How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[DavidTree]

I agree, SOME will depart from the faith. This means SOME. Can you equate SOME with THE APOSTASIA, meaning a very significant one - one that all would recognize as what Paul was meaning? The truth is, when one falls away from the faith, TWO or more come into the faith. The church is growing and will continue to grow until the rapture.

What did John mean, "OF US?" Perhaps those that departed were never born again so not a real part.

You are still wrong: Paul said when someone sees TWO EVENTS, one of which must come first, they would know when they were in the Day of the Lord and that it has previously started. Of course the first event of the two is the apostasia departing. I think apostasia IS the gathering, not just connected to it.

You said: "This means SOME. Can you equate SOME with THE APOSTASIA, "

Are you serious.........

Yeah, the SOME are part of the APOSTASIA as, .....................as the Lord Jesus, Paul, John and the Holy Spirit said.

So, i will go down the Road, on the Straight & Narrow Path with JESUS, Paul, John and the Holy Spirit as my Guides.

 

[GaryA]

Okay. Care to elaborate?

If you show me something else, I will check it out. I will cross reference whatever you say against my own knowledge and a study of the scriptures. That's what I always do. I'm not opposed to changing my views either. I do that readily if I am given something compelling enough.

The prophetic words of Daniel 9:24-27 have absolutely nothing to do with the End Times Scenario.

The entire prophecy has been fulfilled.

The 70th week ended in 34 A.D.

There was/is no gap in the 70 weeks.

Verse 27 is not referring [specifically or particularly] to the 'Abomination of Desolation' that is defined in Daniel 11 and referred to [specifically] in Daniel 12.

The Olivet Discourse references to Daniel are not referring to this passage; rather, they are referring to Daniel 11:31.

You must study these verses in the context of the whole chapter.

If you study it very carefully, you should discover with absolute certainty that these verses have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with End Times events.

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

 

[GaryA]

There is no prophetic End Times 7-year period mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

You must study it again. You missed it.

NOPE - I have not missed what only exists in the imaginations of people who believe that the 70th week of Daniel is separate from the first 69 weeks - and, that it has not yet been fulfilled.

 

[GaryA]

I would agree if you said "which is the departing and the man of sin revealed."

I would say 'departing from the faith'.

 

[GaryA]

Read the last verse (28) of Hebrews 9

No - what I meant was - after the rapture, there should not be even one left who has the Holy Spirit.

 

[GaryA]

Yes, OF COURSE His wrath is in the vials. No one will disagree with that.

I am saying that only the vials constitute the Wrath of God.

The Seals and Trumpets are not part of the Wrath of God.

 

[GaryA]

Just so you know, "post trib" does not begin until the 7th vial that ENDS the week.

I believe 'post-trib' starts the moment the Two Witnesses "show up on the scene"...

 

[GaryA]

If that were so, then Jesus quoted "very little truth."

Jesus did not quote Daniel; rather, He made [a] reference to [something] that Daniel "spoke of"...

The word "midst" there, meaning middle or half, tells us the week will be divided by some event that will stop the daily sacrifices. Daniel shows us a TYPE in Antiochus that stopped the daily sacrifices by entering the Holy of Holies and setting up an image of Zeus. The Antichrist Beast, being an "antitype" will do the same, probably setting up an image of himself.

Antiochus was the real thing. (167 B.C.)

The authors of Matthew and Mark were not actually saying that [the reader] would see [the real thing] occur; rather, they were making [a] referrence to it in such a way that [the reader] would understand what they were trying to get across. (Because the Jews knew that [the real thing] had already occurred.)

That is why the parenthetical phrases are included.

What they were trying to get across - Luke 21:20 states very plainly.

 

[GaryA]

The church is growing and will continue to grow until the rapture.

In light of scripture, this does not make good sense.

If it just continued to grow - God would simply allow it to continue - until everyone on earth were a part of it.

The return of Christ is "delayed" until the very last soul who will come to Him is saved.

No rapture will occur until there are literally no more that will come to Christ and be saved.

 

[GaryA]

What will END the church age? Paul's pretrib rapture will end the church age and START the Day of the Lord.

You may find it profitable to look at this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Second_Coming.html

Examine all of the 'Day of the Lord' verses in context.

And then examine all of the rest of them.

 

[GaryA]

The inference is pretty clear.........the Thessalonians thought that they had missed the rapture. Conjecture yes but a sound one.

No - what they thought they had missed was the day of Christ - which includes the rapture.

It was not just about the rapture.

Don't try to separate "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" - they go together - as one 'event'.

 

[GaryA]

There is no prophetic End Times 7-year period mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

You must study it again. You missed it.

Yes
In bible gateway there are over 500 references to "7".

.
.
.

I just saw that after all that discussion over "7" and some calling "7" a nothingburger in the end times. LOL

I said:

There is no prophetic End Times 7-year period mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

I was not speaking generally of the number 7.

 

[GaryA]

Just read the text: there are "those days" of GT.

Just FYI - it does not say:

"those days" of GT

- it says:

the tribulation of "those days"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believe 'post-trib' starts the moment the Two Witnesses "show up on the scene"...

