of the physical nature of flesh, whether it be belief with the mind, confession with the mouth, faith from within, with the heart, as well as baptism, also required for salvation, which is a type of work, not a negative work of the flesh as noted in Galatians 5, or a work of the law, but a commandment to be obeyed, so the scripture as stated makes perfect sense.
FreeGrace2 said:
Every verse that evangelizes someone is proof.
Who is the gospel presented to anyway? Unregenerates. Why do it if they can't respond? That would make no sense. And Calvinists just do not understand that.
WillB said:
WB: You seem to be missing the point.
The point at issue which you raised is about faith and salvation in which you claim that faith precedes salvation.
FreeGrqace2: The Bible teaches that faith precedes salvation.
Eph 2:5 is the verse that equates "being made alive" or regeneration, with being saved. They are synonymous.
Then, in v.8 Paul wrote that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. That word proves that faith precedes salvation.
WB: Your argument on this point in relation to verse 8 is the word order but if you were being consistent you would have to apply that very same principle and say that verse 5 ‘proves’ being saved comes before faith …and that of course would not make sense.
As you seem determined to reject my exposition of Scripture you may just want to consider the following from the highly respected source: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/which-comes-first-in-the-ordo-salutis-faith-or-regeneration
“I think first of all of what Jesus said in John chapter 3, when he said to Nicodemus that unless you’re born from above—which is regeneration—you’ll neither be able to see or enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-5). And we enter the kingdom of God through faith.
So in that conversation, I think it’s very clear that in order to come to faith, first of all, God has to give us a new heart. And that is really what John had said in the prologue to the gospel as well, that those who came to believe in Him were born not of the will of the flesh or the will of man, but born of God (John 1:13).
So when we’re thinking about it, we realize that, logically, regeneration grounds our faith. But when we are regenerated, we come to believe.
So there is not a gap that we would be able to detect between being born again and coming to believe. In fact, the way we would recognize that we had been born again was because that came to expression in our trust in Jesus Christ. So they are very intimately related.”
WB: When a Christian evangelizes to an unregenerate person there are two possible outcomes.
FreeGrace2: Of course.
WB: First, the unregenerate person can reject the message - and remain unregenerate i.e. spiritually dead.
Or Second, the unregenerate person can believe the content of the message and have faith in Jesus Christ in which case he is no longer spiritually dead ....he's been made alive i.e. born again - and is saved which is the consequence of the free gift of faith by God to that person.
FreeGrace2: Then what's the argument here? I'm with you all the way. It is WHEN a person believes the gospel promise that they are saved AND born again.
WB: That’s exactly the very point I’ve been arguing FOR and which you’ve been arguing AGAINST when you say “faith precedes salvation.”!!!!!
FreeGrace2: God doesn't give spiritual birth to unbelievers. Calvinists don't believe that. And they don't have any verse that supports their claim.
WB: You’ve got a bee in your bonnet about Calvinists for some reason. Show me precisely where in the writings of Calvin he asserts God gives “spiritual birth to unbelievers.”
Every verse that evangelizes someone is proof.
Who is the gospel presented to anyway? Unregenerates. Why do it if they can't respond? That would make no sense. And Calvinists just do not understand that.
WillB said:
WB: You seem to be missing the point.
The point at issue which you raised is about faith and salvation in which you claim that faith precedes salvation.
FreeGrqace2: The Bible teaches that faith precedes salvation.
Eph 2:5 is the verse that equates "being made alive" or regeneration, with being saved. They are synonymous.
Then, in v.8 Paul wrote that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. That word proves that faith precedes salvation.
WB: Your argument on this point in relation to verse 8 is the word order but if you were being consistent you would have to apply that very same principle and say that verse 5 ‘proves’ being saved comes before faith …and that of course would not make sense.
As you seem determined to reject my exposition of Scripture you may just want to consider the following from the highly respected source: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/which-comes-first-in-the-ordo-salutis-faith-or-regeneration
“I think first of all of what Jesus said in John chapter 3, when he said to Nicodemus that unless you’re born from above—which is regeneration—you’ll neither be able to see or enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-5). And we enter the kingdom of God through faith.
So in that conversation, I think it’s very clear that in order to come to faith, first of all, God has to give us a new heart. And that is really what John had said in the prologue to the gospel as well, that those who came to believe in Him were born not of the will of the flesh or the will of man, but born of God (John 1:13).
So when we’re thinking about it, we realize that, logically, regeneration grounds our faith. But when we are regenerated, we come to believe.
So there is not a gap that we would be able to detect between being born again and coming to believe. In fact, the way we would recognize that we had been born again was because that came to expression in our trust in Jesus Christ. So they are very intimately related.”
WB: When a Christian evangelizes to an unregenerate person there are two possible outcomes.
FreeGrace2: Of course.
WB: First, the unregenerate person can reject the message - and remain unregenerate i.e. spiritually dead.
