How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[lamad]

No - what they thought they had missed was the day of Christ - which includes the rapture.

It was not just about the rapture.

Don't try to separate "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" - they go together - as one 'event'.

That depends on an ambiguous text: some Greek Texts have Day of the Lord, while other Greek text have the Day of Christ. Which term did Paul use in his first letter on the same subject? He used the Day of the Lord.

In my opinion, there are not enough scriptures about the Day of Christ to know conclusively if in Paul's mind it was any different than the Day of the Lord. After all, Christ IS Lord.

I think they feared they had missed the rapture. Paul's first letter made no mention of the Day of Christ. It is a good bet that they never heard that term.

It is VERY likely that they wrote to Paul for help, because they were very upset. Paul then starts his answer with His coming and the gathering. That tells me that was what they were worried about.

 

[lamad]

You may find it profitable to look at this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Second_Coming.html

Examine all of the 'Day of the Lord' verses in context.

And then examine all of the rest of them.

I take it you don't believe Paul's rapture will end the church age. If not, can you explain why not?

By the way, it would be much easier to just search each term in Biblegateway.

 

[lamad]

In light of scripture, this does not make good sense.

If it just continued to grow - God would simply allow it to continue - until everyone on earth were a part of it.

The return of Christ is "delayed" until the very last soul who will come to Him is saved.

No rapture will occur until there are literally no more that will come to Christ and be saved.

No, not true. God has to finish the promises he has made to the Jews, and the 70th week will be a part of those promises. Next, His plan, without much doubt, is that man will rule the world for the first 6000 years, they God HImself will rule the world for the 7th thousand years. We are very very close to the 6000 year mark. I don't believe the Jews calendar is correct.

I don't believe your last two sentences.

 

[lamad]

Jesus did not quote Daniel; rather, He made [a] reference to [something] that Daniel "spoke of"...


Antiochus was the real thing. (167 B.C.)

The authors of Matthew and Mark were not actually saying that [the reader] would see [the real thing] occur; rather, they were making [a] referrence to it in such a way that [the reader] would understand what they were trying to get across. (Because the Jews knew that [the real thing] had already occurred.)

That is why the parenthetical phrases are included.

What they were trying to get across - Luke 21:20 states very plainly.

I know it was not a direct quote. Good point.
Yes, of course Antiochus was real. Chapter 8 tells much about him. Many people try to find the end times in chapter 8, but in context that chapter is not about our future, but about ancient history now.

I believe Luk 21:20 - although it happened in the past - will happen again. I believe what Antiochus did will happen again - or something very similar, but probably not a pig.

 

[lamad]

I believe 'post-trib' starts the moment the Two Witnesses "show up on the scene"...

How do you define "trib?"

I define it as a poor title for the 70th week of Daniel.
The 70th week BEGINS with the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial. God made it plain and simple.

 

[lamad]

I am saying that only the vials constitute the Wrath of God.

The Seals and Trumpets are not part of the Wrath of God.

Then you are mistaken. Why not just follow John?

John starts the DAY of His wrath (another title for the Day of the Lord) at the 6th seal, so God certainly still has wrath at the 7th seal and certainly still has wrath at the first trumpet and second trumpet etc.

Please explain why you don't believe this as written.

 

[lamad]

No - what I meant was - after the rapture, there should not be even one left who has the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I know. But the last verse in Hebrews 9 hints strongly that believers NOT LOOKING will be left behind. It does not come right out and say it, but hints of it.

I think I understand why. Everything we get from God we get by faith. There are many believers that have STRONG FAITH they will see the man of sin first, so will not be looking for Christ to come first. I hope they will be raptured, but that verse in Hebrews 9 seems to hint otherwise. My guess then is, there will be SOME left behind because that is where their FAITH is.

 

[lamad]

I would say 'departing from the faith'.

You are free to say that. ;-)

 

[lamad]

NOPE - I have not missed what only exists in the imaginations of people who believe that the 70th week of Daniel is separate from the first 69 weeks - and, that it has not yet been fulfilled.

Daniel himself WROTE IN the gap we are living in.

John confirmed it by showing us the entire 70th week as a future event.

 

[lamad]

The prophetic words of Daniel 9:24-27 have absolutely nothing to do with the End Times Scenario.

The entire prophecy has been fulfilled.

The 70th week ended in 34 A.D.

There was/is no gap in the 70 weeks.

Verse 27 is not referring [specifically or particularly] to the 'Abomination of Desolation' that is defined in Daniel 11 and referred to [specifically] in Daniel 12.

The Olivet Discourse references to Daniel are not referring to this passage; rather, they are referring to Daniel 11:31.

You must study these verses in the context of the whole chapter.

If you study it very carefully, you should discover with absolute certainty that these verses have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with End Times events.

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

I have studied those scriptures for many years, and I disagree with how you read them.
When I was reading Daniel 9:27, when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" God spoke to me. I heard His voice and His words. He said I could find that exact midpoint "clearly marked" in the book of Revelation. Then He said I could find the entire week clearly marked.

I choose to believe what Jesus said over what others say. I think Revelation proves a future 70th week. I think those that read it otherwise symbolize much that God meant to be taken literally.

 

[lamad]

You said: "This means SOME. Can you equate SOME with THE APOSTASIA, "

Are you serious.........

Yeah, the SOME are part of the APOSTASIA as, .....................as the Lord Jesus, Paul, John and the Holy Spirit said.

