How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[lamad]

Like i said before, you are a later comer here - all the pre-tribbers know that i declare only Scripture on this subject.
i have always spoken the TRUTH = 1 Thessalonians 1:10

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

A.) wait for the Lord's Coming
B.) the Resurrection
C.) the Lamb delivers us from the wrath of the Lamb

One Second Coming with two outcomes = Deliverance for His Elect and wrath upon the ungodly = John 3:16-18

The only people who add and take away from God's word are those who desperately want pre-trib to be true.

1 Thessalonians 1:10: I am glad you brought this up. First, not only is there coming the wrath of the Lamb, but God the Father has wrath also. I noticed that you MIS-quoted that verse. It only says "wrath to come." Why do you add to scripture?

There are many verses telling us WHO God's wrath is pointed towards: Here is one example of several:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

I have pointed this out again and again, and you have ignored it ever time. WHERE in Revelation's timeline does God's wrath begin? Do this: search for the word "wrath" and find its first use in the book of Revelation. It will point you to this verse:

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

In context:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Do you agree then that HERE: at the 6th seal, is where God's wrath begins?

 

[cv5]

Mr. Blasphemy himself = CV5 =who changes Scripture with no fear of God in your heart

You changed/twisted/adulterated 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 to say the 'falling away is 'pre-trib rapture'

You will give an account and pay for this evil.

CV5, Nehimiah6 and other are the false friends of Job

There you go again.........such outbursts and accusations are unacceptable behavior here on CC.

 

[lamad]

You failed both English and Math Class with your 'adding and taking away' from God's words = multiple Second Comings of Christ

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

The LORDS's words are a shield to me that protects me from those who lie and speak of a false pre-trib rapture which God never spoke - not once.

Why did you side step my question? Are you above answering questions?

Do you agree that the Revelation 19 coming is the same coming Jesus tells us of "after the tribulation of those days?"

 

[lamad]

You know, you hit some hot buttons here.

Everyone who says the LORD wil pre-trib rapture His Elect add to God's words as satan did in the Garden.

Nehemiah6, you have had 3 months to bring forth one scripture that states 'Christ will rapture His Elect BEFORE HIS COMING and the RESURRECTION.

Not one time, not one verse, never have you or anyone been able to find in scripture what does not exist.

There is no sin of accepting the word's of CHRIST who says: Matt ch24

While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Nehemiah6, for my love you have continually poured out hate - the Lord did not do this - read John ch8

Anyone can play that game:

THE POST-TRIB RAPTURE:
Not one time, not one verse, never have you or anyone been able to find in scripture to prove what does not exist in scripture: Paul's rapture coming post-trib.

 

[cv5]

1 Thessalonians 1:10: I am glad you brought this up. First, not only is there coming the wrath of the Lamb, but God the Father has wrath also. I noticed that you MIS-quoted that verse. It only says "wrath to come." Why do you add to scripture?

There are many verses telling us WHO God's wrath is pointed towards: Here is one example of several:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

I have pointed this out again and again, and you have ignored it ever time. WHERE in Revelation's timeline does God's wrath begin? Do this: search for the word "wrath" and find its first use in the book of Revelation. It will point you to this verse:

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

In context:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Do you agree then that HERE: at the 6th seal, is where God's wrath begins?

Yes. Scripture never indicates that believers suffer God's wrath. And yes the Scriptures perfectly clear in stating that the time of the 70th week of Daniel aka the Tribulation is God's wrath.

 

[lamad]

Mr. Blasphemy himself = CV5 =who changes Scripture with no fear of God in your heart

You changed/twisted/adulterated 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 to say the 'falling away is 'pre-trib rapture'

You will give an account and pay for this evil.

CV5, Nehimiah6 and other are the false friends of Job

You changed/twisted/adulterated 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 to say the 'falling away is 'pre-trib rapture'

Did you not read what Peter said about Paul's writing?

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I understand it is difficult for some to understand Paul's writing, and 2 thes. 2 is a great example. I would ask for you to exegete that passage for us, but I know you would ignore my request. I can understand why you never answer any questions about that passage. I think you fit the people Peter was talking about: "they that are unlearned and unstable..." You simply cannot understand what Paul was doing in that passage. Case in point? Answer these questions:
Why is Paul's use of "apostasia" actually his answer to the restraining power being "taken out of the way?"
Who is the restrainer in this passage? You should know because Paul TOLD us.

