Faith is a work.
- Thread starter Beckworth
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
would It be wrong to GOD If you helped someone In distress because you felt It was your duty knowing that somebody might see you not helping that person but In your heart you didn't really want to help them?
John 4:24
King James Version
24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
John 4:24
King James Version
24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Charity, love in action, is greater than faith.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Paul, James, and John say the same thing that without charity a person a person lacks faith, and love is greater than faith, and love must be done in works.
No works of love then no faith, so works has to do with our salvation for if we do not do works of love then faith does not count in our life, for our faith is laboring for the kingdom, and God's ways on earth.
But some people will labor to make money to spend on vacations, and cruises, and their wants, but that is okay, and then say that working for the kingdom of God is not required for salvation.
But if people are laboring for their wants, and enjoying their wants then that is not love, and then faith does not apply in their life, which we know in America they labor for their wants a lot.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Faith works by love, not love works by faith, and love has to be done in works for love to be valid for faith to be valid.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
It appears as if works do matter, and required for salvation, works of love.
Paul said he could have all faith so he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity then he is nothing.
But they appear they do not want to listen to Paul when he speaks according to having the Spirit, which faith alone, and not by works is when we first confess Christ, for that is all we can do for we confess Christ before we receive the Spirit to save us, and when we receive the Spirit then faith without works is dead, and a person is justified by works, and not faith alone applies.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
People that say we cannot abstain from sin, and we sin daily, and sin does not affect our relationship with God, we are to turn away from them, which these people say we are not saved by works.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Charity, love in action, is greater than faith.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Paul, James, and John say the same thing that without charity a person a person lacks faith, and love is greater than faith, and love must be done in works.
No works of love then no faith, so works has to do with our salvation for if we do not do works of love then faith does not count in our life, for our faith is laboring for the kingdom, and God's ways on earth.
But some people will labor to make money to spend on vacations, and cruises, and their wants, but that is okay, and then say that working for the kingdom of God is not required for salvation.
But if people are laboring for their wants, and enjoying their wants then that is not love, and then faith does not apply in their life, which we know in America they labor for their wants a lot.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Faith works by love, not love works by faith, and love has to be done in works for love to be valid for faith to be valid.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
It appears as if works do matter, and required for salvation, works of love.
Paul said he could have all faith so he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity then he is nothing.
But they appear they do not want to listen to Paul when he speaks according to having the Spirit, which faith alone, and not by works is when we first confess Christ, for that is all we can do for we confess Christ before we receive the Spirit to save us, and when we receive the Spirit then faith without works is dead, and a person is justified by works, and not faith alone applies.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
People that say we cannot abstain from sin, and we sin daily, and sin does not affect our relationship with God, we are to turn away from them, which these people say we are not saved by works.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Baptism is not a work of the law (of Moses). So this verse clearly is not talking about baptism. And James 2:22 says faith and works do work together. The whole thought there in James 2 is that faith without works is dead. Verse 24 clearly condemns the doctrine of faith only. No one yet has explained John 6:29 that clearly says faith is a work—the same kind as baptism. They are both works of God. If you can throw away 1 you can throw away the other. Mark 16:16 gives equal importance to faith and baptism. Why not just believe the what the Bible says?
cake is a gift!
-
1
-
1
- Show all
I know I am late to this thread and I am sure several people have already said this or something similar but the whole faith vs works thing while a very interesting debate is simply not that complex. Faith is something that you cannot produce of your own free will at least not the level of faith. When I was first saved I had trouble with faith I wanted to trust God but no matter what I did it just wasnt in me yet. But as we grow closer to God so does our faith and trust in him and this produces not just stronger faith but a deeper bond with him and these two elements are what produce works.
To do works or at least to truly do works the most vital thing is the intimacy we share with him because it is that connection in which our faith grows and soon enough we don't do works because it is simply the Christian thing or because of a sense of duty but because we want to because our hearts natural are guided as if by instinct. Faith in itself is a facinating subject to debate even in all our time since the world was first created it is still a mystery unsolved. Some people have great faith easier than others some struggle greatly with it trying so hard but not able to have the kind of trust and faith others seem to have. After a few years faith seemed to come easily to me but I helped mentor some believers who have been saved for years far mor than me and still struggled greatly with it and then with the whole works and faith issue they felt because they were lacking in faith their works were also hindered.
