Does man have a libertarian free will?

[UnitedWithChrist]

I already got that bro. Perhaps you misunderstood my post and its intent?

Probably

 

[preacher4truth]

Probably

It's all good bro!

 

[Melach]

Drawing men to Christ is NOT compulsion. If God were to compel men to be saved all of Israel -- the ELECT NATION OF GOD -- would have been saved. So we have more of your false theology because you do not believe the Bible.

Now take note from Scripture that God and Christ do not compel men to be saved:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Mt 23:37)

Did the Jews resist the Holy Spirit? Absolutely. This is one verse and there are many others. IRRESISTIBLE GRACE IS A MAN-MADE MYTH.

i offer biggest verse, that even says Holy Spirit is resisted, uses those verses look guys:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

 

[Whispered]

i offer biggest verse, that even says Holy Spirit is resisted, uses those verses look guys:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The Calvinist, RT answer? Those were the non-elect! TULIP is therefore true. How many souls lost to that devilish flowering of false teaching?

 

[Melach]

The Calvinist, RT answer? Those were the non-elect! TULIP is therefore true. How many souls lost to that devilish flowering of false teaching?

ah true. bad argument from me. but my counter to that answer would be: doesnt everyone resist the Holy Ghost then? its my same answer for the verses talking about pharisees etc. being blinded so they dont turn and be saved. but why does God have to blind totally depraved people with stone hearts who cant turn anyway? see it doesnt make any sense in calvinist setting.

jews were never calvinists. even today they believe in freedom of will

 

[Whispered]

ah true. bad argument from me. but my counter to that answer would be: doesnt everyone resist the Holy Ghost then? its my same answer for the verses talking about pharisees etc. being blinded so they dont turn and be saved. but why does God have to blind totally depraved people with stone hearts who cant turn anyway? see it doesnt make any sense in calvinist setting.

jews were never calvinists. even today they believe in freedom of will

I have a friend who once said, you can find using select scripture why you should buy a car tomorrow, if you're willing to work at cutting scripture to pieces to gain God's OK to buy a car you really can't afford. They call it the, God Did It sermon.

Have you read Romans 9?
Or, Joshua 11?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

i offer biggest verse, that even says Holy Spirit is resisted, uses those verses look guys:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Irresistible grace does not teach that ppl can not resist the Holy Spirit, but that they will not resist it all the way unto death. That at the right time, God will effectually draw them to Himself.

When you see the Greek word used for 'draw', you see it means this: to drag, to draw, haul, drew. The Greek word is ἑλκύω 'helkuo. So when the word 'draw' is used, it is used in a way to mean effectiveness in doing the drawing. In John 18:10 John wrote Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave’s name was Malchus. Now, 'drew' in that verse is helkuo, which means when Peter drew his sword, the sword was effectually drawn from its scabbard. Then John also wrote in John 21:11 Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn. So, when Peter drew(helkuo) the net, he effectually drew(dragged) it to shore. That is what helkuo means. It is the same word used in John 12:32 when John quoted the Christ saying "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” So, if the Christ is doing helkuo to all mankind w/o exception, then all mankind w/o exception is being effectually drawn(dragged) to Him, therefore, He is saving all mankind w/o exception. That is why we aver that John 12:32 does not teach Him drawing all mankind w/o exception, because helkuo teaches those drawn will come to Him. And we both know that not all mankind w/o exception will be saved.

 

[Dan58]

"believeth" is not an act of the will.

You cannot make yourself believe.

