I don't want to be insulting but our person standard does not mean Gods making hell for eternal torment is more merciful then HIM. What we think personally and What Jesus said are not the same thing. We do not change the context of hell just because we think it is more merciful. Human reasoning is not Gods word.
Eternal torment VS Annihilation
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The problem I've seen (with every article-writer whom I've seen writing on this subject of "annihilation" [etc]), they talk all about the phrase "to/unto the age [singular]" (as you show, above), but they LEAVE OFF ENTIRELY any hint whatsoever of the biblical phrase "unto the ages plural] of the ages [plural]" (always written together in this way, in the Grk)...
(which does indeed mean "forever"/"eternity"/eternally/etc" as I showed in my post #114 (and mentioned in my previous post #22).
Why they do this is beyond me. But I detect this flaw every time I see an article written on this subject, so remain unconvinced of the points they are attempting to sway one toward.
(which does indeed mean "forever"/"eternity"/eternally/etc" as I showed in my post #114 (and mentioned in my previous post #22).
Why they do this is beyond me. But I detect this flaw every time I see an article written on this subject, so remain unconvinced of the points they are attempting to sway one toward.
Good day Magenta,
The term "sleep" used in those scriptures are referring to the body, not the spirit. For we have other scriptures which show the spirit as being conscious and aware after the death of the body. The rich man and Lazarus is a perfect example of this, which is why many who believe in soul sleep claim it as being a parable. We also have the souls under the altar in heaven at the opening of the 5th seal who are conscious and aware.
For the believer, at the time of death the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Cor.5:6, Phil.1:23)
We have the daughter of the Synagogue leader who had died "sleeping" and when Jesus said "little girl get up" the scripture states that her spirit returned to her body, meaning that it was somewhere else.
"But Jesus took her by the hand and called out, “Child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she got up.
"While they were stoning him, Stephen appealed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
"Suddenly two men, Moses and Elijah, began talking with Jesus. They appeared in glory and spoke about His departure, which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem."
If soul sleep was true, how is it that Moses and Elijah could appear and speak with Jesus? Shouldn't they be sleeping?
Sleep only refers to the body.
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Hello TheDivineWatermark and Magenta,
If I might add to what you've already said, the meaning of the Greek word aion/aionios translated "ages of the ages" is dependent upon the context. For example:
Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay!
Since the scripture is clear that He who lives forever and ever is referring to God, then the meaning of the word aion here translated as "forever and ever" in this context would be defined as having no beginning and no ending (eternal) and not just representing a cycle of time or an age. So it is the context which determines its meaning.
If I might add to what you've already said, the meaning of the Greek word aion/aionios translated "ages of the ages" is dependent upon the context. For example:
Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay!
Since the scripture is clear that He who lives forever and ever is referring to God, then the meaning of the word aion here translated as "forever and ever" in this context would be defined as having no beginning and no ending (eternal) and not just representing a cycle of time or an age. So it is the context which determines its meaning.
I read Mark 9:42-48 and see a) the fire never goes out however this does not say anything about people being in it forever, b) fire burns things up into ash, c) worms eat corpses not those living
Scripture elsewhere could support annihilation, all words in the bible are of God.
Again, I’m not certain on one or another.
Scripture elsewhere could support annihilation, all words in the bible are of God.
Again, I’m not certain on one or another.
You know, kinda like how in the words of Luke 16:19-31 showing that there still exists "time" for his brothers to "repent," this is not the case regarding the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in the aforementioned passage, and indeed this one showing to be taking place before even the FIRST of these TWO "PUNISH" words in this Isa passage.
Also, I would submit that where the word "destroyed" is used, that it is being used in a similar way as the following passages:
Genesis 6:7 -
And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Genesis 7:4 -
For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis 7:23 -
And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Deuteronomy 6:15 -
(For the Lord thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
1 Kings 13:34 -
And this thing became sin unto the house of Jeroboam, even to cut it off, and to destroy it from off the face of the earth.
Amos 9:8 -
Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
This would apply to the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isaiah 24:21-22[23] (parallel Rev19:19,21,16:14-16/20:5 at the time of His Second Coming to the earth; or any time before this; or to any who die DURING the MK age [which will be rare]), but NOT to the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words (applying to the GWTj, the final carrying out of the sentence... as all of "the dead" have already previously been "destroyed off the face of the earth," that is, they have already previously physically died [and not permitted to enjoy the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age]... I posted about this in my post #22 I think)
I listed all of the verses using this phrase in my Post #114. I'm guessing no one looked up those verses?? (I even supplied the parts of the verses of whom they referred / the Subject of).
None (of this specific phrase, "the AGES of the AGES"), that I can see, refer to a limited time period that ends (but I agree, we should examine CONTEXT).