For many of them they told me it felt like they were going through the motions as if they did all things but felt like it was missing that spark like they did all these works but their hearts were not truly in it. There is some truth to this though for people who do not have someone to help them build their faith or for people whpo misunderstand how works are it is basically like going through the motions. This isnt to stay their works are without value but like I always say the first and most important thing is our bond and love with God, Seek flove first above all things and build that deep and intimate connection with him and everything else will follow.. This was the first lesson father taught me and also the most important and I always tell anyone who I help mentor that very same lesson and for good reason.
To do works or at least to truly do works the most vital thing is the intimacy we share with him because it is that connection in which our faith grows and soon enough we don't do works because it is simply the Christian thing or because of a sense of duty but because we want to because our hearts natural are guided as if by instinct. Faith in itself is a facinating subject to debate even in all our time since the world was first created it is still a mystery unsolved. Some people have great faith easier than others some struggle greatly with it trying so hard but not able to have the kind of trust and faith others seem to have. After a few years faith seemed to come easily to me but I helped mentor some believers who have been saved for years far mor than me and still struggled greatly with it and then with the whole works and faith issue they felt because they were lacking in faith their works were also hindered.
For many of them they told me it felt like they were going through the motions as if they did all things but felt like it was missing that spark like they did all these works but their hearts were not truly in it. There is some truth to this though for people who do not have someone to help them build their faith or for people whpo misunderstand how works are it is basically like going through the motions. This isnt to stay their works are without value but like I always say the first and most important thing is our bond and love with God, Seek flove first above all things and build that deep and intimate connection with him and everything else will follow.. This was the first lesson father taught me and also the most important and I always tell anyone who I help mentor that very same lesson and for good reason.
-
1
- Show all
In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian perform that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? *When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works) argument is bogus.
In Matthew 3:13-15, we read - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. Baptism is a work or righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5)
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone merely says-claims to have faith but they lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was justified shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
I explained John 6:29 to you in post #85, but apparently you just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. Once again, Jesus was not stating that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works, as you teach. Nobody is throwing away anything and baptism simply needs to be put in it's proper place -- subsequent to obtaining salvation through faith. Faith is the ROOT of salvation and good works which "follow" (including water baptism) is the FRUIT. *You error by teaching that BOTH faith AND works are the root of salvation.
If Mark 16:16 gives equal importance to faith and baptism, then why didn't Jesus say that whoever is not baptized will be condemned? hmm.. Also, if water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, then why didn't Jesus mention this in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentioned in these 9 verses? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..). *Why not just believe what the Bible says?
In Matthew 3:13-15, we read - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. Baptism is a work or righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5)
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone merely says-claims to have faith but they lack resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was justified shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
I explained John 6:29 to you in post #85, but apparently you just don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. Once again, Jesus was not stating that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works, as you teach. Nobody is throwing away anything and baptism simply needs to be put in it's proper place -- subsequent to obtaining salvation through faith. Faith is the ROOT of salvation and good works which "follow" (including water baptism) is the FRUIT. *You error by teaching that BOTH faith AND works are the root of salvation.
If Mark 16:16 gives equal importance to faith and baptism, then why didn't Jesus say that whoever is not baptized will be condemned? hmm.. Also, if water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, then why didn't Jesus mention this in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentioned in these 9 verses? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 1 John 5:13 etc..). *Why not just believe what the Bible says?
-
3
- Show all
It seems to me scripture is simple and tells it exactly like it truly is.
God doesn't look to our works to have us earn salvation that way. Christ did the work that pays for sin, we have to use that. Scripture tells us it is only through Christ we are saved, and in the OT before God gave us knowledge of Christ, it is said that salvation is only through blood.