... which is 1260 days before the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (which is the point in time when they are killed, are resurrected from the dead, and ascend up into Heaven), per Rev11:11-14[15a], Rev8:13

(note: there are not "1260 days" between "Trumpets"... thus they [the 2W] exist "on the scene" during more than the "6th Trumpet" events alone, but also during prior Trumpets)

 

[GaryA]

... which is 1260 days before the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (which is the point in time when they are killed, are resurrected from the dead, and ascend up into Heaven), per Rev11:11-14[15a], Rev8:13

(note: there are not "1260 days" between "Trumpets"... thus they [the 2W] exist "on the scene" during more than the "6th Trumpet" events alone, but also during prior Trumpets)

'between' - of course not.

'prior' - absolutely.

I believe the span of time of the Two Witnesses ['event'] is [at least] 3.5 years in length - and, that the Two Witnesses cause the Trumpet Events. (until they are killed)

 

[cv5]

No - what they thought they had missed was the day of Christ - which includes the rapture.

It was not just about the rapture.

Don't try to separate "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" - they go together - as one 'event'.

Maybe you missed my point but they were concerned that they missed the pre-trib rapture.....indubitably.

 

[lamad]

He said the days would be shortened - presumedly, so that scripture would be fulfilled (which states there will be [some] Christians alive after most of them will be killed) - and - He no-doubt wants [some] alive at the resurrection/rapture.

The Bible also says that the Church will not go [totally] out of existance [on the earth].

Which means there must be some alive when He returns.

~

I believe the GT began circa 70 A.D. - and, will end at some point in the future.

I believe it will be the Two Witnesses "arriving on the scene" that will mark the end of the GT. (rather than the return of Christ)

I believe the return of Christ will occur directly after the Two Witnesses are raised up.

You have to look at the pertinent passages of scripture according to God's Timing.

The GT is a long period of time and not a short one.

We are in it now.

The Dark Ages, the World Wars, etc. (in 'event' terms) are all included in the GT.

The worst is yet to come.

Gary, I have never heard it put that way before on the greak tribulation (GT). I agree with you because I think that is exactly the GT John told us the great crowd came out of - the trials and tribulation people live through on earth. However, this is not the same GT Jesus spoke about that would be after the abomination. The GT Jesus spoke about will be caused by the Beast and False Prophet demanding people worship their image and take their mark - or lose their head. it will be this GT that will be worse than any other time ever. About THIS GT, Jesus said "those days" of great tribulation. That means some of the days of the last half of the 70th week will be days where the Beast, the False Prophet and all who will work with them will be murdering people who refuse to worship their image or take their mark. These days of GT will begin right after God warns people not to take the mark (Rev. 14) and will end when God sends the angels to pour out the vials with the plagues to shorten those days. They will not go to the end of the week. The WEEK will continue to finish the final 1260 days, but some of those days will no longer be days of GT where people are hunted down like animals and beheaded.

I believe the return of Christ will occur directly after the Two Witnesses are raised up. If you follow the scriptures and recognize John's parenthesis, the two witnesses show up and begin their witness just days before the midpoint, and testify mostly the entire last half of the week. They are killed just 3.5 days before the 7th vial that ends the week, lay dead those 3.5 days, then are resurrected with all the other old Testament saints at the 7th vial. You said "directly after. It will be some UNKNOWN time after the 7th vial before chapter 19 and Christ's return on the white horse. Perhaps it will be on Daniel's 1290th day. Only Father God knows.

I believe it will be the Two Witnesses "arriving on the scene" that will mark the end of the GT. (rather than the return of Christ) Sorry, but this is not what John shows us. They arrive just (probably 3.5) days before the midpoint where the man of sin will enter the temple. The Beast will not have risen to power yet to CAUSE those days of GT. But He will soon rise to power as shown in Rev. 13. Soon after that the False Prophet will show up, and the false Prophet will plan the image and probably the mark. Finally, after the image and mark are created and after God sends His warnings as shown in Rev. 14, the days of GT will begin - the days Jesus spoke of.

For the most part, the 70th week is pointed to the Jews, not to the remnant of believers in Christ left on earth. (Rev. 12)

 

[lamad]

'between' - of course not.

'prior' - absolutely.

I believe the span of time of the Two Witnesses ['event'] is [at least] 3.5 years in length - and, that the Two Witnesses cause the Trumpet Events. (until they are killed)

Sorry, disagree: the first 6 trumpets are already sounded when the Two Witnesses show up. But they WILL testify for their 1260 days - but most of that time will be in the second half of the week. Rev. 11:4-13 is written as a parenthesis outside of John's chronology. He takes the readers on a SIDE journey with the Two Witnesses only.

 

[lamad]

... which is 1260 days before the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (which is the point in time when they are killed, are resurrected from the dead, and ascend up into Heaven), per Rev11:11-14[15a], Rev8:13

(note: there are not "1260 days" between "Trumpets"... thus they [the 2W] exist "on the scene" during more than the "6th Trumpet" events alone, but also during prior Trumpets)

No, sorry, but you have missed a parenthesis that goes from 11:4 through 11:13. John takes the readers on a side journey down the last half of the week OUTSIDE of His chronology with the Two Witnesses only, with a parenthesis. John did not use any marks, but he certainly used parenthesis. The truth is, they will be killed just 3.5 days before the end of the week and lay dead those three days - then rise with all the rest of the OT saints - at the 7th vial.

 

[lamad]

Just FYI - it does not say:

"those days" of GT

- it says:

the tribulation of "those days"

The order makes no difference: my point was, God did not put a title on those days of GT. There will be days, probably not years. I doubt if the days will add up to 3 years. John does not tell us.