Or Second, the unregenerate person can believe the content of the message and have faith in Jesus Christ in which case he is no longer spiritually dead ....he's been made alive i.e. born again - and is saved which is the consequence of the free gift of faith by God to that person.
FreeGrace2: Then what's the argument here? I'm with you all the way. It is WHEN a person believes the gospel promise that they are saved AND born again.
WB: That’s exactly the very point I’ve been arguing FOR and which you’ve been arguing AGAINST when you say “faith precedes salvation.”!!!!!
FreeGrace2: God doesn't give spiritual birth to unbelievers. Calvinists don't believe that. And they don't have any verse that supports their claim.
WB: You’ve got a bee in your bonnet about Calvinists for some reason. Show me precisely where in the writings of Calvin he asserts God gives “spiritual birth to unbelievers.”
You are wrong in the claim that v.8 is about word order. It is not. It's about connecting the genders of words to determine what goes with what. In v.8, both salvation and gift are feminine genders, while faith is masculine. So the gift is salvation, not faith.
However, the point of v.8 is that salvation is through faith. That means the faith is there first. You can't go 'THROUGH' something unless that something is there.
v.5 clearly equates regeneration with being saved. They go together, proven by the FACT that there are NO instances in the Bible of a saved person who wasn't born again, or a born again person who wasn't saved.
I don't know what that means.
Nope. Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that both salvation and regeneration are THROUGH faith. The faith comes first.
Also demonstrated in 1 Cor 1:21 - God is pleased to save those who believe.
But you see cause and effect where there isn't any.
I can't imagine how or why you say this. When a person believes the gospel promise is WHEN they are saved and born again. Maybe you didn't read my post careful enough.
FreeGrace2: God doesn't give spiritual birth to unbelievers. Calvinists don't believe that. And they don't have any verse that supports their claim.
They have infected evangelicals with false doctrines.
I don't care what Calvin wrote. I'm going on what pastors who are reformed claim.
Why would I think or claim he said or wrote that anyway? WHEN a person believes the gospel promise, they are believers, and God regenerates them.
Faith before salvation/regeneration.
However, the point of v.8 is that salvation is through faith. That means the faith is there first. You can't go 'THROUGH' something unless that something is there.
v.5 clearly equates regeneration with being saved. They go together, proven by the FACT that there are NO instances in the Bible of a saved person who wasn't born again, or a born again person who wasn't saved.
I don't know what that means.
Nope. Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that both salvation and regeneration are THROUGH faith. The faith comes first.
Also demonstrated in 1 Cor 1:21 - God is pleased to save those who believe.
But you see cause and effect where there isn't any.
I can't imagine how or why you say this. When a person believes the gospel promise is WHEN they are saved and born again. Maybe you didn't read my post careful enough.
FreeGrace2: God doesn't give spiritual birth to unbelievers. Calvinists don't believe that. And they don't have any verse that supports their claim.
They have infected evangelicals with false doctrines.
I don't care what Calvin wrote. I'm going on what pastors who are reformed claim.
Why would I think or claim he said or wrote that anyway? WHEN a person believes the gospel promise, they are believers, and God regenerates them.
Faith before salvation/regeneration.
Hebrews 10:38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in the him. Those who lack faith cant please God. Abraham is a example of a faith and obedience. God called abraham out of ur to Palestine. The majority in ur were self centered. So we have a pivotal point here. James 1:6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 1:7. For let not man think he shall receive any thing of the Lord. AKATASTATOS in Greek means = unstable. A person who is double minded cant please God. You either have faith or you dont. James 2:14. What does it profit , my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not Works, is dead being alone. NEKROS in Greek means = Dead. We have a parallel here. Both faith and obedience and works go together. If you have dead works, no rewards, get the picture. Matthew 5:16. LET your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your father which is in heaven. Works can be volunteered in soup kitchen, donations to charity if you can afford it. Or planting seeds for God or saying kind words to fellow Christians going through rough times. Those works make up your fine linen or your naked as Jay bird in paradise. Repentance is also needed, or you will pay for those sins on day of the Lord.
We are saved by the righteousness of Christ.
100% Christs works that make us saved.
We access salvation by faith alone. Because we can never attain, by our works, the righteousness needed to be saved.
Can i believe in Jesus (have faith in Jesus) and have no works and be saved?
Faith without work is dead.
Rev 14:12 KJV Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
...Faith of Jesus... the faith of Jesus was one that had works.
Mat 7: 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
It is more then just believing in Jesus. We need to know Him and Love Him.
Good works are a natural result of whats in the heart.
Do i love Jesus more then the sins in my heart? My fruits will reveal it.
100% Christs works that make us saved.
We access salvation by faith alone. Because we can never attain, by our works, the righteousness needed to be saved.
Can i believe in Jesus (have faith in Jesus) and have no works and be saved?