That isn't the whole story of what scripture tells us about works, but scripture speaks a lot about it, with nothing it tells us of works that is opposed to the fact that God doesn't look at our works for salvation. Scripture tells us we are now Christ's own when we go to Him, and we live through Him, not for sinful living in any way but we put on righteousness of Christ. That is what works are for, they are not for salvation but for living with Christ. That is faith.
A baby has faith in his parents, we have faith in our creator.
God doesn't look to our works to have us earn salvation that way. Christ did the work that pays for sin, we have to use that. Scripture tells us it is only through Christ we are saved, and in the OT before God gave us knowledge of Christ, it is said that salvation is only through blood.
That isn't the whole story of what scripture tells us about works, but scripture speaks a lot about it, with nothing it tells us of works that is opposed to the fact that God doesn't look at our works for salvation. Scripture tells us we are now Christ's own when we go to Him, and we live through Him, not for sinful living in any way but we put on righteousness of Christ. That is what works are for, they are not for salvation but for living with Christ. That is faith.
A baby has faith in his parents, we have faith in our creator.
-
1
- Show all
You have probably cut and paste this in several posts, but this to me is a weak refutation of the meaning of Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.
A compound sentence with two subjects, 1) salvation 2) condemnation
Salvation has two requirements: belief and baptism.
condemnation has just one requirement: unbelief.
The requirements for each subject are different and because one subject (condemnation) has just one requirement does not in anyway give the reader a right to remove a requirement from the other subject (salvation) thereby rewriting the verse by changing requirements.
The two requirement for salvation (belief and baptism) are joined by the conjunction 'and' making them (a) inseparable and (b) making both of equal importance and necessity. If one does not have to be baptized to be saved, then one would not have to believe either.
1 and 2 make 3. The "and" ties the 1 to the 2 making them both necessary to have 3. Therefore one cannot remove either the 1 or the 2 for one would no longer have the 3.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
Jesus gives a logical progression of steps where a step cannot be omitted or skipped. Before one to be saved he must be baptized, before one can be baptized he must first believe. Therefore the logical progression of steps makes it impossible for an unbeliever to be baptized. This means an unbeliever is an unbaptized person therefore when Jesus said "he that believeth not" we know this already excludes being baptized so it would be redundant, unnecessary for Christ to say "he that believeth not and is baptized not due to his unbelief shall be condemned.
Here is an analogy
a) He that eateth and digesteth his food shall live;
b) he that eateth not shall die.
Two requirements are necessary to live: 1) eateth AND 2) digesteth. A logical progression for one cannot live if he does not digest and one cannot digest what he has not eaten. So we logical know that the person who (b) "eateth not" has not digested for one cannot if he had not eaten.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.
A compound sentence with two subjects, 1) salvation 2) condemnation
Salvation has two requirements: belief and baptism.
condemnation has just one requirement: unbelief.
The requirements for each subject are different and because one subject (condemnation) has just one requirement does not in anyway give the reader a right to remove a requirement from the other subject (salvation) thereby rewriting the verse by changing requirements.
The two requirement for salvation (belief and baptism) are joined by the conjunction 'and' making them (a) inseparable and (b) making both of equal importance and necessity. If one does not have to be baptized to be saved, then one would not have to believe either.
1 and 2 make 3. The "and" ties the 1 to the 2 making them both necessary to have 3. Therefore one cannot remove either the 1 or the 2 for one would no longer have the 3.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
Jesus gives a logical progression of steps where a step cannot be omitted or skipped. Before one to be saved he must be baptized, before one can be baptized he must first believe. Therefore the logical progression of steps makes it impossible for an unbeliever to be baptized. This means an unbeliever is an unbaptized person therefore when Jesus said "he that believeth not" we know this already excludes being baptized so it would be redundant, unnecessary for Christ to say "he that believeth not and is baptized not due to his unbelief shall be condemned.
Here is an analogy
a) He that eateth and digesteth his food shall live;
b) he that eateth not shall die.
