Evolution

[Phoneman-777]

When did man aquire a soul? Fish stage? Monkey stage? Pretty simple question.

Actually, the Bible doesn't say man "acquired" a soul - Genesis 2:7 KJV specifically says that man "became" a living soul as a consequence of the union of the body and God's breath of life. Much like passing electric current through a light bulb produces light:

Body + Breath = Living Soul​

Bulb + Current = Shining Light​

​

At death, the breath of God returns to Him, the body returns to dust, and the living soul dies aka "ceases to exist" just as the removal of the current from the bulb causes the light to cease to exist. The living soul doesn't continue to exist on another plane of existence any more than the light continues to shine on another plane of existence:

Body - Breath = Soul ceases to exist​

Bulb - Current = Light ceases to exist​

This is why Paul put everything on the Resurrection: he told us to hope in it, to rejoice in it, and to comfort one another with reminders of it and not once did he entertain for us any ideas about the dead already existing joyfully in heaven or burning in hell until then. I can almost here people reading this and yelling: "The Rich Man and Lazarus!" "Absent from body/Present with the Lord!" "...torment ascendeth up forever and ever!" "...where the fire is not quenched!" ...or any other supposed "proof texts".
Bring it on, folks

 

[Jocund]

Have you got a link to it?

It was some lengthier YouTube debate from ~2011. The specific video series is unimportant. It was intellectual junkfood in the grand scheme of things, much like any of Bill Nye's content or any other actor that is allowed to take the stage.

If you want to see the real answer and debate, you can look at the philosophy behind it.

Young earth creationism (YEC) and billion years' evolution are both philosophically valid interpretations. The difference (among other things) exists in the utility of either interpretation. It's hard to explain the differences in the nature of the utilities that either model presents. One of the ways to look at the difference is that an atheistic model is fundamentally physicalism while a theistic model is fundamentally idealism (or dualism). Which comes first? Consciousness or the physical world? The atheistic side is quick to jump to the conclusion that the physical exists first and therefore is not dependent on the existence of a consciousness, while the theistic side is quick to say consciousness exists first and that there exists a prime consciousness. There is no way to separate consciousness from the physical world and therefore as much as our physical modelling of the world suggests that consciousness is an emergent property, it cannot be demonstrated that there is such a thing as reality without consciousness.

Using logic alone, there is no answer which is dominant over the other. But from faith, we see the answer is obvious that God comes first. What many people forget is that Billion years' evolution isn't inherently atheistic. And the moment we look at Billion years' universe (BYU) from a Christian perspective, we see the only difference is that a YEC is looking at the creation story literally and a BYU is looking at the story figuratively.

I don't really understand enough about the politics about this to understand why it is important. Maybe a YEC interpretation conflicts with funding relative to some climate-research related topics? Maybe it conflicts with some funding of paleontologic projects? I don't understand why picking a side with YEC vs. BYU would be inherently important.

 

[SomeBloke]

I worship the Creator, not Creationism. As evolution requires no creator, I figured you worshipped Evolutionism. Although I guess the theory did have a creator, and plenty of high priests - Dawkins, Darwin and the like.

Anyway, when you invent a better eye, then you'll be in a position to critique God. Until then, I'd suggest you don't conflate the evidence of design with the ignorant opinion that you (or someone else) can design better than God.

You don't worship the creator, you worship the lies told to you by the high priests of your religion, Ken Ham, Kent Hovind etc.
Lies that have been discredited time and time again but you still cling to like a drowning man clutching at straws.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You don't worship the creator, you worship the lies told to you by the high priests of your religion, Ken Ham, Kent Hovind etc.
Lies that have been discredited time and time again but you still cling to like a drowning man clutching at straws.

I've been a student of the Creation/Evolution debate for years. I'm completely convinced Macro evolution is a lie, the Big Bang is nothing but a fizzle, the Earth is only around 6,000 years old, the Geological column was laid down during the Flood, the fossil record crushes the evolutionary time table, Adam and Eve were the first humans, etc.

I first believed because the Bible said so - but the science has convinced my why my position is correct, and the more science does science, the more I feel anyone willing to be objective cannot remain an evolutionist for long.

