End time signs in Amillennialism?

[Journeyman]

Ok but you havent explained Jesus avenging the saints that were matryed or when the gentiles have all come in. Also that corinthians passage youve quoted seems a bit out of context with what youve outlined.
Look at 1 corinthinans 15:23-25

It does say the order. Then comes the end And that Christ delivers up the kingdom when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign till he hath out all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

You seem to have conflated this to mean christs kingdom has already been delivered up. But scripture states its only ends (the end of the world) at his coming. Then he reigns. His coming meaning when Jesus returns...for the dead rising first and any alive and remaining. Because otherwise why would Jesus return if to set up his kingdom if the dead didnt rise at his coming? To say those who died in christ are already in the kingdom is a bit disingenous as we arent all in yet. He wants us to all be im together, not just when we lived on earth but for eternity. Right?

Sorry am rather confused by your statements.

Death is destroyed by the resurrection,

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Cor.15:54

Jesus defeated death by his own resurrection, showing death has no power over him. Death has no power over him, because he is God. Watch this,

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor.15:26 <----(No more enemies after this. No sin, no evil, no Satan, no Gog-Magog.)

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. vs.27 <---God is above man. Paul is quoting Ps.8:6. This has a dual meaning. It refers to Adam and Jesus (God in flesh.) Now watch,

vs.28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, (When death is destroyed by the resurrection of the saints, when we are seen glorified, when we are made immortal)

then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (Then we will see Jesus glorified, immmortal, as he truly is.)

He's saying Jesus is equal to God. Do you understand?

How does anyone know when the time of gentiles is fulfilled? Is this when we look at the fig tree and see signs eg Israel a nation gathered together. Or nations gathered together against israel? Which is it.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom.11:25

Paul isn't saying, "Jews can't get saved again until all the gentiles are saved." He means Jew + gentile = all Israel.

We are gathered to him now by faith in Christ. This is the way it has always been. Later to be with him in person.

Same with "nations gathered against Israel." Satan's people have always been against believers.

 

[Hevosmies]

What if the battle of Armageddon, the Gog and Magog battle, and the fall of babylon, are all describing the same final defeat of the devil and his minions and his system from different angles?

Jesus returns so many times in the book of Revelation if read chronologically that there is definately some recapitulation or whatever the word is going on!

Example: Trees hurt in Revelation Chapter6 -> Chapter7 when 144 000 are sealed it says DONT hurt the trees BEFORE these guys are sealed. Obviously not chronological!

Revelation 11:15 looks like a second coming! Then in Revelation chapter12 looks like we're back in first century Jesus being born!

 

[garee]

Can you explain the Y part. When does this ministry end? How does anyone know when the time of gentiles is fulfilled? Is this when we look at the fig tree and see signs eg Israel a nation gathered together. Or nations gathered together against israel? Which is it.

I've read your whole post brother and explained the scriptures you're repeating in the other thread at least twice.

In 2Thes.2, Paul is telling them (and us),

1) "the day of Christ" (vs.2), the day Jesus comes in person (look, look, look, ---> 2Pet.3:10)

2) that day will not come, unless there is a departure from the truth first and the antichrist is manifested in this apostasy (vs.3) look, look, look--->(1Jn.3:10)

3) Satan manifested in the flesh. (vs.4)

4) Paul told them before. (vs.5)

5) Satan must oppose God in this world (vs.6)

6) he always has and will, until the ministry of Christ on earth, salvation offered to sinners ends (vs.7)

7) then, antichrist will be seen by all without his cover and so will Jesus as God Almighty. No evil is going to survive this encounter.

I would agree the day of the lord is the last day of this present world . The same day of the second death is cast into the lake of fire. The day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night.

We are in the last days ,. They began at the time of reformation .The veil is rent.

I regard to the antichrist. What is meant by without his cover?

The antichrists the many that are seen as the Bible describes the motive of operation is their cover. I think they have ben exposed by the word of God . I think lying spirits would benefit from thinking they are not revealed, as those who go out from us. Scriptures defines the us in him.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hmm ok but what about....the devil gathering together the deceived nations to battle of armageddon see rev 20:8-9

First of all, Rev.20:8:9 is not Armageddon. Armageddon takes places towards the end of God's wrath, at the end of the seven years. It is after the 7th bowl has been poured out that Jesus will return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. At that time, the beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. Then according to Rev.20:1-7 Satan will be thrown into and restricted in the Abyss for a literal thousand years. At the end of the thousand years he will be released and will deceive one last time by gathering those groups of people referred to as Gog and Magog and when they surround the camp of God's people, the city He loves (Jerusalem), God will rain down fire upon them. Then according to Rev.20:10, Satan is then thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown, where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Following that will be the great white throne judgment, where all the unrighteous dead are resurrected and judged according to their sins.

