If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

[Kroogz]

It is also quite possible under my view that some saint in the future ages may not perfectly fulfil their duties according to the will of Christ, dig their proud toes in and not humbly acknowledge their failure but deny the truth for a day, weeks, possibly years, and be barred from access to the tree of life and the holy city, (as per Rev 22) until they become very sick in their exile.

It is also possible that the recalcitrant "saint" ultimately refuses to repent until they die, and are then cast out of the new heavens and earth into the lake of fire

Rev 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His [a]people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

 

[Genez]

How is relying on the sacrifice of Christ and pledging allegiance to Him in the ages to come suddenly "salvation by works" and s"uper legalism", when in this present age they are salvation in grace through faith. There is no expiry date on the sacrifice of the cross for reconciling sinners to God. Are you trying to limit the unlimited efficacy of the sacrifice of Christ?

Let me get this straight with you....

Have you been saying that believers in the future will need to eat from the Tree of Life to have everlasting life?

 

[studier]

the contingency of eating from the tree of life in order to remain immortal

Silly point, so pardon me, but I hope there's no need for latrines anymore. There are some things in life I just can't see as eternal.

 

[Mem]

Silly point, so pardon me, but I hope there's no need for latrines anymore. There are some things in life I just can't see as eternal.

I've always posited that our digestives systems will be so efficient as resulting only in apple blossom farts.

 

[studier]

I've always posited that our digestives systems will be so efficient as resulting only in apple blossom farts.

That made me laugh!

I think foods will be so clean and our bodies so efficient that there will be no cleansing of foods and no waste. So, apple blossom scent will be everywhere all the time apart from human digestion and scents.

 

[studier]

Sorry @PaulThomson. Carry on.

 

[PaulThomson]

Let me get this straight with you....

Have you been saying that believers in the future will need to eat from the Tree of Life to have everlasting life?

No. Aeonous life is enjoying all that Jesus has given us so that we might know God and Jesus Christ more and more intimately. The saints have aeonous life now, and will have aeonous life in the age to come, and will have it in the coming future ages.

I am saying that I think that in the coming ages the saints will need to eat intermittently from the tree of life to stay in good physical health.

 

[PaulThomson]

Rev 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His [a]people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

Rev 21:4
And shall wipe away (καὶ ἐξαλείψει) the God (ὁ Θεὸς) all tears (πᾶν δάκρυον) away from the eyes of them (ἀπὸ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν) and (καὶ) the death (ὁ θάνατος) not shall be (οὐκ ἔσται ) more (ἔτι), neither sorrow (οὔτε πένθος), neither crying, (οὔτε κραυγὴ) neither pain (οὔτε πόνος) not shall be (οὐκ ἔσται) more (ἔτι) because ( ὅτι) the former things (τὰ πρῶτα) passed away (ἀπῆλθον).

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and death shall be no more [for the resurrected saints], neither shall there be more sorrow, crying, or pain [for the resurrected saints], because the former things [that caused death, sorrow, crying and pain] passed away [for the resurrected saints].

You seem to be interpreting this as an assertion that there will never be any death, sorrow, crying, or pain in perpetuity for the resurrected saints. But that is not how we use language of this kind. I may say,
"Once HAMAS is obliterated, there will be no more missiles and murderous incursions into Israel - no more crying over innocent civilians slaughtered; no more pain of families separated by hostage takers - for the former works of HAMAS are over."
I am not making a blanket decree about histroical reality into the future in perpetuity. I am contrasting the state of affairs before the demise of HAMAS with the state of affairs in the period immediately after the demise of HAMAS.

John is likewise describing the state of affairs in the age/millennium immediately after the defeat of death with the stae of affairs before Christ's return. There is no reason why the language must be describing a permanent unchanging state of affairs in perpetuity. That is not how we use such language in common discourse.