Two requirements are necessary to live: 1) eateth AND 2) digesteth. A logical progression for one cannot live if he does not digest and one cannot digest what he has not eaten. So we logical know that the person who (b) "eateth not" has not digested for one cannot if he had not eaten.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Christians do not base their doctrines on one verse. What is the sum total of Scripture regarding faith in Christ? That is the key issue.
Jesus clarified the gift of eternal life when He made this categorical statement:
Jesus said unto her [Martha], I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25,26)
Do you see any mention of "baptism" above? So why was baptism included in Mk 16:16? Because salvation (baptism with the Holy Spirit) and water baptism were to be very closely tied together (Acts 2:38). And we see this illustrated in Acts 8 when Philip baptized the Ethiopian. Note the exchange carefully: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God... and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Jesus clarified the gift of eternal life when He made this categorical statement:
Jesus said unto her [Martha], I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25,26)
Do you see any mention of "baptism" above? So why was baptism included in Mk 16:16? Because salvation (baptism with the Holy Spirit) and water baptism were to be very closely tied together (Acts 2:38). And we see this illustrated in Acts 8 when Philip baptized the Ethiopian. Note the exchange carefully: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God... and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
-
1
- Show all
You have already quoted Acts 2:38 so that doctrine about water baptism is clearly not just based on Mark 16:16. 2 separate passages is enough for establishing doctrine 2 Corinthians 13:1
It's not weak at all when you don't ignore the second clause and properly harmonize scripture with scripture. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Why don't you explain to us what happened to baptism in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Did Jesus forget to mention it?
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" clearly shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."
Jesus clarifies the first clause with ..but he who does not believe will be condemned.
False. Salvation has one requirement. BELIEF - (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
General cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized does not make baptism a second requirement for salvation. It's not about rewriting the verse by changing requirements, but clarifying the first clause with the second clause and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture to show the one true requirement. Are we to rewrite John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 in order to "add" and additional requirement for salvation (baptism) in order to accommodate your biased view of Mark 16:16? I think not. That would be flawed hermeneutics.
False. Again, Jesus clarifies the first clause with ..but he who does not believe will be condemned.
False. If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well, yet Jesus said ..he who does not believe will be condemned. Jesus NEVER said whoever is not water baptized will be condemned. Continuing to ignore Mark 16:16(b) and John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 is not helping your case at all.
False. Mark 16:16 is composed of two basic statements. 1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2 He who does not believe will be condemned. While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved) it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, - “he who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “he who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in Mark 16:16. *Hermeneutics.
False. There are many people in false religions and cults who have been water baptized but do not truly believe. Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites, SDA's, Oneness Pentecostals etc.. would certainly agree with your biased interpretation of Mark 16:16. You are not in good company. That should raise a red flag!
Bad analogy. A better analogy would be, "he who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well, but he who does not take his medication will remain sick." Of course it logically follows that we wash down medication with water, yet if no water is available and we take it dry (been there, done that) we will still be made well BECAUSE OF THE MEDICATION (and not because of the water). It's the same with baptism. It logically follows that we get baptized after we believe, but if you are on your death bed and cannot get water baptized before your death, you are still saved because you BELIEVE which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b) ..but he who does not believe will be condemned and is also in harmony with ( John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)
***NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."***
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" clearly shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."
Jesus clarifies the first clause with ..but he who does not believe will be condemned.
False. Salvation has one requirement. BELIEF - (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
General cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized does not make baptism a second requirement for salvation. It's not about rewriting the verse by changing requirements, but clarifying the first clause with the second clause and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture to show the one true requirement. Are we to rewrite John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 in order to "add" and additional requirement for salvation (baptism) in order to accommodate your biased view of Mark 16:16? I think not. That would be flawed hermeneutics.
False. Again, Jesus clarifies the first clause with ..but he who does not believe will be condemned.
False. If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well, yet Jesus said ..he who does not believe will be condemned. Jesus NEVER said whoever is not water baptized will be condemned. Continuing to ignore Mark 16:16(b) and John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 is not helping your case at all.