 

[SomeBloke]

I've been a student of the Creation/Evolution debate for years. I'm completely convinced Macro evolution is a lie, the Big Bang is nothing but a fizzle, the Earth is only around 6,000 years old, the Geological column was laid down during the Flood, the fossil record crushes the evolutionary time table, Adam and Eve were the first humans, etc.

I first believed because the Bible said so - but the science has convinced my why my position is correct, and the more science does science, the more I feel anyone willing to be objective cannot remain an evolutionist for long.

Good for you, really, I'm very happy for you.
As I've said before, I have no desire to change your beliefs in any of that. We will cross swords though when you start telling other people that they must believe what you say in order to be a Christian. If you you do that you are promoting a cult and I will contend against you with my dying breath.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Good for you, really, I'm very happy for you.
As I've said before, I have no desire to change your beliefs in any of that. We will cross swords though when you start telling other people that they must believe what you say in order to be a Christian. If you you do that you are promoting a cult and I will contend against you with my dying breath.

I absolutely say to you that you must accept Creationism or you are not a Christian, because a Christian is a follower of Christ Who is the Creator and Who preached creationism exclusively.

Theistic evolutionists are far worse than the atheistic scientific community because instead of simply denying His existence, theistic evolutionists make God a liar and His Word fallible.

 

[SomeBloke]

I absolutely say to you that you must accept Creationism or you are not a Christian, because a Christian is a follower of Christ Who is the Creator and Who preached creationism exclusively.

Theistic evolutionists are far worse than the atheistic scientific community because instead of simply denying His existence, theistic evolutionists make God a liar and His Word fallible.

You are a liar and the truth is not in you.
Nowhere does Jesus tech creationism, nowhere did Paul or the apostles or the church Fathers.
I follow Jesus and Him crucified, that makes me a Christian.
You are a false teacher and a charlatan.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You are a liar and the truth is not in you.
Nowhere does Jesus tech creationism

Whoa whoa, my man, Jesus plainly taught Adam and Eve were "made" and that that this took place "in the beginning", in contrast to evolution's claim that we didn't come along until what is essentially yesterday on the evolutionary timeline. He also affirmed the Scriptures as the Word of God which only allows for a short, approximately 6,000 year age of the Earth.

nowhere did Paul or the apostles or the church Fathers.

2 Peter 3 not only affirms Creationism, but prophesies of people like you who would come along and deny it, as well as use their skepticism to question those who would stand firmly by the Scriptures. Congrats, you're a fulfillment of prophecy.

I follow Jesus and Him crucified, that makes me a Christian.
You are a false teacher and a charlatan.

I'm not sure who you are following, but I'm sure about this: if you're sincere about your denial of Creationism, God winks at your ignorance "but now commandeth every man to repent", including from false scientific theories like evolution.

 

[SomeBloke]

Whoa whoa, my man, Jesus plainly taught Adam and Eve were "made" and that that this took place "in the beginning", in contrast to evolution's claim that we didn't come along until what is essentially yesterday on the evolutionary timeline. He also affirmed the Scriptures as the Word of God which only allows for a short, approximately 6,000 year age of the Earth.
2 Peter 3 not only affirms Creationism, but prophesies of people like you who would come along and deny it, as well as use their skepticism to question those who would stand firmly by the Scriptures. Congrats, you're a fulfillment of prophecy.
I'm not sure who you are following, but I'm sure about this: if you're sincere about your denial of Creationism, God winks at your ignorance "but now commandeth every man to repent", including from false scientific theories like evolution.

I believe every word of Genesis but I don't believe a single word of your interpretation of it because you are an ignoramus who, it seems can't even read, knows nothing about science or the bible beyond what has been taught you by your cult leaders. Carry on in your foolishness and ignorance by all means but to anyone with some education who reads this please know that you don't need to accept what this doofus says, you need to follow Jesus who will lead you to all peace, knowledge and understanding. God bless you all.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I believe every word of Genesis but I don't believe a single word of your interpretation of it because you are an ignoramus

No one can or should accuse Phoneman-777 of being an ignoramus. We have our differences but he knows what he speaks about. Getting back to the HOAX of evolution, it takes guts to tell all the so-called intellectuals and pseudo-scientists that they are full of hot air, and that evolution is PURE BALONEY. If not, kindly invite a chimpanzee to play a Beethoven symphony and see what happens.