 

[Kroogz]

Rev 21:4
And shall wipe away (καὶ ἐξαλείψει) the God (ὁ Θεὸς) all tears (πᾶν δάκρυον) away from the eyes of them (ἀπὸ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν) and (καὶ) the death (ὁ θάνατος) not shall be (οὐκ ἔσται ) more (ἔτι), neither sorrow (οὔτε πένθος), neither crying, (οὔτε κραυγὴ) neither pain (οὔτε πόνος) not shall be (οὐκ ἔσται) more (ἔτι) because ( ὅτι) the former things (τὰ πρῶτα) passed away (ἀπῆλθον).

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and death shall be no more [for the resurrected saints], neither shall there be more sorrow, crying, or pain [for the resurrected saints], because the former things [that caused death, sorrow, crying and pain] passed away [for the resurrected saints].

You seem to be interpreting this as an assertion that there will never be any death, sorrow, crying, or pain in perpetuity for the resurrected saints.

No. Not only will there be no more death,sorrow,crying and pain for resurrected believers, there will be no more death for ALL OF HIS CREATION. ALL the former things have passed away.......Death will die.

 

[PaulThomson]

No. Not only will there be no more death,sorrow,crying and pain for resurrected believers, there will be no more death for ALL OF HIS CREATION. ALL the former things have passed away.......Death will die.

The saints are former things. So they pass away?

 

[Kroogz]

The saints are former things. So they pass away?

Jesus is a former thing. Will He pass away?

2 Cor 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

 

[PaulThomson]

Jesus is a former thing. Will He pass away?

2 Cor 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Okay. So we can agree then that "the former things are passed way" does not include all former things. So, what do you disagree with in my post #208 where I suggest that we do not usually use the language of Rev. 21:4 to make statements about the future in perpetuity?

 

[Kroogz]

So, what do you disagree with in my post #208 where I suggest that we do not usually use the language of Rev. 21:4 to make statements about the future in perpetuity?

So, what do you disagree with in my post #208 where I suggest that we I do not usually use the language of Rev. 21:4 to make statements about the future in perpetuity?

 

[Genez]

No. Aeonous life is enjoying all that Jesus has given us so that we might know God and Jesus Christ more and more intimately. The saints have aeonous life now, and will have aeonous life in the age to come, and will have it in the coming future ages.

I am saying that I think that in the coming ages the saints will need to eat intermittently from the tree of life to stay in good physical health.

1 Corinthians 15:53-55​

​

For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. ​

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, ​

then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”​

​

“Where, O death, is your victory?​

Where, O death, is your sting?”​

They did not put on immortality to begin with?


.

 

[Genez]

No. Aeonous life is enjoying all that Jesus has given us so that we might know God and Jesus Christ more and more intimately. The saints have aeonous life now, and will have aeonous life in the age to come, and will have it in the coming future ages.

In plain English, please? Aeonous life.

 

[Kroogz]

1 Corinthians 15:53-55​

​

For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. ​

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, ​

then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”​

​

“Where, O death, is your victory?​

Where, O death, is your sting?”​

They did not put on immortality to begin with?


.

Isaiah 25:8
8 He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.

1 Corinthians 15:26
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Revelation 20:14
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

 

[Genez]

Isaiah 25:8
8 He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.

1 Corinthians 15:26
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Revelation 20:14
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Well... there goes our "Tree of Life" fruit, sales!

Truth is bad for business these days,

 

[Kroogz]

Well... there goes our "Tree of Life" fruit, sales!

Truth is bad for business these days,

You said it. Super duper legalism.

Do we ever get a break? Can we ever truly rest? Is the burden ever going to lighten up? We can't even catch a break in the eternal state?


ALL of those things have already happened for every believer. Only those who have grown in His Grace and knowledge get to experience it in the here and now.

You have said it over and over. Humble ourselves, Seek and find our right pastor teacher.( my gift is NOT pastor/teacher) I need to find my right teacher.

We are meant to live in the here and now as conquerors, ambassadors in and for Christ......As His children in and through Him.

Not some weakling with doubt and a subjective list of do's and don'ts.

 

[Genez]

You said it. Super duper legalism.

Do we ever get a break? Can we ever truly rest? Is the burden ever going to lighten up? We can't even catch a break in the eternal state?


ALL of those things have already happened for every believer. Only those who have grown in His Grace and knowledge get to experience it in the here and now.