 

[DavidTree]

Anyone can play that game:

THE POST-TRIB RAPTURE:
Not one time, not one verse, never have you or anyone been able to find in scripture to prove what does not exist in scripture: Paul's rapture coming post-trib.

The LORD Jesus Christ said, says, will continue to say this until HE Arrives.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Can you find one verse that states just as CLEAR as this in Matt 24:29-31, that the LORD will pre-trib rapture His Elect"???

No one has been able for the past 3 months...........go for it.

RULES APPLY = READ and OBEY the RULES set Forth by the LORD

#1.) Deuteronomy 4:1-2
#2.) Proverbs 30:5-6
#3.) Revelation 22:18-19

 

[lamad]

Yes. Scripture never indicates that believers suffer God's wrath. And yes the Scriptures perfectly clear in stating that the time of the 70th week of Daniel aka the Tribulation is God's wrath.

It is important, when discussing the TIMING of Paul's rapture, to know where Paul places his rapture and where "the trib" is on a timeline. Revelation gives us a perfect timeline. Most people who say they are "pretrib" cannot accurately show us where these two events are on Revelation's timeline.

 

[lamad]

The LORD Jesus Christ said, says, will continue to say this until HE Arrives.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Can you find one verse that states just as CLEAR as this in Matt 24:29-31, that the LORD will pre-trib rapture His Elect"???

No one has been able for the past 3 months...........go for it.

RULES APPLY = READ and OBEY the RULES set Forth by the LORD

#1.) Deuteronomy 4:1-2
#2.) Proverbs 30:5-6
#3.) Revelation 22:18-19

the LORD will pre-trib rapture His Elect"???
This is a false question: It assumes that Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. So far, you have given us NO SCRIPTURE that proves Matthew 24's gathering is Paul's gathering.

Try asking an intelligent, scriptural question.

We all agree that Matthew 24 tells us of a gathering.

Did you not understand that this too is a "gathering," though not stated as such?

Rev. 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Take note that John saw this great crowd in heaven, JUST AFTER the start of Wrath as shown at the 6th seal.

According to your theory, John should have seen this crowd somewhere in chapter 19: Christ's coming after the trib.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS apparent contradiction?

 

[Absolutely]

Good post.






Revelation 14:4 says (re: the 144,000), "These are they who have not been defiled with women; for they are pure, these following the Lamb wherever He shall go. These have been redeemed out from men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." (compare with Lev23:17... the second of two distinct mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23).


What do you believe it means by its saying they are "firstfruit"? (since we / "the Church which is His body" are also called "firstfruit")



[again, as I said before, the word "firstfruit" ≠ "rapture"... they don't mean the same thing (are not "defined" the same)... but my question to you, DavidTree, is... what does it mean for the "144,000" (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel listed in chpt 7) to be called "firstfruit" (Rev14:4)?? "Firstfruit" what??]

Wheat
Barley
Grapes

Are all crushed

 

[DavidTree]

It is important, when discussing the TIMING of Paul's rapture, to know where Paul places his rapture and where "the trib" is on a timeline. Revelation gives us a perfect timeline. Most people who say they are "pretrib" cannot accurately show us where these two events are on Revelation's timeline.

The Timing of Paul's rapture is in accordance with the Prophets and the word's of Christ.

You can read this in Paul's 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?


The Timing of Paul's rapture is in accordance with the Prophets and the word's of Christ.

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Return of the Son of Man
(Matthew 24:26–31; Mark 13:24–27)

25There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves. 26Men will faint from fear and anxiety over what is coming upon the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”


Daniel chapter 7

This is what he said: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms, and it will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it. And the ten horns are ten kings who will rise from this kingdom. After them another king, different from the earlier ones, will rise and subdue three kings.
He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time.

But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.
Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

 

[Absolutely]

I hope you realize that "first" in this case does not mean first in a sequence, but rather first in honor, as in chief of resurrections. Neither does it mean that there cannot be other resurrections before this one. The truth is, this chief of resurrections is for ALL the righteous and Jesus was the first to partake of this chief of resurrections.