I did... I chose to believe, therefore it was my will to believe. If I chose not to believe, that would also be my will. "Whomsoever believeth" is a choice, its a decision everyone makes.. If belief is not an act of ones will, then John 3:16 is irrelevant , and no one should be held accountable for accepting or rejecting the gospel... jmo

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

@Melach

Here's a link where you can see where it is used in many places...

https://biblehub.com/greek/1670.htm

 

[JamOn]

I did... I chose to believe, therefore it was my will to believe. If I chose not to believe, that would also be my will. "Whomsoever believeth" is a choice, its a decision everyone makes.. If belief is not an act of ones will, then John 3:16 is irrelevant , and no one should be held accountable for accepting or rejecting the gospel... jmo

that’s interesting about whosoever, I’ve looked at about the top 30 bibles trans around 8 have it as who so ever others say who ever or who

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

ah true. bad argument from me. but my counter to that answer would be: doesnt everyone resist the Holy Ghost then? its my same answer for the verses talking about pharisees etc. being blinded so they dont turn and be saved. but why does God have to blind totally depraved people with stone hearts who cant turn anyway? see it doesnt make any sense in calvinist setting.

jews were never calvinists. even today they believe in freedom of will

Go to John 11. These religious leaders saw an undeniable act of the Christ when raising Lazarus from the dead. They knew he'd been dead for four days, so when the Christ raised him, they could not deny it. But did they turn to Him and rightly praise Him for doing this miracle? No. They sought ways to kill Him and also Lazarus, as he was a miracle they could not easily turn a blind eye to. God is as active in hardening ppl hearts as He is softening them. The same sun that melts the snow, also hardens the clay. God was active in doing this to fulfill They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend.[Isaiah 44:18] And also so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”[Mark 4:12]

So, God was active in hardening these ppl's hearts so they could not believe in this miracle the Christ had performed in their midst.

FYI: I use www.literalword.com, and sometimes is uses all caps on verses that were written in the OT and spoken in the NT. I did not use all caps in that post, it was that way on that site.

 

[garee]

Irresistible love?
I would say if Love was at all in the equation of TULIP or RT, Calvinism, those traditions of man would not have first made their god a moral monster that, prior to creating all things, made a list of people whom he'd force into his grace because he first made them Totally Depraved unable to enter his grace through faith alone.
All this predicated on the determinism, by the way.

Then TULIP's god created the Heavens and the Earth, and on as it goes in Genesis. Knowing, that in order for those names in that book of life to come to fruition according to his plan, he would have to insure Eve sinned, and then Adam. And then he'd have to let Adam take the fall for his action of eating forbidden fruit TULIP's god planted so as to make it available to eat. Thereby violating the first law of god.
Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
But TULIP's god being all knowing, knew that would happen. Had to. Otherwise, the names on the list of his predetermined pre-selected list would mean nothing.

TULIP is all its god all the time. Because its god made man in its image and likeness.....TOTALLY DEPRAVED!
As planned.

That's why TULIP is the antithesis of the actual God.

Not everyone who says to me , Lord, Lord....False prophets, false teachers, will find they are not in the Kingdom.
And Calvin, Piper, MacArthur, who shows he believes what he preaches as one Totally Depraved who, from the pulpit, dedicates entire sermons to attacking other preachers not of his beliefs.

Sound familiar?
Low hanging fruit. Upon the pastors and disciples of TULIP alike.


God have mercy.
Can you imagine living a God given life....having no choice?

I can imagine doing the will of one unseen the Spirit of Truth who is not served by human hands and does not live in temples made with hands. But moves men according to His loving will just as he determines .

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:Acts 24-27

Why would we seek after Him is they would feel sadly about it rather than haply seeing it is Him who does give us the desires of our newly created hearts?

When God who is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires. When He created mankind he determined to give them a loving will by which they could in submission serve him. They determined themselves to serve the will of a creature called a serpent seen, after another voice . it was not the desire of God that they serve another will .( the antichrist) the spirit of error the god of this world .

They opposed the idea of a God working in them to both will and perform His good pleasure.(imputed righteousness.) They in effect murmured and said we are not robots but will do the will of another. .

We are lovingly commanded to not murmur like Adam and Eve.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Philipians2:13-15

We are given his understanding that he perform the things appointed to us he alone can make our hearts soft. let your light shine .

 

[Melach]

Irresistible grace does not teach that ppl can not resist the Holy Spirit, but that they will not resist it all the way unto death. That at the right time, God will effectually draw them to Himself.