False. Mark 16:16 is composed of two basic statements. 1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2 He who does not believe will be condemned. While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved) it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, - “he who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “he who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in Mark 16:16. *Hermeneutics.
False. There are many people in false religions and cults who have been water baptized but do not truly believe. Roman Catholics, Mormons, Campbellites, SDA's, Oneness Pentecostals etc.. would certainly agree with your biased interpretation of Mark 16:16. You are not in good company. That should raise a red flag!
Bad analogy. A better analogy would be, "he who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well, but he who does not take his medication will remain sick." Of course it logically follows that we wash down medication with water, yet if no water is available and we take it dry (been there, done that) we will still be made well BECAUSE OF THE MEDICATION (and not because of the water). It's the same with baptism. It logically follows that we get baptized after we believe, but if you are on your death bed and cannot get water baptized before your death, you are still saved because you BELIEVE which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b) ..but he who does not believe will be condemned and is also in harmony with ( John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)
***NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."***
-
2
-
2
- Show all
E
1. Mark 16: 16 ia questionable as scripture. And even if it is scripture. Nothing in the passage says it is “WATER” baptism which is being spoken of. And not spirit
2. Acts 2: 38 does nto say be baptized to recieve remission of sin, Peter is telling those who have repented and recieved the gift of the spirit to be baptised BECAUSE of their already granted remission of sin.
There are so many other passages whihc say faith or belief apart from baptism is required to take 2 verses and overrule all of them, You do nto make a doctrine out of 2 verses. Scripture must stand as a whole
2. Acts 2: 38 does nto say be baptized to recieve remission of sin, Peter is telling those who have repented and recieved the gift of the spirit to be baptised BECAUSE of their already granted remission of sin.
There are so many other passages whihc say faith or belief apart from baptism is required to take 2 verses and overrule all of them, You do nto make a doctrine out of 2 verses. Scripture must stand as a whole
I would offer as in all things. . . the exclusive source of faith is the unseen eternal by which we can believe the unseen holy place and therefore can seek after His revealed will. It must be established . This is by what the Bible refers to as "mixing the law of faith" (Hebrew 4:1-4) prescribed in 2 Corinthian 4:18. . . to give us the 20 /20 vision to approach his invisible face to face. A personal relationship as two walking together.
Its the kind of what I will call 20/20 prescription needed to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches .It should be kept by ones side when rightly dividing the Christians source of faith .
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen(water) , but at the things which are not seen(spirit) : for the things which are seen (water) are temporal; but the things which are not seen (spirit) are eternal.
The baptism of the unseen Holy Spirit remains His unseen glory .
Water baptism according to John 3:25 remains a Old testemtment ceremonial law requiring a person from the tribe of Levi .John preparing the way to the new priesthood was used to point to the priesthood of believers the riyal kingdom not of earth the promise to Joel. . a Kingdom of priest holding out the gospel , priests from all the nations of the world men and woman alike. , . When the Son of man Jesus came from the tribe of Judah he is shown ushering in the new manner after that of Melchedik. John having prepared the way .
Water baptism is still used as a ceremonial law as a shadow .It provided no redeeming value. Value in getting wet but as the temporal it will disappear just like a shadow,
Its the kind of what I will call 20/20 prescription needed to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches .It should be kept by ones side when rightly dividing the Christians source of faith .
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen(water) , but at the things which are not seen(spirit) : for the things which are seen (water) are temporal; but the things which are not seen (spirit) are eternal.
The baptism of the unseen Holy Spirit remains His unseen glory .
Water baptism according to John 3:25 remains a Old testemtment ceremonial law requiring a person from the tribe of Levi .John preparing the way to the new priesthood was used to point to the priesthood of believers the riyal kingdom not of earth the promise to Joel. . a Kingdom of priest holding out the gospel , priests from all the nations of the world men and woman alike. , . When the Son of man Jesus came from the tribe of Judah he is shown ushering in the new manner after that of Melchedik. John having prepared the way .
Water baptism is still used as a ceremonial law as a shadow .It provided no redeeming value. Value in getting wet but as the temporal it will disappear just like a shadow,