Also rev 19:19 the beast gathers his armies to fight the saints.

Rev.19:19 is the battle of Armageddon. You see there is a thousand years separating the battle of Armageddon from Rev.20:7-9. We know this because the scripture says "When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations." Below is the chronological order of end-time events according to scripture:

* You are here

* Christ appears and gathers the church taking them back to the Father's house (John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:13-18)

* The antichrist establishes his seven year agreement with many, which initiates that last seven years of Dan.9:27

* Wrath of God begins via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (Rev.6 thru 18)

* In the middle of the seven years, the antichrist/beast stops the offerings and sacrifices and sets up the abomination

* The woman/Israel flees out to that place in the wilderness prepared by God where they are cared for during the last 3 1/2 years

* The beast is given authority to make war and conquer the great tribulation saints during that last 3 1/2 years (Rev.13:5-7)

* The Lord returns to the earth at the end of the seven years and while Armageddon is taking place (Rev.16:13-16)

* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20)

* All of the wicked are killed with that double-edged sword from the mouth of the Lord (Rev.19:15, 21)

* A mighty angel descends from heaven and seizes Satan and throws him into the Abyss and seals it for a thousand years

* Millennial kingdom ensues where the church and the great tribulation saints will rule with Christ (Rev.2:26-27, 20:6)

* At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be released and will deceive Gog and Magog (Rev.20:7-8)

* Satan is then thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet where thrown (Rev.20:10)

* The great white throne judgement, where all of the unrighteous dead will be resurrected and judged (Rev.20:11-15)

* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (Rev.21 & 22)

* Eternity ====================================================>

 

[garee]

What if the battle of Armageddon, the Gog and Magog battle, and the fall of babylon, are all describing the same final defeat of the devil and his minions and his system from different angles?

Jesus returns so many times in the book of Revelation if read chronologically that there is definately some recapitulation or whatever the word is going on!

Example: Trees hurt in Revelation Chapter6 -> Chapter7 when 144 000 are sealed it says DONT hurt the trees BEFORE these guys are sealed. Obviously not chronological!

Revelation 11:15 looks like a second coming! Then in Revelation chapter12 looks like we're back in first century Jesus being born!

The book of Revelation is far from chronological! The language is signified as the language of parables that use signifiers so we v can receive the unseen spirilual understanding. . Like the use of the word thousand when used with years. It is used as a unknown to those who walk by faith. Or thousand again when it comes to numbering men (forbidden by Go) .as another faith principle using the word thousand . 144,000 the whole bride of Christ, the church

There does seem to be the idea of switching back and forth between time periods . Revelation begins from the perspective of the last day, the day of the lord that will come like a thief in the night just as in the days of Noah .

Revelation 11:15 is from the standpoint of the last day . The final trump has blown . Revelation 12 again is the last day using a parable as a picture of the bride of Christ

The two accounts have different literary styles, scope, and organizational principles but speak of the same event like that of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 accounts same event shown in two ways The picture represented in Revelation 12 is the bride of Christ. She as known by the metaphorical number 144,000 (no longer male and female Jew or gentile) is shown clothed with the righteousness of Christ, the glory of God. its the end of time the time keepers Sun and mon under her feet. In the new heavens and earth the time keepers will not be needed .there will be no darkness.

 

[Lanolin]

This is the battle of Gog and Magog AFTER the Millennium. Not Armageddon.

This is the battle of Armageddon BEFORE the Millennium.

Can you tell me who gog and magog are. Why are there two battles. So the amills dont believe there are any battles or its only one battle? Where will the second battle take place?

Wasnt there a battle at Megiddo, or was that BC?

 

[Lanolin]

The book of Revelation is far from chronological! The language is signified as the language of parables that use signifiers so we v can receive the unseen spirilual understanding. . Like the use of the word thousand when used with years. It is used as a unknown to those who walk by faith. Or thousand again when it comes to numbering men (forbidden by Go) .as another faith principle using the word thousand . 144,000 the whole bride of Christ, the church

There does seem to be the idea of switching back and forth between time periods . Revelation begins from the perspective of the last day, the day of the lord that will come like a thief in the night just as in the days of Noah .