So, yeah, I made that very point. Every article-writer (on "annihilation") completely neglects that specific phrase.
None (of this specific phrase, "the AGES of the AGES"), that I can see, refer to a limited time period that ends (but I agree, we should examine CONTEXT).
So, yeah, I made that very point. Every article-writer (on "annihilation") completely neglects that specific phrase.
I forgot to add one other thought to this (because in the past some have misunderstood a point within this thought): the first refers to physical death, and that once a person dies who is not "saved," there is indeed no hope for them, they do go on to the second of the two "punish" words, the final carrying out of the sentence at the GWTj (pertaining to "the dead," aka "the unsaved dead [of all times]"). No "reforming" (or purgatory) or anything like that... just to be clear.
I read Mark 9:42-48 and see a) the fire never goes out however this does not say anything about people being in it forever, b) fire burns things up into ash, c) worms eat corpses not those living
Scripture elsewhere could support annihilation, all words in the bible are of God.
Again, I’m not certain on one or another.
Scripture elsewhere could support annihilation, all words in the bible are of God.
Again, I’m not certain on one or another.
The words "everlasting fire" or "where the fire is never quenched" is referring to on-going torment of those in it. Otherwise, if people were burned up as soon as they were thrown in, then there would be no purpose to have everlasting fire. Once the last person was thrown in and burned up, God could just turn off the fire and get rid of it. So, the reference to everlasting fire is referring to those who will be enduring it.
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Below is an example of the word "aion" used to represent and age:
"And a second time they called out: “Hallelujah! Her smoke ascends forever and ever.”
The "her" in the verse above, is referring to the destruction of Babylon the Great. Since we know that Babylon the Great is that city that will be destroyed on this present earth during the last part of the tribulation and that this earth will pass away after the millennium, then we know that her smoke ascending up forever and ever, would be until this earth passes away. So here in this context, the word aion represents a cycle of time or an age.
Just pointing out the different uses of the word.
"And a second time they called out: “Hallelujah! Her smoke ascends forever and ever.”
The "her" in the verse above, is referring to the destruction of Babylon the Great. Since we know that Babylon the Great is that city that will be destroyed on this present earth during the last part of the tribulation and that this earth will pass away after the millennium, then we know that her smoke ascending up forever and ever, would be until this earth passes away. So here in this context, the word aion represents a cycle of time or an age.
Just pointing out the different uses of the word.
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Hell is described as a living work of suffering where one cries out to another not seen in faith as a living hope and the person is strengthened to finish the work. Comforting ones anxieties .During that work there is no rest or comfort .
It can be seen in the parable with Jonas and the Whale or the Son of man, Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane .
The last of the parables God used as a sign and wonder when the spiritual understanding is compared to the other. The purpose for the two parables .Comparing the spiritual understanding with the spiritual. . . . faith to faith. Not the literal what the eyes see with the same literal understanding by sight.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.1 Corinthians 2:13
Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
As unto death not after a dead sacrifice, an abomination .
Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV)Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
The witness of the Spirit or the spiritual comparison of suffering unto death (not dead) as living hell in Mathew.
Matthew 26:38 37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Basically , Jesus saying wake up watch with me I need you support. .The father put them to sleep. It is a work of the faith or labor of their combined love insepereatable both that the peace of God is attributed to. Not one without the other.
The disciple were not allowed share the glory with Jesus later to represent the living suffering of His Holy Spirit ….sweat was used as if drop of blood was used in that parable to indicate the pouring out of His Spirit as promised in Joel of corrupted flesh of the Son of man Jesus. .
Sweat as if it was drops of blood... a metaphor
Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling . . . . a shadow of what it is .The pouring out of the unseen Spirit. The eternal not after the temporal
Again unto death as a living suffering, not dead when no man can work without the spirit essence of life.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
It can be seen in the parable with Jonas and the Whale or the Son of man, Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane .
The last of the parables God used as a sign and wonder when the spiritual understanding is compared to the other. The purpose for the two parables .Comparing the spiritual understanding with the spiritual. . . . faith to faith. Not the literal what the eyes see with the same literal understanding by sight.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.1 Corinthians 2:13
Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
As unto death not after a dead sacrifice, an abomination .
Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV)Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
The witness of the Spirit or the spiritual comparison of suffering unto death (not dead) as living hell in Mathew.
Matthew 26:38 37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Basically , Jesus saying wake up watch with me I need you support. .The father put them to sleep. It is a work of the faith or labor of their combined love insepereatable both that the peace of God is attributed to. Not one without the other.
The disciple were not allowed share the glory with Jesus later to represent the living suffering of His Holy Spirit ….sweat was used as if drop of blood was used in that parable to indicate the pouring out of His Spirit as promised in Joel of corrupted flesh of the Son of man Jesus. .