In other words, if we look up the Greek word behind "first" we find it can be first in sequence but it can also be first in honor. Since we KNOW Jesus' resurrection could not be of the "second death" resurrection, His resurrection must then be a part of the other resurrection, since John gives us only two.

As I read scripture, Jesus was the first to partake of this chief of all resurrections, the next wave will be the church, pretrib, then the 144,000 as firstfruits of the Hebrews, then the Old Testament saints, along with the Two Witnesses and the beheaded last.

Note: John told us of this chief of all resurrections in chapter 20, but it covers all time. It is not limited to the timing of chapter 20.

ALL who are not in the FIRST resurrection will suffer the second death which is eternal Hell I agree, unless there will still be people in natural bodies.

If the Resurrection in Christ has Christ as firstfruits, then it stands to follow that there is a main as well as 1 or 2 following " main" (the rapture).

All being in 1st resurrection.

"1st resurrection" would necessitate "2nd".

Those clinging to a resurrection in Rev 20 are on a big rabbit trail, because that scene is AFTER Armageddon and those martyrs are ALREADY SEATED on thrones.

(And how long are they seated? A month? A year?)

 

[Runningman]

1 Thessalonians 1:10: I am glad you brought this up. First, not only is there coming the wrath of the Lamb, but God the Father has wrath also. I noticed that you MIS-quoted that verse. It only says "wrath to come." Why do you add to scripture?

There are many verses telling us WHO God's wrath is pointed towards: Here is one example of several:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

I have pointed this out again and again, and you have ignored it ever time. WHERE in Revelation's timeline does God's wrath begin? Do this: search for the word "wrath" and find its first use in the book of Revelation. It will point you to this verse:

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

In context:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Do you agree then that HERE: at the 6th seal, is where God's wrath begins?

I personally agree the 6th seal is the beginning of God's wrath and it happens after the great tribulation. The great tribulation itself is not God's wrath. I have a feeling you will disagree, at first, but stick with me here and hear me out.

Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Isaiah 13:9-13
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Revelation 6:12-14
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


See what just happened here? There is a one-to-one correlation with the day of the Lord (God's wrath) described with the exact signs in Matthew 24, Isaiah 13, and Revelation 6. The 6th seal occurs immediately after the great tribulation, meaning the great tribulation is not God's wrath. The day of the Lord begins post-trib.

 

[lamad]

I personally agree the 6th seal is the beginning of God's wrath and it happens after the great tribulation. The great tribulation itself is not God's wrath. I have a feeling you will disagree, at first, but stick with me here and hear me out.

Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Isaiah 13:9-13
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Revelation 6:12-14
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


See what just happened here? There is a one-to-one correlation with the day of the Lord (God's wrath) described with the exact signs in Matthew 24, Isaiah 13, and Revelation 6. The 6th seal occurs immediately after the great tribulation, meaning the great tribulation is not God's wrath. The day of the Lord begins post-trib.

I personally agree the 6th seal is the beginning of God's wrath and it happens after the great tribulation.

You are right: I will disagree. You have not studied these cosmic signs to note that they are different and happen over 7 years apart and that they are for two different purposes. I have a feeling you will disagree, at first, but stick with me here and hear me out.

The Rev. 6 - 6th seal - sign is speaking of SEEN evidence: a sun turning black - speaking or a total eclipse of the sun - and a moon appearing blood red - speaking of a total eclipse of the moon. Please take note: the ONLY way someone then would know the sun appeared black as sackcloth would be for them to SEE the sun appearing black. The only way one would know the moon appeared blood red would be that they SAW the moon as red.

On the other hand, the Matthew 24 sign is different. It is UNSEEN. The sun and moon will be invisible as will the stars be also: it is speaking of TOTAL DARKNESS.

The Greek word behind “darkened” is “skotizo.” Strong’s gives us this definition:

“I. to cover with darkness, to darken
II. to be covered with darkness, be darkened
....A. of heavenly bodies as deprived of light” (Strong’s Concordance)


Think about this: “to cover with darkness.” Or “of heavenly bodies as deprived of light.’ Since this verse is certainly speaking of heavenly bodies, then “deprived of light” is our best definition. If the sun and moon are deprived of light, this means they are invisible.

