Grace or Works - For It Cannot Be Both
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This is contradicted by so many things. For example, the law says no Moabite could ever enter the congregation of the lord forever, yet Ruth, the Moabitess, and her Israelite husband were rewarded for their faith with a son who was the ancestor of David and Christ. Likewis,e David ate the showbread from the tabernacle, which was only lawful for priests to eat, yet he was held blameless because he walked by faith.
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Rom 3: 19-22:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
By the law is the knowledge of sin and by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.
Mt 7: 20:
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Gal 5: 16:
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5: 18:
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5: 22-23:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5: 25:
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Our faith is what makes us pleasing to the Lord!
2 Per 1:3-11;
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
We can walk with the Lord, growing the fruits of the Spirit and having an entrance abundantly ministered into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is made possible by the promise of the New Testament, which puts the Lord's commandments and statutes into our hearts and minds as the Holy Spirit ministers the Lord's divine nature unto us by the word of God, made alive.
Heb 9: 14-15:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 8: 8-10:
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
By the law is the knowledge of sin and by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.
Mt 7: 20:
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Gal 5: 16:
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5: 18:
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5: 22-23:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5: 25:
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Our faith is what makes us pleasing to the Lord!
2 Per 1:3-11;
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
We can walk with the Lord, growing the fruits of the Spirit and having an entrance abundantly ministered into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is made possible by the promise of the New Testament, which puts the Lord's commandments and statutes into our hearts and minds as the Holy Spirit ministers the Lord's divine nature unto us by the word of God, made alive.
Heb 9: 14-15:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 8: 8-10:
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
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Simple question.
Are you labeling obedience to the commands of Christ as working toward salvation?
You invented this issue, no one thinks or pushes this "supplement the perfection".
If you truly believe this, point out someone doing this. Not someone who you "indirectly" or "circuitously" suspect is doing this but is clearly doing this.
I am sure you can find many examples.
Are you labeling obedience to the commands of Christ as working toward salvation?
You invented this issue, no one thinks or pushes this "supplement the perfection".
If you truly believe this, point out someone doing this. Not someone who you "indirectly" or "circuitously" suspect is doing this but is clearly doing this.
I am sure you can find many examples.
No. I'm not speaking on the level of moral issues in the commands of Christ. I'm speaking of works not being any basis whatsoever toward obtaining salvation. It is by faith alone.
Indeed I did not. I encourage you to educate yourself on the various religious denominations out there, the oldest and largest of which does indeed teach a progression toward salvation through works in personal effort and sacramentalism. One only need to read the teachings that define that religion's own historic declarations. Given that, there is no need to point to anyone I know directly, although I have known many through the decades.
MM
Indeed I did not. I encourage you to educate yourself on the various religious denominations out there, the oldest and largest of which does indeed teach a progression toward salvation through works in personal effort and sacramentalism. One only need to read the teachings that define that religion's own historic declarations. Given that, there is no need to point to anyone I know directly, although I have known many through the decades.
MM
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For me the answer is, Salvation by God's grace. As He said.
While we cannot work our way to Salvation. Which then repeals the notion we can choose to be saved and then work to be worthy.
Real work ocurs in those Saved by the grace of God through the work of His Holy Spirit.
It is then that we are led to serve God's will and work, as he leads us in His service.
This is not the same as labor will lead to Salvation.
While we cannot work our way to Salvation. Which then repeals the notion we can choose to be saved and then work to be worthy.
Real work ocurs in those Saved by the grace of God through the work of His Holy Spirit.
It is then that we are led to serve God's will and work, as he leads us in His service.
This is not the same as labor will lead to Salvation.
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As I suspected. This issue is all in your head, living there rent free.
Please open your mind and heart and see that this is a baseless fear of your own making.
Ergophobia can be overcome.
Philippians 2:12–13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your
own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Please open your mind and heart and see that this is a baseless fear of your own making.
Ergophobia can be overcome.
Philippians 2:12–13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your
own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
I agree...completely. But there is another layer in this truth. If intrinsic good fruits come from a spiritually mature believer.........The Fruit inspector better be a mature believer and KNOW what true fruits are.
What we have today is a bunch of fruit inspectors that have no clue of what true fruit is.