Faith without work is dead.
Rev 14:12 KJV Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
...Faith of Jesus... the faith of Jesus was one that had works.
Mat 7: 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
It is more then just believing in Jesus. We need to know Him and Love Him.
Good works are a natural result of whats in the heart.
Do i love Jesus more then the sins in my heart? My fruits will reveal it.
No, the Bible commands believers to do good works. Otherwise, the commands are needless if they are guaranteed.
The Bible doesn't teach this.
What you are missing is the whole issue of spiritual growth.
For good works to be produced (bearing fruit), several things MUST be understood and implemented.
The believer MUST BE in fellowship with the Lord. This means to confess all sins for cleansing and restoring fellowship. 1 John 1:9
The believer MUST be filled with the Holy Spirit. Eph 5:18 is a command to obey. It isn't automatic. Paul wrote commands to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. That shows that believers are guilty of doing those things.
No believer will bear fruit when either grieving or quenching the Spirit.
The Bible doesn't teach this.
What you are missing is the whole issue of spiritual growth.
For good works to be produced (bearing fruit), several things MUST be understood and implemented.
The believer MUST BE in fellowship with the Lord. This means to confess all sins for cleansing and restoring fellowship. 1 John 1:9
The believer MUST be filled with the Holy Spirit. Eph 5:18 is a command to obey. It isn't automatic. Paul wrote commands to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. That shows that believers are guilty of doing those things.
No believer will bear fruit when either grieving or quenching the Spirit.
Everlastinggrace
Sure He can, and He is the only one that can since He is only God
to do so he would have to set aside his perfect justice and overrule his own judgment
Not true, because Christ has intervened on their behalf and took care of Gods Law and Justice for them, when He died for them and satisfied Gods Law and Justice, so that's the very reason why God does quicken them from spiritual death, Justice has been satisfied through Christ.
Those Christ died for are Justified by His death/blood Rom 5:8-9
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet[dead] sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood[death], we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Now since Christs death Justified them, God quickens them from Spiritual death, cause their sins have been paid for, put away by Christs death for them.
Correct which was accomplished by the death of Christ for them.
Sure He can, and He is the only one that can since He is only God
to do so he would have to set aside his perfect justice and overrule his own judgment
Not true, because Christ has intervened on their behalf and took care of Gods Law and Justice for them, when He died for them and satisfied Gods Law and Justice, so that's the very reason why God does quicken them from spiritual death, Justice has been satisfied through Christ.
Those Christ died for are Justified by His death/blood Rom 5:8-9
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet[dead] sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood[death], we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Now since Christs death Justified them, God quickens them from Spiritual death, cause their sins have been paid for, put away by Christs death for them.
Correct which was accomplished by the death of Christ for them.
There are two things we need.
Justification and sanctification.
Glorification will come to the saved....
Justification is by faith.
Being made righteous by the blood of Christ. Being Clothed in Christ's righteousness.
We are seen without fault.
By confessing your sin and repenting, your sins can be forgiven..
Sanctification is by faith also.
Being made righteous by Christ transforming us.
The process of being made holy. By the truth found in Gods word we are sanctified.
John 17:17.
We are saved by faith alone.
But works can not be seperated from faith.
Faith and works are connected.
Faith without works are dead.
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Justification and sanctification.
Glorification will come to the saved....
Justification is by faith.
Being made righteous by the blood of Christ. Being Clothed in Christ's righteousness.
We are seen without fault.
By confessing your sin and repenting, your sins can be forgiven..
Sanctification is by faith also.
Being made righteous by Christ transforming us.
The process of being made holy. By the truth found in Gods word we are sanctified.
John 17:17.
We are saved by faith alone.
But works can not be seperated from faith.
Faith and works are connected.
Faith without works are dead.
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
tms
Christ by Gods doing provides those needs for His chosen 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness or Justification, and sanctification, and redemption:
Yes Faith equals Christ, so Justification is by Christ, and Faith believes that
That is wrong. Forgiveness comes with Justification, and is provided by the blood of Christ. Legally forgiveness and Justification are the same.
Works Justifies a persons faith, to show that the person may be Justified by Christs blood,
And a word of caution here, many works can be imitated by the unjust, like good moral behaviour and etc
If we say faith/believing is an act of ours that gets us Justified before God, we cant exclude boasting then.
Christ by Gods doing provides those needs for His chosen 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness or Justification, and sanctification, and redemption:
Yes Faith equals Christ, so Justification is by Christ, and Faith believes that
That is wrong. Forgiveness comes with Justification, and is provided by the blood of Christ. Legally forgiveness and Justification are the same.
Works Justifies a persons faith, to show that the person may be Justified by Christs blood,
And a word of caution here, many works can be imitated by the unjust, like good moral behaviour and etc
If we say faith/believing is an act of ours that gets us Justified before God, we cant exclude boasting then.