Then when Jesus spoke of His appearing as lightning across the sky, that too hints strongly of darkness. Added to that the fact that one of the vials with plagues speaks of total darkness.

Finally, the very fact that Jesus coming "after the trib" of those days parallels Rev. 19, but the 6th seal sign is in chapter 6, I find it silly to imagine these are speaking of the same signs. There is just too much evidence that then are different signs. Next, what is the PURPOSE of each sign?

The 6th seal sign is for the start of the DAY. The "after the trib" sign is the sign of His coming. Again, to imagine these are the same sign is silly to me: just too much evidence to the contrary.

I think the Isaiah sign aligns with the Matthew 24 sign, while the Joel 2 sign aligns with the Rev, 6 sign as BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

 

[lamad]

If the Resurrection in Christ has Christ as firstfruits, then it stands to follow that there is a main as well as 1 or 2 following " main" (the rapture).

All being in 1st resurrection.

"1st resurrection" would necessitate "2nd".

Those clinging to a resurrection in Rev 20 are on a big rabbit trail, because that scene is AFTER Armageddon and those martyrs are ALREADY SEATED on thrones.

(And how long are they seated? A month? A year?)

Good points!

 

[DavidTree]

I personally agree the 6th seal is the beginning of God's wrath and it happens after the great tribulation.

You are right: I will disagree. You have not studied these cosmic signs to note that they are different and happen over 7 years apart and that they are for two different purposes. I have a feeling you will disagree, at first, but stick with me here and hear me out.

The Rev. 6 - 6th seal - sign is speaking of SEEN evidence: a sun turning black - speaking or a total eclipse of the sun - and a moon appearing blood red - speaking of a total eclipse of the moon. Please take note: the ONLY way someone then would know the sun appeared black as sackcloth would be for them to SEE the sun appearing black. The only way one would know the moon appeared blood red would be that they SAW the moon as red.

On the other hand, the Matthew 24 sign is different. It is UNSEEN. The sun and moon will be invisible as will the stars be also: it is speaking of TOTAL DARKNESS.

The Greek word behind “darkened” is “skotizo.” Strong’s gives us this definition:

“I. to cover with darkness, to darken
II. to be covered with darkness, be darkened
....A. of heavenly bodies as deprived of light” (Strong’s Concordance)


Think about this: “to cover with darkness.” Or “of heavenly bodies as deprived of light.’ Since this verse is certainly speaking of heavenly bodies, then “deprived of light” is our best definition. If the sun and moon are deprived of light, this means they are invisible.

Then when Jesus spoke of His appearing as lightning across the sky, that too hints strongly of darkness. Added to that the fact that one of the vials with plagues speaks of total darkness.

Finally, the very fact that Jesus coming "after the trib" of those days parallels Rev. 19, but the 6th seal sign is in chapter 6, I find it silly to imagine these are speaking of the same signs. There is just too much evidence that then are different signs. Next, what is the PURPOSE of each sign?

The 6th seal sign is for the start of the DAY. The "after the trib" sign is the sign of His coming. Again, to imagine these are the same sign is silly to me: just too much evidence to the contrary.

I think the Isaiah sign aligns with the Matthew 24 sign, while the Joel 2 sign aligns with the Rev, 6 sign as BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

This is where you stumble, in your mind and then you speak words that become your stumbling block:
Your words:
"I find it silly to imagine these are speaking of the same signs. "
"Try asking an intelligent, scriptural question."
"Did you not understand that this too is a "gathering," though not stated as such?"
"I understand it is difficult for some to understand Paul's writing, and 2 thes. 2 is a great example. I would ask for you to exegete that passage for us, but I know you would ignore my request. I can understand why you never answer any questions about that passage. I think you fit the people Peter was talking about: "they that are unlearned and unstable..." You simply cannot understand what Paul was doing in that passage."

Your pride

"Before his downfall a man’s heart is proud, but humility comes before honor."

Matt 24 , 1 Thess , 2 Thess 2:1-3 , Daniel ch7 , 1 John 2:14-19 and James ch5 is your complete undoing

If you humble yourself before the LORD, HE will lift you up - that's a Promise HE always keeps.