 

[SomeBloke]

No one can or should accuse Phoneman-777 of being an ignoramus. We have our differences but he knows what he speaks about. Getting back to the HOAX of evolution, it takes guts to tell all the so-called intellectuals and pseudo-scientists that they are full of hot air, and that evolution is PURE BALONEY. If not, kindly invite a chimpanzee to play a Beethoven symphony and see what happens.

Sorry, but I can only call things as I see them, he's an idiot.
I listen to real scientists, the pseudo-scientists are creationists.
Where does the theory of evolution predict that chimps must be able to play Beethoven? This is just another nonsensical whimsy by your masters and cult leaders who will blindly latch on to anything that they think scientists can't answer.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I believe every word of Genesis but I don't believe a single word of your interpretation of it because you are an ignoramus who, it seems can't even read, knows nothing about science or the bible beyond what has been taught you by your cult leaders. Carry on in your foolishness and ignorance by all means but to anyone with some education who reads this please know that you don't need to accept what this doofus says, you need to follow Jesus who will lead you to all peace, knowledge and understanding. God bless you all.

Friend, would you like to discuss some science? I don't claim to be a scientist, but I can recognize bulldookey pseudo-science masquerading as true science. Which field would you like to discuss? Cosmology, Genetics, Geology, Biology, Microbiology, Egyptology?

 

[SomeBloke]

Friend, would you like to discuss some science? I don't claim to be a scientist, but I can recognize bulldookey pseudo-science masquerading as true science. Which field would you like to discuss? Cosmology, Genetics, Geology, Biology, Microbiology, Egyptology?

Let's start at the top of that list, shall we? What insights have you gleaned from the bible regarding cosmology?

 

[mustaphadrink]

Quite the opposite. There is absolutely no evidence for evolution, since no one has actually found intermediate forms. So evolution is just another atheistic religion.
"The fact is that evolutionists believe in evolution because they want to. It is their desire at all costs to explain the origin of everything without a Creator. Evolutionism is thus intrinsically an atheistic religion." -- Henry Morris.

Nice one Nehemiah. In my studies over the years, I have worked out that most people who do not believe in God or believe in the god of evolution do so not because they don't believe that God exists. They do so because they don't want God to exist because if he does they are up the creek without a paddle.

And as we are spiritual beings they have to believe in something so they replace God with evolution.

 

[Jocund]

I have worked out that most people who [...] believe in the god of evolution do so not because [...] they don't want God to exist because if he does they are up the creek without a paddle.

And as we are spiritual beings they have to believe in something so they replace God with evolution.

God of the Bible and evolution theory are not mutually exclusive.

There is no need to draw the line in the sand between Christians that are invested in Young Earth Creationism vs God-guided Evolution. Why would that aspect of one's belief ever be fundamental to the truths of Christianity? To love God and love our neighbours as ourselves.

If one interprets the accounts of creation as figurative or literal, does that change the message of Christ? Not at all.

 

[JAPOV]

God of the Bible and evolution theory are not mutually exclusive.

There is no need to draw the line in the sand between Christians that are invested in Young Earth Creationism vs God-guided Evolution. Why would that aspect of one's belief ever be fundamental to the truths of Christianity? To love God and love our neighbours as ourselves.

If one interprets the accounts of creation as figurative or literal, does that change the message of Christ? Not at all.

Some would argue that if any part of God's word is false, then it's ALL false...

However, no man has mastered God's Word

 

[Jocund]

Some would argue that if any part of God's word is false, then it's ALL false...

However, no man has mastered God's Word

"I can't see the forest through the trees"

 

[Nehemiah6]

If one interprets the accounts of creation as figurative or literal, does that change the message of Christ? Not at all.

Actually the creation account impacts directly on the Gospel. The Bible says that all land creatures and mankind were created on the same day -- the 6th day of creation -- and that mankind was created in the image of God. Evolutionary theory reject that altogether. Furthermore the Fall occurred shortly after creation, but the millions of years postulated by evolution to move from amoeba to man contradicts that also.

 

[soberxp]

No matter how the theory of evolution explains, human beings cannot create life by themselves. Even if DNA technology is used, it is only a combination of existing stocks

 

[Dino246]

If one interprets the accounts of creation as figurative or literal, does that change the message of Christ? Not at all.

I disagree; if you remove creation, you undermine God’s authority over creation and you are left with no sound explanation for the origin of anything.