You have said it over and over. Humble ourselves, Seek and find our right pastor teacher.( my gift is NOT pastor/teacher) I need to find my right teacher.

We are meant to live in the here and now as conquerors, ambassadors in and for Christ......As His children in and through Him.

Not some weakling with doubt and a subjective list of do's and don'ts.

They pick and they choose...
What they like, as if it were booze...

Getting drunk on subjectivity.
So... they will appear.
Never to lose!​

 

[sawdust]

PaulThomson said:
I think the fact that in Revelation overcomers are promised to start eating again from the tree of life is evidence that the tree of life is associated both in Eden and in paradise with the maintenance of endless life. The fact that the tree of life is provided by God in the new heaven and the new earth 1000 years after the resurrection, which is when many assume the saints become perpetually immortal, is evidence that access to and eating from the tree of life was necessary for Adam's continuing life even before he sinned.

Why would the promise of eating from the tree of life have any pull power to people who are already permanently immortal?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
In



From your response, I see I did not phrase my question well. What I meant to ask is,

"Why would the promise of eating from the tree of life have any pull power on people who are already promised a permanent immortality that is not contingent upon eating from that tree of life?"

Granted that the overcomers are those who return to their first love, the question still stands unanswered.
"Why would the promise of eating from the tree of life to those who return to their first love, have any pull power on people who are already promised a permanent immortality that is not contingent upon eating from that tree of life, but only requires that they they have put their faith in Christ?"

You say, "I think it evidence, not of necessity for life, but of rewarded privilege for those who do the will of God."

You are affirming that it is a reward, but you have not given a reason for it being attractive as a reward. Is its pull power merely curiosity. The saints wonder what the tree of life tastes like, and if they return to their first love, their curiosity will be assuaged?

Your theory does not explain why the leaves are for the healing of the nations in the new heaven and the new earth, (Rev. 22) which is populated only with people who love and submit to Jesus Christ as Lord (Eph. 1:9-10) -

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

My theory is that we were not created to be non-contingently immortal. We are designed to gradually experience physical wear and tear that needs to be healed/repaired before it becomes debilitating. Those who are submitting to Christ are given free access to an elixir that repairs any wear and tear, via the tree of life. Those who are reject Christ as Lord are prohibited from having access to this healing tree and therefore their bodies degenerate toward debilitation leading to eventual death. I am proposing that free access to this tree allows the resurrected saints to live in a constant state of optimal health, if they choose, so that they never die (i.e. they are effectively immortal) albeit contingently immortal. I see this theory as coherent with all of scripture. I have yet to see anyone present any scripture that contradicts this theory of mine.

It seems to me that God granting a non-contingent immortality to saints who have free will, risks such saints eventually rebelling sometime in ages future, but nevertheless remaining immortal. This risk would be eliminated by making immortality contingent upon intermittent eating from the tree of life.

So basically your theory has God bribing the saints to behave? "Eat from the tree or else?" So much for freedom.

But our heavenly bodies won't be physical in the same sense as today, ie made from the elements of the earth. They will be like His glorious body made from the substance of "heaven" ie.spiritual bodies.

And you ask what the pull is for being rewarded with the King's garden and access to the Tree? Being known as the Lord's BFF (in a manner of speaking). You don't just get to walk around the city but you can enter the King's own Garden (Paradise Revelation 2:7) having the authority to do so. Only those who learn humility as Christ learned, will know the level of authority that can be granted which, is not suggesting they will have the same level of authority as Christ. The irony is, only those who don't do what is right because it is rewarded, will actually be rewarded with such authority. Their motive to repent and seek the higher "way" is simply because it is right and they seek the Lord for who He is, not what He gives. His glory is all that matters to them.

Psalm 73:25
Whom have I in heaven but You? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You.


Further, I see Rev.22:14 showing access to the Tree as a privilege, not a necessity. I also see it confirming different levels of authority among believers. Just as the Garden of Eden didn't cover the whole Earth, I believe the Paradise of God is a special place within the whole City of God.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

As far as seeing scripture which contradicts? Well, we are all guilty of seeing or not seeing what we want, so I wouldn't rest on that as a defense if I was you. Just saying.