 

[lamad]

The Timing of Paul's rapture is in accordance with the Prophets and the word's of Christ.

You can read this in Paul's 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?


The Timing of Paul's rapture is in accordance with the Prophets and the word's of Christ.

...
...

Let's add verses 6-8 to get a complete picture:

1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers,
[ Here Paul sets his THEME for this passage (so they must be included in any exegesis) His coming and our gathering.]

2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. [Apparently they received a letter telling them that the Day of the Lord had already come and they were IN IT. It must be noted that when they began to believe they were IN the Day of the lord, they were upset and troubled.]

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. [ Here Paul is starting his argument as to why they were NOT inside the Day of the Lord. ]

4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God. [Here Paul tells us what the man of sin will do after he is revealed.]

5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? [Paul had explained this when he was there.]

6 And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. [Here Paul tells the readers that now, after reading the first 5 verses, all readers should KNOW who or what the restrainer is, and that the man of sin will be revealed at the proper time.]

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, [Here Paul explains that the devil was already at work, but was being restrained until such time as he - the restraining power - is "taken out of the way."]

8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. [Here Paul tells us that once the power - the HE - restraining the man of sin, preventing his revealing until the proper time, will be taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin will be revealed.]

Verse 1: somewhere in this passage Paul MUST show the gathering - the rapture. It is his theme.

Verse 2: Why were they so upset and troubled after learning the falsehood that they were in the Day of the Lord? If Paul had taught them that they would be raptured after all the "tribulation" then they should have been excited thinking the rapture must come soon.

On the other hand, if Paul had taught them that the rapture would come before the Day (EXACTLY what his first letter told them) and then they began to believe that the Day had come and they were in it - no wonder they were troubled. Either Paul had been mistaken, or they had missed the gathering!

Verse 3: I will sum up Paul's argument: Don't be deceived: a significant departing must come first, as the restrainer being "taken out of the way," then the man of sin will be revealed. Anyone who sees this significant departing, then sees the man of sin revealed will KNOW the Day has come and they are IN IT.

This is John's order of things in Revelation: the DAY comes at the 6th seal in chapter 6, and the man of sin is revealed somewhere before chapter 3. By that time (chapter 13) all will know THE DAY has started and they are in it. John and Paul agree.

Now lets drill down: Why did Paul write, "and now you know who is restraining..." in verse 6? The answer should be obvious: somewhere in verses 1-5 PAUL TOLD US - but perhaps did it in a cloaked manner so wrote "now you know" so the reader would go back and find it.

ANY correct theory on Paul's meaning MUST include WHO the restrainer is. The truth is, most people only guess and often guess wrong. The question is, WHERE in verses 1-5 does Paul revealed who the restrainer is? It is in verse 3, but again, with a false theory most are in error.

Why did Paul release (remove the restrainer) the man of sin in 3b? MANY English translations have "is revealed." Verse 4 proves Paul's meaning as "Is revealed" because verse 4 tells us what the man of sin will do after he is revealed. Since verses 6-8 tell us he CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining this revealing is "taken out of the way" then any serious student must ask HOW did he get revealed (IS revealed) in 3b? It should be obvious (most beginning students miss it) that somewhere in verse 3a, the power restraining the man of sin is taken out of the way. It MUST be somewhere in these words: Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first....

The restrainer taken out of the way CANNOT be hidden in "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way."
"For that day..." What day? Of course the Day of the Lord from verse 2. Can the restrainer removed be hidden in "for that day?" No. We are down now to the last phrase: unless the apostasy comes first.

Somehow, the restrainer taken out of the way MUST BE hidden in this phrase. If we use the KJV solution - the "falling away" then a falling away (from what we don't know) must be the restrainer removed. Frankly, I can't see how people falling away from something or NOT falling away from something can have anything to do with restraining.

Next, is a "falling away" the same thing as a gathering - Paul showing us where his theme is fulfilled? No, it cannot be.

If we just "departing" as several of the PRE-KJV translations used, what then could a "significant departing" mean? (All Greek texts have a THE before apostasia - it is not just any departing, it is THE departing. In other words, a departing ALL READERS should know about. Would the departing of the church at the rapture be a departing all Paul's readers would know about? Certainly it would be, and the departing of the church in the rapture would SATISFY Paul's theme.

