Ever wonder Why?….

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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…why Jesus Christ had to die… why there was no other way?
Before God could offer salvation to the world the penalty for the sins of the whole world ("the SIN of the world") needed to be paid. Only Christ -- the Lamb of God -- could pay that penalty in full, and only Christ could then rise again from the dead. Only Christ could "take away" the sin of the world.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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God never planned anything, He already KNEW everything!!!
That is not strictly true. Even though God knows all things , God did in fact plan -- predetermine -- the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:23). So not only was God's foreknowledge involved, but there was a "determinate counsel" (a plan of salvation) within the Godhead, and God predetermined (foreordained) the crucifixion of Christ from BEFORE the foundation of the world: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:19,20)
 

EricH

New member
Apr 28, 2023
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3
Even though God knows all things , God did in fact plan -- predetermine -- the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
I see this as a kind of contingency plan made by God in advance. Had Adam and Eve loved and obeyed God, there would be no need for the sacrifice of our Lord.

I believe it was God’s hope, that mankind could love and obey freely and willingly. God knew that if Adam and Eve could not be trusted, in what seems to be a fairly trivial disobedience, ( eating from the tree of knowledge) this would lead to the mayhem we see today.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,191
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I see this as a kind of contingency plan made by God in advance. Had Adam and
Eve loved and obeyed God, there would be no need for the sacrifice of our Lord.

I believe it was God’s hope, that mankind could love and obey freely and willingly. God knew
that if Adam and Eve could not be trusted, in what seems to be a fairly trivial disobedience,
( eating from the tree of knowledge) this would lead to the mayhem we see today.
God knew that Adam and Eve were not going to obey. Jesus was not Plan "B."

Please have a read through
this (<= link). It is a bit long but well worth the edification .:)
 

EricH

New member
Apr 28, 2023
26
17
3
God knew that Adam and Eve were not going to obey. Jesus was not Plan "B."
Thanks for the link.
When it comes to things divine, our human words and understanding seem inadequate. I Absolutely agree with you, Jesus was not plan B. His death and resurrection were planned before creation began. If God was going to create us in the greatest good way possible, to love us as he loves himself, it comes with the risk, that we will not love God in the same way. Adam and Eve needed freedom to Love and obey God willingly.

Trying to understand the meaning and purpose of plan A, is a challenge. Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven. Whether we obeyed or disobeyed God, it was always going to end in the way God intended. We struggle with the bit in the middle – our life on Earth.
 

Karlon

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2023
2,709
1,237
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That is not strictly true. Even though God knows all things , God did in fact plan -- predetermine -- the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:23). So not only was God's foreknowledge involved, but there was a "determinate counsel" (a plan of salvation) within the Godhead, and God predetermined (foreordained) the crucifixion of Christ from BEFORE the foundation of the world: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:19,20)
i'm going to look into that. up until now, i haven't seen anything that says God had to "think" of this or that. but as i said, i'm going to check in to it. thanks nehemiah6.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
i'm going to look into that. up until now, i haven't seen anything that says God had to "think" of this or that. but as i said, i'm going to check in to it. thanks nehemiah6.
It is not about "God had to think" but about "God made a plan". Do you seriously think that God did not plan out the universe in fine detail before He brought it into existence? There is MATHEMATICAL PRECISION in every part of the universe.
 

Clayman

Active member
May 30, 2021
363
100
43
God created Evil for our GOOD.
I think I follow what your trying to say in the thread, but God is adamant that he did not create evil or sin, and I think we should not word it like that just because context is difficult, I think what your meaning is He did allow sin and evil to be in the world? which I would agree with.

I think when you follow the logic through, God knew we were going to be sinners, He knew Adam was going to sin, He could have made things so that Adam was not going to sin, but did not, and then as soon as I point out God must have wanted sin in the world people go into conniptions, as if I have slandered God.

Witnessing to people a common theme I run into is they dont like the God of the bible, a God who allows so much pain and death to happen to people, a God who allows children to starve and die, and violence to overtake good people, especially when loved ones are taken from them, when hearing these sentiments I actually agree with them that God does indeed allow it to happen, and apparently it surprises them as others just argue the point, I point out I can understand their animosity towards me as Im a representative of God whom they are angry with, which alot of the time gets me a foot in the door to explain how I see things and how on the other side of the coin God does also hate death and sin, which then leads on to the sharing of the gospel sometimes.

