Grace or Works - For It Cannot Be Both
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Re "Rejection of the Gospel of Grace leads to no other possibility than to that of works-based salvation.": Actually, the third possibility is that atheists don't believe either type of salvation is possible.
I might also point out another dichotomy: God is love/truthful or God is hateful/deceitful. He cannot be both.
I might also point out another dichotomy: God is love/truthful or God is hateful/deceitful. He cannot be both.
James 2:14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
I believe dead & useless are pretty close. A vain person is spiritually dead.
I believe dead & useless are pretty close. A vain person is spiritually dead.
James 2:14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
I believe dead & useless are pretty close. A vain person is spiritually dead.
I believe dead & useless are pretty close. A vain person is spiritually dead.
I wouldn't believe such a person. Jesus said it plainly: "You shall know them by their fruit."
Every one has faith. God has given every man the measure of faith, but no, not everyone is saved.
There's much to the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
Every one has faith. God has given every man the measure of faith, but no, not everyone is saved.
There's much to the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
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Well, I surely do not believe people that speak out of both sides of their mouth. One guy here repeatedly
bragged to me that that was what he was doing. I am not sure what he was hoping to accomplish by being
such a snake in the grass; I plainly told him that his forked tongue was repulsive.
bragged to me that that was what he was doing. I am not sure what he was hoping to accomplish by being
such a snake in the grass; I plainly told him that his forked tongue was repulsive.
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Not overlooked. It is indeed a part of the narrative where there is no requirement for works as salvational achievement.
Romans 11:1-6
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Replacement theology, one would think, would be cast aside by the various group-think hounds out there who follow that horrid system of belief without reading scripture for what it says, but the group-think, band wagon mentality prevails out there...
And so we continue:
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Those who fixate on the accusation that what I'm saying here is that this all negates works entirely, and that is not at all what is being conveyed by the scriptures nor myself. Good works are an integral, out-flowing part of a true faith, for the Lord seeks to use those who are His to accomplish good toward others. The issue, however, is that works do not at all supplement salvation, nor make it more real for the believers who by faith place their trust and adherence upon what they know the Lord accomplished in His death, burial and resurrection on the third day according to the scriptures.
I cannot count how many people I have encountered who believe people like Teresa are saved because of all their good works...
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
All the good works she did, without faith in the Gospel of Grace, she will be burning in Sheol without that faith:
Ephesians 2:5, 8
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved; ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
So, if she and others could ever be saved by any measure of good works, they have achieved what scripture clearly points out as being impossible in God's economy, and those who think they can cheat God's economy in this, they are fooling only themselves by having ignored such statements as "...that not of yourselves..." I mean, what part of that are so many missing? Putting the cart before the horse makes for comic relief such as can be seen in a Little Rascals episode where they did that very thing, demonstrating the impracticality of it all.
MM
Romans 11:1-6
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
Replacement theology, one would think, would be cast aside by the various group-think hounds out there who follow that horrid system of belief without reading scripture for what it says, but the group-think, band wagon mentality prevails out there...
And so we continue:
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Those who fixate on the accusation that what I'm saying here is that this all negates works entirely, and that is not at all what is being conveyed by the scriptures nor myself. Good works are an integral, out-flowing part of a true faith, for the Lord seeks to use those who are His to accomplish good toward others. The issue, however, is that works do not at all supplement salvation, nor make it more real for the believers who by faith place their trust and adherence upon what they know the Lord accomplished in His death, burial and resurrection on the third day according to the scriptures.
I cannot count how many people I have encountered who believe people like Teresa are saved because of all their good works...
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
All the good works she did, without faith in the Gospel of Grace, she will be burning in Sheol without that faith:
Ephesians 2:5, 8
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved; ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
So, if she and others could ever be saved by any measure of good works, they have achieved what scripture clearly points out as being impossible in God's economy, and those who think they can cheat God's economy in this, they are fooling only themselves by having ignored such statements as "...that not of yourselves..." I mean, what part of that are so many missing? Putting the cart before the horse makes for comic relief such as can be seen in a Little Rascals episode where they did that very thing, demonstrating the impracticality of it all.
MM
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James 2:14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
I believe dead & useless are pretty close. A vain person is spiritually dead.
I believe dead & useless are pretty close. A vain person is spiritually dead.
James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
That was not written TO us today. That was a part of the Kingdom Gospel, which Paul never preached to the Gentiles and the Jews to whom he preached. Paul persecuted the Church because of those teachings, he wasn't converted over to that gospel, but was given the Gospel of Grace directly from the Lord, the mystery which was hidden in God from the creation of the world. Simply look at what Peter preached as the elements of the Kingdom Gospel in Acts 2, and then compare that with Paul's gospel, and the glaring differences become very clear.
That's not to say that Peter and James preached a false Gospel. What they preached was TO Israel. Because of Israel's continued failure to embrace Christ Jesus as Messiah after His ascension, Gentiles had no other place to turn in order to find salvation for their souls:
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
It cannot be made more clear for those out there who continue to doubt.
MM
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If your doing them to "merit" salvation, ie your doing them in order to get saved. maintain your salvation, or keep from losing it. Yes
If your doing them because you trust God. and out of gratitude. and expecting nothing in return. no.