Sweat as if it was drops of blood... a metaphor
Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling . . . . a shadow of what it is .The pouring out of the unseen Spirit. The eternal not after the temporal
Again unto death as a living suffering, not dead when no man can work without the spirit essence of life.
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26
I guess I look at THIS passage:
2 For His judgments are true and righteous,
because He has judged the great prostitute,
who had corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality,
and He has avenged the blood of His servants,
out of [/at] her hand.”
3 And a second time they said:
“Hallelujah!
And her smoke goes up to the ages of the ages.”
...in the same way I view THIS passage [not saying they are identical entities, mind you... just saying, in a similar way as I view this one]:
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing! 38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, you shall not see Me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.’c”
...IOW, there were actual people represented by [/behind the entity called] "Jerusalem" (acting in this capacity), so it seems to me that their judgment is ITS judgment (or vice versa?). Does that make sense? So I'm thinking that the "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" in Rev19:3 is simply reflective of the persons who make up that city (in a similar way as the other passage, but there had only spoken of "UNTIL"). Its ['her'] smoke (which "rose up unto the ages of the ages") is talking about the "at her hand" that the blood of His servants suffered by, i.e. "the great whore" (at the back of which, seems to me, to represent persons acting in this capacity [with this outcome being "unto the ages of the ages" instead, i.e. forever]).
Make sense? ( )
2 For His judgments are true and righteous,
because He has judged the great prostitute,
who had corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality,
and He has avenged the blood of His servants,
out of [/at] her hand.”
3 And a second time they said:
“Hallelujah!
And her smoke goes up to the ages of the ages.”
...in the same way I view THIS passage [not saying they are identical entities, mind you... just saying, in a similar way as I view this one]:
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing! 38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, you shall not see Me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.’c”
...IOW, there were actual people represented by [/behind the entity called] "Jerusalem" (acting in this capacity), so it seems to me that their judgment is ITS judgment (or vice versa?). Does that make sense? So I'm thinking that the "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" in Rev19:3 is simply reflective of the persons who make up that city (in a similar way as the other passage, but there had only spoken of "UNTIL"). Its ['her'] smoke (which "rose up unto the ages of the ages") is talking about the "at her hand" that the blood of His servants suffered by, i.e. "the great whore" (at the back of which, seems to me, to represent persons acting in this capacity [with this outcome being "unto the ages of the ages" instead, i.e. forever]).
Make sense? (
)
I could write on the four or is it five? Ages, but most know nothing about this. Some of the basic doctrines of Christianity today — false doctrines — are based on a misconception, misunderstanding, or mistranslations of the Hebrew and the Greek on this very subject. The doctrine of the ages has been, and is, vastly misunderstood by many people.
An age means a time period, usually very long, but it does not have to be long. It depends on circumstances. An age has a beginning, it has a middle part, and it has an end. That is the most important thing. It has an end. If it has an end, it must have also a beginning. It is not something that you can equate with “eternity,” or even the word “forever.” The word “forever” has no end, it means it goes on and on and on, ad infinitum.
The ages of the Bible have beginnings, a middle portion between the beginning and the end, and they always have an end. This is why it is so important for us to realize this: so many words in the Bible are mistranslated by such words as “eternal,” as “forever,” or “ever and ever” when in actual fact the original writers did not intend that type of meaning at all.
An age means a time period, usually very long, but it does not have to be long. It depends on circumstances. An age has a beginning, it has a middle part, and it has an end. That is the most important thing. It has an end. If it has an end, it must have also a beginning. It is not something that you can equate with “eternity,” or even the word “forever.” The word “forever” has no end, it means it goes on and on and on, ad infinitum.
The ages of the Bible have beginnings, a middle portion between the beginning and the end, and they always have an end. This is why it is so important for us to realize this: so many words in the Bible are mistranslated by such words as “eternal,” as “forever,” or “ever and ever” when in actual fact the original writers did not intend that type of meaning at all.
I guess I look at THIS passage:
2 For His judgments are true and righteous,
because He has judged the great prostitute,
who had corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality,
and He has avenged the blood of His servants,
out of [/at] her hand.”
3 And a second time they said:
“Hallelujah!
And her smoke goes up to the ages of the ages.”
...in the same way I view THIS passage [not saying they are identical entities, mind you... just saying, in a similar way as I view this one]:
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing! 38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, you shall not see Me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.’c”
...IOW, there were actual people represented by [/behind the entity called] "Jerusalem" (acting in this capacity), so it seems to me that their judgment is ITS judgment (or vice versa?). Does that make sense? So I'm thinking that the "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" in Rev19:3 is simply reflective of the persons who make up that city (in a similar way as the other passage, but there had only spoken of "UNTIL"). Its ['her'] smoke (which "rose up unto the ages of the ages") is talking about the "at her hand" that the blood of His servants suffered by, i.e. "the great whore" (at the back of which, seems to me, to represent persons acting in this capacity [with this outcome being "unto the ages of the ages" instead, i.e. forever]).