Revelation 11:15 is from the standpoint of the last day . The final trump has blown . Revelation 12 again is the last day using a parable as a picture of the bride of Christ

The two accounts have different literary styles, scope, and organizational principles but speak of the same event like that of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 accounts same event shown in two ways The picture represented in Revelation 12 is the bride of Christ. She as known by the metaphorical number 144,000 (no longer male and female Jew or gentile) is shown clothed with the righteousness of Christ, the glory of God. its the end of time the time keepers Sun and mon under her feet. In the new heavens and earth the time keepers will not be needed .there will be no darkness.

Oh ok so you are of the belief that 144,000 is not a literal number as well. Ok interesting. I didnt think it was symbolic, but then this is only first fruits of Israel...there are tens of thousnads, thousands of thousands of other saints who come in who are not from those tribes...but tribes from every tongue and nation, without number...funny the book of revelation gives specific numbers for the tribes of Israel though.

 

[Lanolin]

Death is destroyed by the resurrection,

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Cor.15:54

Jesus defeated death by his own resurrection, showing death has no power over him. Death has no power over him, because he is God. Watch this,

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor.15:26 <----(No more enemies after this. No sin, no evil, no Satan, no Gog-Magog.)

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. vs.27 <---God is above man. Paul is quoting Ps.8:6. This has a dual meaning. It refers to Adam and Jesus (God in flesh.) Now watch,

vs.28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, (When death is destroyed by the resurrection of the saints, when we are seen glorified, when we are made immortal)

then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (Then we will see Jesus glorified, immmortal, as he truly is.)

He's saying Jesus is equal to God. Do you understand?


For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom.11:25

Paul isn't saying, "Jews can't get saved again until all the gentiles are saved." He means Jew + gentile = all Israel.

We are gathered to him now by faith in Christ. This is the way it has always been. Later to be with him in person.

Same with "nations gathered against Israel." Satan's people have always been against believers.

Ok...then can you explain gog and magog? Who are they?
Doesnt Paul say all of Israel will be saved...because God had promised them. As far as I can tell they arent all saved yet. For you, your POV suggests the same kind of thinking as 'replacement theology' ...is it?

 

[Lanolin]

Garee it seems you are of the belief that the final trump has blown.

When was that? But if so, then we must all be in our resurrected bodies living in the kingdom now. But we arent. We only have the deposit!

IM sorry but your belief requires a lot of origami of the book of revelation.
And dispies have too many gaps and holes cut in the book of revelation to make sense.

 

[garee]

* Christ appears and gathers the church taking them back to the Father's house (John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:13-18)

I would ask taking them back from where seeing no man has received the new promised body as the wife of Christ..We are not that in which we will be.

That event will be in the twinkling of the eye, the last day.

The church as a new creature is the bride of Christ is not considered Jew or Gentile, male or female having nothing to do with the corrupted dying flesh of mankind .

She does not disappear anywhere throughout the Bible. Its the whole goal of Christ, our husband.Christ coming to be with his bride forever more. We are not what we will be . The church is never about the things seen but the things not seen .The Holy place of God as His hidden glory is not of this world . It will be the light of Glory of God the new creation .

John 14 King James Version (KJV) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When he left, the promised glory of God did occur. The graves were opened and the old testament saints that did have the Spirit of Christ entered the many mansions..... the first resurrection. The same resurrection all Christians enter into when they first believed, from death to new life..

To be absent of the body is to be present in the spiritual house of God made up of many lively stones many . We are it would seem receiving the end of our faith. The living hope of the appearing of our new bodies.


Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when "it" testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter1:9-11

 

[Lanolin]

Gareee when those graves were opened did you count all the OT saints listed in the Bible and did they add up to 12,000 from each tribe. Just wondering.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Can you tell me who gog and magog are. Why are there two battles. So the amills dont believe there are any battles or its only one battle? Where will the second battle take place?

Wasnt there a battle at Megiddo, or was that BC?

Hello again Lanolin,

The battle of "Megiddo" is synonymous with the battle of Armageddon, i.e. they are the same battle. The battle of Armageddon takes place just prior to the beginning of the millennial kingdom. And the Gog, Magog event takes place at the end of the thousand years.

Regarding when Satan deceives Gog and Magog, there is no real battle, as scripture states that they will march across the breadth of the earth and surround the camp of God's people, the city He loves (Israel), where God just rains fire down upon them. End of battle!

 

[Lanolin]

It seems to me Garee you wont even see Jesus coming back cos you dont really believe he will return. That dont make sense.