If by "the departing" Paul's intent is the rapture, then who is the "He" that is restraining or preventing the man of sin from being revealed before his time? That would be the Holy Spirit anointing upon each believer. Once the church has departed earth, suddenly there is NO ONE on earth anointed by the Holy Spirit. This is what will allow the man of sin to be revealed, as Paul in his argument shows us in 3b.

Now we know why Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining." The answer is, PAUL TOLD HIS READERS - but did it in a way that takes some study. As Peter told us, some of Paul's letters are hard to understand. A beginning reader would not get this. Someone who just reads without study would not get it.

Therefore, I disagree with your take on this passage. I don't believe you have Paul's intended meaning. Take what Peter said to heart: some of Paul's letters are difficult.

 

[lamad]

This is where you stumble, in your mind and then you speak words that become your stumbling block:
Your words:
"I find it silly to imagine these are speaking of the same signs. "
"Try asking an intelligent, scriptural question."
"Did you not understand that this too is a "gathering," though not stated as such?"
"I understand it is difficult for some to understand Paul's writing, and 2 thes. 2 is a great example. I would ask for you to exegete that passage for us, but I know you would ignore my request. I can understand why you never answer any questions about that passage. I think you fit the people Peter was talking about: "they that are unlearned and unstable..." You simply cannot understand what Paul was doing in that passage."

Your pride

"Before his downfall a man’s heart is proud, but humility comes before honor."

Matt 24 , 1 Thess , 2 Thess 2:1-3 , Daniel ch7 , 1 John 2:14-19 and James ch5 is your complete undoing

If you humble yourself before the LORD, HE will lift you up - that's a Promise HE always keeps.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do find it silly to equate two things are are not in any way similar. Only a beginning bible student would equate the signs at the 6th seal with the signs after the trib of those days. Why? Simple: they are two different signs that will happen over 7 years apart and they are signs for two different events.

It seems you are averse to good bible study. You - who seem to have all the answers - albeit WRONG answers.
Prove me wrong: answer the questions asked of you? Perhaps it is you who is too proud. Remember Jesus' story of the log in one's eye? You are too funny!

 

[Absolutely]

Mat 24 has 2 comings.
One before the flood( pretrib)
One after the trib.

That "undos" all postrib rapture talking points

Game
Set
Match

Mat 24 is not going away
And neither are the other rapture verses

Every single rapture verse is peacetime and life as normal.

Every post trib second coming on horses is in war and power.

 

[DavidTree]

Let's add verses 6-8 to get a complete picture:

1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers,
[ Here Paul sets his THEME for this passage (so they must be included in any exegesis) His coming and our gathering.]

2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. [Apparently they received a letter telling them that the Day of the Lord had already come and they were IN IT. It must be noted that when they began to believe they were IN the Day of the lord, they were upset and troubled.]

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. [ Here Paul is starting his argument as to why they were NOT inside the Day of the Lord. ]

4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God. [Here Paul tells us what the man of sin will do after he is revealed.]

5 Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? [Paul had explained this when he was there.]

6 And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. [Here Paul tells the readers that now, after reading the first 5 verses, all readers should KNOW who or what the restrainer is, and that the man of sin will be revealed at the proper time.]

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, [Here Paul explains that the devil was already at work, but was being restrained until such time as he - the restraining power - is "taken out of the way."]

8 and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. [Here Paul tells us that once the power - the HE - restraining the man of sin, preventing his revealing until the proper time, will be taken out of the way, THEN the man of sin will be revealed.]

Verse 1: somewhere in this passage Paul MUST show the gathering - the rapture. It is his theme.

Verse 2: Why were they so upset and troubled after learning the falsehood that they were in the Day of the Lord? If Paul had taught them that they would be raptured after all the "tribulation" then they should have been excited thinking the rapture must come soon.

On the other hand, if Paul had taught them that the rapture would come before the Day (EXACTLY what his first letter told them) and then they began to believe that the Day had come and they were in it - no wonder they were troubled. Either Paul had been mistaken, or they had missed the gathering!