Um no. this was no invented. its the pure word of God
Um no. this was no invented. its the pure word of God
Your wrong here too. but that is beside the point.
examples of people saying we must work to be saved.
yes we can find many examples
If your doing them because you trust God. and out of gratitude. and expecting nothing in return. no.
Um no. this was no invented. its the pure word of God
Um no. this was no invented. its the pure word of God
Your wrong here too. but that is beside the point.
examples of people saying we must work to be saved.
yes we can find many examples
I was not saying that you stated the the Blood of Christ was not sufficient. That's a natural conclusion to any measure of doubt cast upon faith alone for salvation.
Please allow me to clarify:
How can works ever have any effect upon salvation when Paul clearly pointed out "...and that not of yourselves...," in Ephesians 2:8? Do you believe that one must do good works in any measure to be saved? You don't have to debate this with me. I'm just asking, because when anyone deviates away from salvation being by faith alone, then the only other conclusion that could be formulated about such a belief is that works on our part must be a part of that equation, and scripture casts that into the winds of falsehood time after time after time. If not faith alone, then what else could possibly be added?
MM
Please allow me to clarify:
How can works ever have any effect upon salvation when Paul clearly pointed out "...and that not of yourselves...," in Ephesians 2:8? Do you believe that one must do good works in any measure to be saved? You don't have to debate this with me. I'm just asking, because when anyone deviates away from salvation being by faith alone, then the only other conclusion that could be formulated about such a belief is that works on our part must be a part of that equation, and scripture casts that into the winds of falsehood time after time after time. If not faith alone, then what else could possibly be added?
MM
you would like evidence that those who are saved do the works God created them to do?
I would say the best evidence is the faith hall of fame in Heb 11.. Think of Noah, who was saved before he started to build the ark, persisted for 100 years and did not waver..
thats alot of evidence
Or Abraham, who was saved in Gen 15 before he took a step. and although he committed some sins Gods records. persisted and in the end had such great faith he was willing to offer his son.
Or king david, Again another who persisted. and even though he had many sins himself. and the end of his life was not what he expected it to be because of those sins, was still called a friend of God.
I would say the best evidence is the faith hall of fame in Heb 11.. Think of Noah, who was saved before he started to build the ark, persisted for 100 years and did not waver..
thats alot of evidence
Or Abraham, who was saved in Gen 15 before he took a step. and although he committed some sins Gods records. persisted and in the end had such great faith he was willing to offer his son.
Or king david, Again another who persisted. and even though he had many sins himself. and the end of his life was not what he expected it to be because of those sins, was still called a friend of God.
as I expected. You are one who believes you have to work to get saved.
Pauls words were to work out the salvation you have recieved. Not to work to get saved.
You can not merit salvation, The wage of sin is death, the GIFT of God is life
a gift can not be earned. And to be freed from the wage of sin. there is only one way. Death.
recieve the cross. or keep trying to earn your salvation by works. You will not like the end result.
Pauls words were to work out the salvation you have recieved. Not to work to get saved.
You can not merit salvation, The wage of sin is death, the GIFT of God is life
a gift can not be earned. And to be freed from the wage of sin. there is only one way. Death.
recieve the cross. or keep trying to earn your salvation by works. You will not like the end result.
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No,
I am saying those who are saved had faith in God for their eternity.
If you have faith in God for your eternity. you will most likely have faith in God in other areas of your life.
And when people look at you. the evidence is you persist in showing evidence of that faith.. which means you will not live as you did before in the world. where you persist in doing whatever you want (sin)
I am saying those who are saved had faith in God for their eternity.
If you have faith in God for your eternity. you will most likely have faith in God in other areas of your life.
And when people look at you. the evidence is you persist in showing evidence of that faith.. which means you will not live as you did before in the world. where you persist in doing whatever you want (sin)
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I have seen in my 40 years that fruit inspectors are like the pharisee pumping his or her chest praising God they are not like the sinner.
While the sinner does not focus on his or her sins, but calls out for Gods mercy, knowing he is not worthy. and as paul did later in his life. realized the more he found out about God. the worse a sinner he understood he was.
Mature believers do not go around boasting. They go around confessing and warning..and teaching and edifying
While the sinner does not focus on his or her sins, but calls out for Gods mercy, knowing he is not worthy. and as paul did later in his life. realized the more he found out about God. the worse a sinner he understood he was.
Mature believers do not go around boasting. They go around confessing and warning..and teaching and edifying
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By Grace is one and done
Grace can not be earned
It can only be received (through faith)
if I can not earn salvation (it is the gift of God) I can not un earn it.
Yes. people can have the truth in their hand, can chew on it. can appear to live in it. But never actually "receive the gift of Grace" and then before they have that chance, they fall from grace, having never partaken in it in a way that saves.
Grace can not be earned
It can only be received (through faith)
if I can not earn salvation (it is the gift of God) I can not un earn it.
Yes. people can have the truth in their hand, can chew on it. can appear to live in it. But never actually "receive the gift of Grace" and then before they have that chance, they fall from grace, having never partaken in it in a way that saves.