 

[Lanolin]

Hello again Lanolin,

The battle of "Megiddo" is synonymous with the battle of Armageddon, i.e. they are the same battle. The battle of Armageddon takes place just prior to the beginning of the millennial kingdom. And the Gog, Magog event takes place at the end of the thousand years.

Regarding when Satan deceives Gog and Magog, there is no real battle, as scripture states that they will march across the breadth of the earth and surround the camp of God's people, the city He loves (Israel), where God just rains fire down upon them. End of battle!

Can you explain who Gog and magog are, and are they just surrounding Jeruslem then..? Isnt megiddo near Jerusalem?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Can you explain who Gog and magog are

I believe that the use of the terms "Gog and Magog" are figurative names representing people from all over the earth who will be those who surround God's city.

What I mean is that, if we go back and look to Ezekiel, we see that Gog and Magog are representing the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. And with them will be Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer and Beth-togarmah from the far north with all its troops—many nations with you. So Gog and Magog may just be a collective name representing all of the same types of people who will rebel against God at the end of the thousand years.

and are they just surrounding Jeruslem then..? Isnt megiddo near Jerusalem?

Once again, Megiddo is a large valley where God is going to gather all of the kings and their nations just prior to when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, which again, is before the thousand years.

Regarding when Gog and Magog surround the camp of God's people, it says nothing about Armageddon, or them gathering in Megiddo. You are confusing time frames and battles.

 

[Lanolin]

I believe that the use of the terms "Gog and Magog" are figurative names representing people from all over the earth who will be those who surround God's city.

What I mean is that, if we go back and look to Ezekiel, we see that Gog and Magog are representing the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. And with them will be Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer and Beth-togarmah from the far north with all its troops—many nations with you. So Gog and Magog may just be a collective name representing all of the same types of people who will rebel against God at the end of the thousand years.



Once again, Megiddo is a large valley where God is going to gather all of the kings and their nations just prior to when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, which again, is before the thousand years.

Regarding when Gog and Magog surround the camp of God's people, it says nothing about Armageddon, or them gathering in Megiddo. You are confusing time frames and battles.

Ok so where exactly is this camp.

 

[Lanolin]

To me it seems the same location but ok one battle of which ends the false prophet and beast thrown into the lake of fire.
Then another battle one thosuand years later the devil gets thrown into the same fire.

And then after that theres a judgement and all the dead who arent in the book of life thrown into the lake of fire.

If I am reading revelation in order. So the amils believe this all happens at once?

 

[garee]

Ok...then can you explain gog and magog? Who are they?
Doesnt Paul say all of Israel will be saved...because God had promised them. As far as I can tell they arent all saved yet. For you, your POV suggests the same kind of thinking as 'replacement theology' ...is it?

The all of Israel. Israel a word that means those who wrestle with men and God and overcome as not after the flesh but of the new born again Spirit of Christ. Two kinds of Israel. One seen faithless without hope. The other by faith.(not seen)

He named as a promised His bride once called Israel, Christians the name in the book of Acts. Christian a word with no other meaning added means "residents of the city of Christ" . The new heavenly Jerusalem the Holy unseen place of God prepared as the wife of Christ.

No such thing as replacement theology . Flesh gives birth to flesh .The Spirit of God gives birth to spirit .

The reformation has come, the flesh of a Jew used in a parable for that time period as shadows and mere carnal ordinance had come to a end. We look up to our King not horizonal at the flesh of men as if we did wrestles against flesh and blood.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ok so where exactly is this camp.

The scripture states the following:

"They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

The camp of God's people is the same as the city He loves, which is Jerusalem. It's just two different ways of describing the same city

 

[Nehemiah6]

Can you tell me who gog and magog are.

Gog and Magog in general refers to the northern enemies of Israel, with Gog being the leader (prince) of Russia, and the land of Magog being Russia. The other nations associated with Magog are all from between and around the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea (former southern Soviet Union) including Georgia, Armenia, Turkey (Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, Torgarmah), and Iran (Persia). Ethiopia and Libya are also mentioned in Ezekiel 38. Some claim that the narrative in Ezekiel is different from that in Revelation, but there is really no need to make that distinction.

Why are there two battles.

The first battle (Armageddon or Har Megiddo) is organized by the Antichrist (against Israel) along with Satan and his evil spirits. The second battle is organized by Satan (the Antichrist having been cast into the Lake of Fire) against Christ, but also against Israel (from where Christ reigns).

So the amills dont believe there are any battles or its only one battle?

Since the Amils do not believe in a literal Millennium, they probably ignore everything as in Scripture and make up their own narrative (which says the Millennium is right now, and has been around for more that a thousand years.