Verse 3: I will sum up Paul's argument: Don't be deceived: a significant departing must come first, as the restrainer being "taken out of the way," then the man of sin will be revealed. Anyone who sees this significant departing, then sees the man of sin revealed will KNOW the Day has come and they are IN IT.

This is John's order of things in Revelation: the DAY comes at the 6th seal in chapter 6, and the man of sin is revealed somewhere before chapter 3. By that time (chapter 13) all will know THE DAY has started and they are in it. John and Paul agree.

Now lets drill down: Why did Paul write, "and now you know who is restraining..." in verse 6? The answer should be obvious: somewhere in verses 1-5 PAUL TOLD US - but perhaps did it in a cloaked manner so wrote "now you know" so the reader would go back and find it.

ANY correct theory on Paul's meaning MUST include WHO the restrainer is. The truth is, most people only guess and often guess wrong. The question is, WHERE in verses 1-5 does Paul revealed who the restrainer is? It is in verse 3, but again, with a false theory most are in error.

Why did Paul release (remove the restrainer) the man of sin in 3b? MANY English translations have "is revealed." Verse 4 proves Paul's meaning as "Is revealed" because verse 4 tells us what the man of sin will do after he is revealed. Since verses 6-8 tell us he CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining this revealing is "taken out of the way" then any serious student must ask HOW did he get revealed (IS revealed) in 3b? It should be obvious (most beginning students miss it) that somewhere in verse 3a, the power restraining the man of sin is taken out of the way. It MUST be somewhere in these words: Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first....

The restrainer taken out of the way CANNOT be hidden in "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way."
"For that day..." What day? Of course the Day of the Lord from verse 2. Can the restrainer removed be hidden in "for that day?" No. We are down now to the last phrase: unless the apostasy comes first.

Somehow, the restrainer taken out of the way MUST BE hidden in this phrase. If we use the KJV solution - the "falling away" then a falling away (from what we don't know) must be the restrainer removed. Frankly, I can't see how people falling away from something or NOT falling away from something can have anything to do with restraining.

Next, is a "falling away" the same thing as a gathering - Paul showing us where his theme is fulfilled? No, it cannot be.

If we just "departing" as several of the PRE-KJV translations used, what then could a "significant departing" mean? (All Greek texts have a THE before apostasia - it is not just any departing, it is THE departing. In other words, a departing ALL READERS should know about. Would the departing of the church at the rapture be a departing all Paul's readers would know about? Certainly it would be, and the departing of the church in the rapture would SATISFY Paul's theme.

If by "the departing" Paul's intent is the rapture, then who is the "He" that is restraining or preventing the man of sin from being revealed before his time? That would be the Holy Spirit anointing upon each believer. Once the church has departed earth, suddenly there is NO ONE on earth anointed by the Holy Spirit. This is what will allow the man of sin to be revealed, as Paul in his argument shows us in 3b.

Now we know why Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining." The answer is, PAUL TOLD HIS READERS - but did it in a way that takes some study. As Peter told us, some of Paul's letters are hard to understand. A beginning reader would not get this. Someone who just reads without study would not get it.

Therefore, I disagree with your take on this passage. I don't believe you have Paul's intended meaning. Take what Peter said to heart: some of Paul's letters are difficult.

Here again is where you twist scripture and add/take away to God's words:
You said: "Verse 2: Why were they so upset and troubled after learning the falsehood that they were in the Day of the Lord? If Paul had taught them that they would be raptured after all the "tribulation" then they should have been excited thinking the rapture must come soon.

2 Thess 2:2 that Day/His Coming = referring back to verse 1 "our gathering to the Lord" will NOT come until
the "falling away/apostacy/rebellion and the man of sin be revealed.

the LORD Jesus said it Matt 24/Luke 21,
the Angel said it to the Prophet Daniel who wrote it down ch7 = "It is written"
the Apostle Paul said it = 1 Thess 3:1-5 , 2 Thess 2
the Apostle John said it = 1 John 2:14-19
the Prophet Job survived it = Job chapters 1 & 2
James said it ch5

SIX WITNESSES Testify against the lie of pre-trib

The only individuals who are NOT agreeing with "It is written" are those who twist the Scriptures to insert the lie of pre-trib rapture.

This is all about "It is written" = follow the Commandment set for by the LORD = Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19