All I wanted to point out is even non Christians see God as sovereign and in charge of everything including allowing sin and death in the world even if its subluminal, yet some Christians seem to me go into denial mode, as if their loving God would not allow such atrocities to happen and come up with lots of other reasons like it must be because Satan and his cohorts are causing it all etc etc Of course if they could get things to happen under Gods nose that He did not allow then they are elevating Satan and lessening God.

He is the Potter we are the clay we have to accept His ways as righteous for even if we dont comprehend why He does what He does we know they are.

Anyway I see the tree of knowledge as a real tree but figurative in the fact that it was the disobedience that opened Adams and Eves eyes, in other words it could have been a stone of knowledge and God could have commanded Adam not to pick the stone up! Adam who had no sin nature could not disobey Gods command unless there is a countermand from another source (which God allows planned to happen) and once Adam had a choice and disobeyed by picking up the stone, now the realisation of Doing what God says or not is now an innate choice, they now know they can do good or evil. Of course the tree and fruit have more figurative meaning throughout the bible so its the best representation and Im just using a stone trying to explain how I see it.

Anyway interesting topic, and interesting questions for I seem to enjoy hearing others thoughts about them
 
N

Niki7

Guest
Oh Niki, you seem young to me.... the longer we live, we face more and more evil in our life and with each encounter.... a choice. I've learned to NOT TO FEAR but to just simply make the right choice.... and see God behind it all.... He's teaching me to discern and know what is evil and what is good and to choose the good.

Much like Joseph in the dungeon and later facing his brothers... and telling them, "you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."
God is not behind sin or temptation. Whatever age you have arrived at has not been sufficient for you to grasp that and a few other things you believe that are extra biblical.

God did not create evil.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
No, I said, " God created Evil for OUR GOOD." I NEVER said Evil was good.
Oh but you did. Here are some of the things you have said regarding evil.

"Lafftur, post: 5099536, member: 254930"]The Truth is that God DID create evil and it is GOOD that He did

"Lafftur, post: 5100067, member: 254930"]It was GOOD that God created evil because it gave us a CHOICE.

"Lafftur, post: 5100067, member: 254930"]It was GOOD that God created evil because it gave us a CHOICE.

"Lafftur, post: 5100113, member: 254930"]God created evil for OUR GOOD

"Lafftur, post: 5100097, member: 254930"]God created Evil for our GOOD.

You state that everything God made was good (which is biblical) but then you also declare over and over that God created evil.

That, is YOU saying that evil is good because God created it.


"Lafftur, post: 5099536, member: 254930"]Everything God made is good and has been made for His Plan and Purposes.

I don't think you understand the repercussions of saying God created evil.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
3,636
113
For sure, do not argue with God. However, God's revealed written Word nowhere says the Tree of the
knowledge of good and evil was in itself evil. Adam and Eve already knew good. They knew God.
They knew His creation, which God had proclaimed as being good, and very good. What Scripture
does say is that sin entered the world through the disobedience of one man. That man was Adam.


The evil they came to know was in disobeying God. Man is the author of evil according to Scripture.

Man's will in opposition to God is evil, and sinful.

For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.
It’s interesting that Satan had to deceive Eve… she would have to believe that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was good… otherwise Eve would not have eaten….

Talk about woe to them that call evil… good…

That Tree was evil. That Tree was the Tree of Death. The only thing good about it was that it “looked” good.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
3,636
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have a lovely day sweetheart 🙂
Thank you @Fundaamental

The last time I saw my Dad was on Father’s Day last year… he died 4 weeks later in July 2022.

I went yesterday to visit his grave… I love him, I miss him and I look forward to seeing him again!

God is good! :love:(y)
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
3,636
113
That is not strictly true. Even though God knows all things , God did in fact plan -- predetermine -- the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:23). So not only was God's foreknowledge involved, but there was a "determinate counsel" (a plan of salvation) within the Godhead, and God predetermined (foreordained) the crucifixion of Christ from BEFORE the foundation of the world: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:19,20)
Like Joseph, Jesus would say to His brethren… “what you did to Me, you meant it for evil but, God meant it for good.”
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,191
30,325
113
It’s interesting that Satan had to deceive Eve… she would have to believe that the
Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was good… otherwise Eve would not have eaten….
Talk about woe to them that call evil… good…


That Tree was evil. That Tree was the Tree of Death.
The only thing good about it was that it “looked” good.
Scripture does not say what you do. In fact, Scripture says God saw all He had created,
and He proclaimed it good as He was in the process of creation, and then finally very
good before resting from His work.
Genesis 3:6 identifies more about it than "it looked
good."
When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes,
and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also
gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. 1 John 2:16
clarifies this
some more:
For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes,
and the pride of life—is not from the Father but from the world.
And as I said before,
perhaps only in part in this thread but many times in others: they were of the natural world,
which is at war with the spiritual, and as much in need of a spiritual rebirth as we are.
Pretty much everyone prior to this rebirth sees their way as being better than God's way.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
It’s interesting that Satan had to deceive Eve… she would have to believe that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was good… otherwise Eve would not have eaten….