Make sense? ( )
2 For His judgments are true and righteous,
because He has judged the great prostitute,
who had corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality,
and He has avenged the blood of His servants,
out of [/at] her hand.”
3 And a second time they said:
“Hallelujah!
And her smoke goes up to the ages of the ages.”
...in the same way I view THIS passage [not saying they are identical entities, mind you... just saying, in a similar way as I view this one]:
37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing! 38 Behold, your house is left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, you shall not see Me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the One coming in the name of the Lord.’c”
...IOW, there were actual people represented by [/behind the entity called] "Jerusalem" (acting in this capacity), so it seems to me that their judgment is ITS judgment (or vice versa?). Does that make sense? So I'm thinking that the "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" in Rev19:3 is simply reflective of the persons who make up that city (in a similar way as the other passage, but there had only spoken of "UNTIL"). Its ['her'] smoke (which "rose up unto the ages of the ages") is talking about the "at her hand" that the blood of His servants suffered by, i.e. "the great whore" (at the back of which, seems to me, to represent persons acting in this capacity [with this outcome being "unto the ages of the ages" instead, i.e. forever]).
Make sense? (
)
This is incorrect Magenta! The word aion or aionios can mean a cycle of time, an age or having no beginning or ending. It is the context that will bear out the meaning. I gave this example regarding the Greek word aion as being defined as having no beginning or end and so here it is again:
"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. 6And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay! "
In the scripture above, the word "aion and aion" translated as "forever and ever" is referring to God's existence. The angel raises his right hand and swears by Him (God) who lives aion and aion (forever and ever). Now, does God live for only an age or a cycle of time, or is the word here in this context referring to God who has no beginning or ending? Therefore, the word "aion and aion," i.e. forever and ever must be defined as eternal here in this context.
"Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. 6And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay! "
In the scripture above, the word "aion and aion" translated as "forever and ever" is referring to God's existence. The angel raises his right hand and swears by Him (God) who lives aion and aion (forever and ever). Now, does God live for only an age or a cycle of time, or is the word here in this context referring to God who has no beginning or ending? Therefore, the word "aion and aion," i.e. forever and ever must be defined as eternal here in this context.
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That's the thing. I am NOT referring to "age [singular]" (of which there are multiples, and which are always connected with earth-time/-history). I am talking specifically (and only) about the biblical phrase "[unto] the ages [PLURAL] of the ages [PLURAL]" which phrase [written in this way, together] is only ever (as far as I can see) used in the sense of "foreverness" (as we understand the concept). NOT the "age [singular]" (in its various combos) that is connected with earth-time/-history (even when a passage is referring to "more than one" of those ["ages [plural]"... but NOT written "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"... see the distinction?]).
It is "[unto] the AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" that I am referring to, and listed [21 of] in my post #114.
(as we understand the concept). NOT the "age [singular]" (in its various combos) that is connected with earth-time/-history (even when a passage is referring to "more than one" of those ["ages [plural]"... but NOT written "the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"... see the distinction?]).It is "[unto] the AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" that I am referring to, and listed [21 of] in my post #114.
I hear what you're saying but why would God need to turn off the fire if they burn up? Why can't he leave it burning?
I'm just trying to see the other side because I have seen the early church thought differently (compared to the reform in the 1500s).
Found this interesting too:
I'm just trying to see the other side because I have seen the early church thought differently (compared to the reform in the 1500s).
Found this interesting too:
"John Wenham has classified the New Testament texts on the fate of the lost (source here)
- 10 texts (4%) "Gehenna"
- 26 (10%) to "burning up"
- 59 (22%) to "destruction, perdition, utter loss or ruin"
- 20 (8%) to "separation from God"
- 25 (10%) to "death in its finality" or "the second death"
- 108 (41%) to "unforgiven sin", where the precise consequence is not stated
- 15 (6%) to "anguish"
Wenham claims that just a single verse (Revelation 14:11) sounds like eternal torment. This is out of a total of 264 references."
The Bible does not instruct us to compartmentalize the wrath of God revealed from heaven into different categories . Some lesser degree serve others or greater for another. .Like the Catholic . Limbo one degree and purgatory another .The wrath reveals the eternal plan in respect to the wage of sin .One wage eternal wrath under the sun . A corrupted creation is being revealed as dead as in dying leading to the last day . It cannot decrease. It can only die as the end of the matter dying from the very beginning.
Try the signified language spoken of in Revelation chapter 1, verse 1. . . it sets the standard for the whole book. .
Try the signified language spoken of in Revelation chapter 1, verse 1. . . it sets the standard for the whole book. .