So, i will go down the Road, on the Straight & Narrow Path with JESUS, Paul, John and the Holy Spirit as my Guides.

I emphasize THE...it is not just any (some) apostasia, it is a SERIOUS apostasia (whatever Paul meant by that word). It was a very significant apostasia - one that Paul expected people to instantly recognize as what he was talking about. In my mind some falling away does not meet a significant apostasia or departing.

On the other hand, the rapture would INSTANTLY be recognized as a significant departing. Just saying...

 

[Absolutely]

These TWO Comings of the LORD Jesus are the Bedrock Foundation of TRUTH observed from Genesis to Revelation.

Here they are in ONE clear instruction from the Holy Spirit = Hebrews 9:23-28

It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world:
but now once in the end of the world hath He appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Are you able to see this?

What we have here is error by omission.


If I tell a friend of mine in the next town that I am coming to pick him up 7 p.m. and tell him stand by the city limit sign and I'll pick you up on the highway. He will tell me" what Day are you coming? " I tell him tomorrow at 7 p.m.. a week later it was said in that town that I came and got him. I guess that creates a tremendous doctrinal dilemma for some legalist.
I came and got him and that is 100% truth, but I never cross the city limit sign.
Let's say a month later I moved to that City and got a job. The testimony is one and the same.
I came.

Omitting the rapture verses does not change truth or make those verses go away.

The debate would be productive, if the anti pretribbers either make their case or incorporate the postrib verses.

By now we see it aint happening.

 

[Absolutely]

No - what they thought they had missed was the day of Christ - which includes the rapture.

It was not just about the rapture.

Don't try to separate "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" - they go together - as one 'event'.

so 1 thes 4
Rev 14:14
And rev 19 are all one event?

You have all 3 pointing to the same event?

You have " like manner" from acts 1, describing rev 14 and rev 19?

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, I know. But the last verse in Hebrews 9 hints strongly that believers NOT LOOKING will be left behind. It does not come right out and say it, but hints of it.

I think I understand why. Everything we get from God we get by faith. There are many believers that have STRONG FAITH they will see the man of sin first, so will not be looking for Christ to come first. I hope they will be raptured, but that verse in Hebrews 9 seems to hint otherwise. My guess then is, there will be SOME left behind because that is where their FAITH is.

That is 100% truth

 

[Absolutely]

If the Resurrection in Christ has Christ as firstfruits, then it stands to follow that there is a main as well as 1 or 2 following " main" (the rapture).

All being in 1st resurrection.

"1st resurrection" would necessitate "2nd".

Those clinging to a resurrection in Rev 20 are on a big rabbit trail, because that scene is AFTER Armageddon and those martyrs are ALREADY SEATED on thrones.

(And how long are they seated? A month? A year?)

^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^

 

[Absolutely]

Why did you side step my question? Are you above answering questions?

Do you agree that the Revelation 19 coming is the same coming Jesus tells us of "after the tribulation of those days?"

Should be a no brainer.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes. Scripture never indicates that believers suffer God's wrath. And yes the Scriptures perfectly clear in stating that the time of the 70th week of Daniel aka the Tribulation is God's wrath.

You and i are victims of the times we are in.

How can anyone see rev 6 and not see that the trib is wrath from heaven?????
And yet they defend such nonsense.

Rev 6
The Fourth Seal: Death
7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come[h]!” 8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and the one who sat on it had the name Death, and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, and famine, and [j]plague, and by the wild animals of the earth.

We see all 3 judgement, wrath, and trib....right from the start of the 7 year gt

 

[DavidTree]

I emphasize THE...it is not just any (some) apostasia, it is a SERIOUS apostasia (whatever Paul meant by that word). It was a very significant apostasia - one that Paul expected people to instantly recognize as what he was talking about. In my mind some falling away does not meet a significant apostasia or departing.

On the other hand, the rapture would INSTANTLY be recognized as a significant departing. Just saying...

Open your eyes, the falling away has been taking place for quite some time - easily recognizable and preparations for the Antichrist in full bloom - now.
This admonition of the Lord/Paul/John/Holy Spirit is to Believers, not to the blind, religious and ungodly who will rejoice in it.
Remove the idol and God will allow you to see, for it is dangerous to you that you cannot see.

Matt 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless" = UNLESS WHAT Brothers?
"the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition"

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Tim 4:1

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. 1 John 2:18-19

The LORD, the Apostles Paul, John and the Holy Spirit all say the 'falling away is a departure from truth."

the error of pre-trib rapture goes against the words' of the Lord and the Apostles and Prophets and lays the trap for Matthew 24:10 - And then many will be offended, will betray one another,

And for this: But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth.
They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.

Now if, they say the resurrection is past, they will also say the rapture had occurred, along with counterfeit raptures: Matt 24:26
Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

 

[Absolutely]

There you go again.........such outbursts and accusations are unacceptable behavior here on CC.

Well they have a very hard job going against the word of God.

I could not do their job.

No wonder they say what they say

 

[Absolutely]

The Timing of Paul's rapture is in accordance with the Prophets and the word's of Christ.

You can read this in Paul's 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?


The Timing of Paul's rapture is in accordance with the Prophets and the word's of Christ.

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Return of the Son of Man
(Matthew 24:26–31; Mark 13:24–27)

25There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. 26Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”


Daniel chapter 7

This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it. And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings.
He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.
Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

You just made a case that the AC kills all the saints during the gt.
So no postrib rapture of living is possible.

Yes postrib rapture is, as we( and yourself lol ) have proven, impossible