What we have today is a bunch of fruit inspectors that have no clue of what true fruit is.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
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Let's highlight another relevant portion of those passages:
Philippians 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
There again, it is not of works on our part but the word of God in and through us.
I also hope you're not trying to skirt the boundary of ad hominem by seemingly trying to insinuate that I am suffering from some mental illenss, such as the fear of work...
MM
Philippians 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
There again, it is not of works on our part but the word of God in and through us.
I also hope you're not trying to skirt the boundary of ad hominem by seemingly trying to insinuate that I am suffering from some mental illenss, such as the fear of work...
MM
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1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
That's the Gospel, and nothing else. Yes, it is a "one & done" contrary to anything else anyone may add to it. The claim that Paul gave only part of the Gospel, Peter gave some, James gave...etc., that is utterly bankrupt, for it assumes those men were guilty of omissions. They spoke precisely what was for those people at that time, with Paul having spoken what it still for us today.
If you think that you can lose your salvation, then you must also claim Holy Spirit has a weak grasp upon all whom He sealed on the basis of faith alone:
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
It can't get any more clearer than that.
So, please discuss your understanding of those who fail to place their faith in the accomplished work of Christ in these last days. If true believers fall into apostacy, what does scripture, once again, say about that?
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
So, any work the Lord does within us is a completed work, sealed by His Holy Spirit, unto...what?
Even if those within the body of Christ deny Him, what will His denial of those believers entail? Most assume loss of salvation, even though the text absolutely does not support that claim. Denial when standing before Him to be judged for our reward, yes, He will deny those as well who denied Him, but that is not a judgement for salvation, but rather reward. Peter denied Christ three times in the evening of His having been taken into custody. What of him? Will we expect to see him burning in Hell for His denials?
This is what's so systemic within churchianity, the teaching of falsehoods that contradict scripture in such glaring disregard for the text and what it says. How many have you ever known who once truly believed in what Christ accomplished, and then denied and walked away from Him? How do you know they were ever saved to begin with? How do you know they will lose their salvation? How do you know where they will stand in their hearts when taking their last breath? All the wild assumptions so many people claim as if they were the ones sitting in the place of God to judge another's eternal salvation...that's just evil; something we should all avoid.
We should minister the joy and peace that we have in Christ by grace through faith. This idea that anyone has the power of Deity to add to his or her salvation, and to somehow maintain it through self effort of works, that's a doctrine of demons, not something found in scripture.
MM
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
That's the Gospel, and nothing else. Yes, it is a "one & done" contrary to anything else anyone may add to it. The claim that Paul gave only part of the Gospel, Peter gave some, James gave...etc., that is utterly bankrupt, for it assumes those men were guilty of omissions. They spoke precisely what was for those people at that time, with Paul having spoken what it still for us today.
If you think that you can lose your salvation, then you must also claim Holy Spirit has a weak grasp upon all whom He sealed on the basis of faith alone:
2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
It can't get any more clearer than that.
So, please discuss your understanding of those who fail to place their faith in the accomplished work of Christ in these last days. If true believers fall into apostacy, what does scripture, once again, say about that?
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
So, any work the Lord does within us is a completed work, sealed by His Holy Spirit, unto...what?
Even if those within the body of Christ deny Him, what will His denial of those believers entail? Most assume loss of salvation, even though the text absolutely does not support that claim. Denial when standing before Him to be judged for our reward, yes, He will deny those as well who denied Him, but that is not a judgement for salvation, but rather reward. Peter denied Christ three times in the evening of His having been taken into custody. What of him? Will we expect to see him burning in Hell for His denials?
This is what's so systemic within churchianity, the teaching of falsehoods that contradict scripture in such glaring disregard for the text and what it says. How many have you ever known who once truly believed in what Christ accomplished, and then denied and walked away from Him? How do you know they were ever saved to begin with? How do you know they will lose their salvation? How do you know where they will stand in their hearts when taking their last breath? All the wild assumptions so many people claim as if they were the ones sitting in the place of God to judge another's eternal salvation...that's just evil; something we should all avoid.
We should minister the joy and peace that we have in Christ by grace through faith. This idea that anyone has the power of Deity to add to his or her salvation, and to somehow maintain it through self effort of works, that's a doctrine of demons, not something found in scripture.
MM
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