Talk about woe to them that call evil… good…

That Tree was evil. That Tree was the Tree of Death. The only thing good about it was that it “looked” good.

Where did God say everything I have created is good, except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That thing is evil. Nowhere. That is simply not in the Bible. You seem to be taking more and more liberty with what scripture actually states. That, is opening the door for even more error and wrong teaching.

So it seems you are saying woe to God. You sure are confused.

I would not normally continue in a thread where the op was so dead set on being right the more they got things wrong, but in this case I persist because the belief that God created evil is egregious to the point it can alter a person's perception and understanding of their Creator.

We have a small taste of that right here in this post by the op who is now stating that the tree God created was evil when the Bible states EVERYTHING God created He called good.

This brings us back to the fact that saying God created evil is calling evil good. Which a blind person can understand to be a lie that may cause people to respond 'then sin is not really my fault. God caused it.'

Does anyone else see the progression in error here? It is becoming more noticeable IMO.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
3,636
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God is not behind sin or temptation. Whatever age you have arrived at has not been sufficient for you to grasp that and a few other things you believe that are extra biblical.

God did not create evil.
God DID create evil for our good. He had to give us a choice.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
3,636
113
Oh but you did. Here are some of the things you have said regarding evil.

"Lafftur, post: 5099536, member: 254930"]The Truth is that God DID create evil and it is GOOD that He did

"Lafftur, post: 5100067, member: 254930"]It was GOOD that God created evil because it gave us a CHOICE.

"Lafftur, post: 5100067, member: 254930"]It was GOOD that God created evil because it gave us a CHOICE.

"Lafftur, post: 5100113, member: 254930"]God created evil for OUR GOOD

"Lafftur, post: 5100097, member: 254930"]God created Evil for our GOOD.

You state that everything God made was good (which is biblical) but then you also declare over and over that God created evil.

That, is YOU saying that evil is good because God created it.

"Lafftur, post: 5099536, member: 254930"]Everything God made is good and has been made for His Plan and Purposes.

I don't think you understand the repercussions of saying God created evil.
Nope, I NEVER said evil is good.

I said it is good that God created evil so that He can give us a choice…. Good or Evil… Life or Death… Light or Darkness…
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,439
3,687
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"Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone." James 1:13
 
N

Niki7

Guest
Nope, I NEVER said evil is good.

I said it is good that God created evil so that He can give us a choice…. Good or Evil… Life or Death… Light or Darkness…
I quoted what you posted. I don't think at this point, that you are actually participating in a way that induces actual thought on your part.

You are all over the place and you can deny what you said, but anyone can read what you said. This idea of yours that God created evil does not come from the Holy Spirit.

Evil came through listening to the devil, the father of all lies, and disobeying God. You on the other hand, believe that God is responsible for evil and therefor responsible for sin.

You just do not seem able to think things through or perhaps you just prefer your own personal interpretations. When someone has concluded that their error is correct over and over and over as you have, in spite of biblical evidence to the contrary, I think we should let them enjoy the fruit of those grave errors.

I am wondering how much would change in your world if you admitted your error. Perhaps you would have to change other beliefs as well. God knows. You seem very flippant in your attitude towards believing something that changes the character of God.

You attribute evil to God and that is not excusable and needs to be addressed.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
3,636
113
Scripture does not say what you do. In fact, Scripture says God saw all He had created,
and He proclaimed it good as He was in the process of creation, and then finally very
good before resting from His work.
Genesis 3:6 identifies more about it than "it looked
good."
When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes,
and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also
gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it. 1 John 2:16
clarifies this
some more:
For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes,
and the pride of life—is not from the Father but from the world.
And as I said before,
perhaps only in part in this thread but many times in others: they were of the natural world,
which is at war with the spiritual, and as much in need of a spiritual rebirth as we are.
Pretty much everyone prior to this rebirth sees their way as being better than God's way.

Eve was deceived… she believed evil was good.