When you see the Greek word used for 'draw', you see it means this: to drag, to draw, haul, drew. The Greek word is ἑλκύω 'helkuo. So when the word 'draw' is used, it is used in a way to mean effectiveness in doing the drawing. In John 18:10 John wrote Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave’s name was Malchus. Now, 'drew' in that verse is helkuo, which means when Peter drew his sword, the sword was effectually drawn from its scabbard. Then John also wrote in John 21:11 Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn. So, when Peter drew(helkuo) the net, he effectually drew(dragged) it to shore. That is what helkuo means. It is the same word used in John 12:32 when John quoted the Christ saying "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” So, if the Christ is doing helkuo to all mankind w/o exception, then all mankind w/o exception is being effectually drawn(dragged) to Him, therefore, He is saving all mankind w/o exception. That is why we aver that John 12:32 does not teach Him drawing all mankind w/o exception, because helkuo teaches those drawn will come to Him. And we both know that not all mankind w/o exception will be saved.

this is something new to consider i havent heard this argument before. but from looking at it, its true that drawing in bible isnt like advertising and trying to charm or woo people in. its more forceful. like that one parable Jesus says compel them to come lolz i bet the catholic church loved that one for the crusades

but draw seems to be powerful word, more like drag.

 

[garee]

Drawing men to Christ is NOT compulsion. If God were to compel men to be saved all of Israel -- the ELECT NATION OF GOD -- would have been saved. So we have more of your false theology because you do not believe the Bible.

Now take note from Scripture that God and Christ do not compel men to be saved:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Mt 23:37)

Did the Jews resist the Holy Spirit? Absolutely. This is one verse and there are many others. IRRESISTIBLE GRACE IS A MAN-MADE MYTH.

Words have meanings attached not subject to change.. Change the meaning of one word make the word of God without effect.

All Israel is not Israel . Israel as the bride of Christ is the new born again name he named fleshly Jacob. . One who previously wrestled against flesh and blood as in a no win situation. Dead in ones trespasses and sin without God in the world .

Those (Israel) who wrestle with flesh and blood and have the Spirit of Christ working with them they can win being yoked with their savior

Genesis 32:27-29 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)And the man said to him, “What is your name?”And Jacob said, “My name is Jacob.” Then the man said, “Your name will not be Jacob. Your name will now be Israel. I give you this name because you have fought with God and with men, and you have won.”

No Spirit of Christ no winning . The flesh profits for nothing.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Jacob represents the flesh of all mankind as a outward Jew. Israel the born again spirit as a inward Jew.

Christian . . meaning residents of the city of Christ, represents the bride of Christ. She is nether male nor female, Jew nor gentile. But a new creation.Christian is the final name he named His bride the church . Salvation has nothing to do with the corrupted flesh and blood of mankind.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The Calvinist, RT answer? Those were the non-elect! TULIP is therefore true. How many souls lost to that devilish flowering of false teaching?

How many saints are dwelling in condemnation due to Arminian false teaching, thinking that they have lost their salvation?

How many saints are dwelling in immorality, because some Arminian false teaching that they are saved because they simply believe, with no fruit in their lives as evidence?

By the way, you would have to disprove Reformed theology to claim that it is harmful, and you haven't done that.

 

[UnderGrace]

I did... I chose to believe, therefore it was my will to believe. If I chose not to believe, that would also be my will. "Whomsoever believeth" is a choice, its a decision everyone makes.. If belief is not an act of ones will, then John 3:16 is irrelevant , and no one should be held accountable for accepting or rejecting the gospel... jmo

You were persuaded, convinced and convicted first.
Belief is always about being persuaded.... that is all I am saying.

Being persuaded is passive, not a decision.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

this is something new to consider i havent heard this argument before. but from looking at it, its true that drawing in bible isnt like advertising and trying to charm or woo people in. its more forceful. like that one parable Jesus says compel them to come lolz i bet the catholic church loved that one for the crusades

but draw seems to be powerful word, more like drag.

I’ve seen it as it can be used to compel with an inward power.

Yes, God doesn’t woo ppl like we would a person for a date. I can find nowhere where helkuo means anything other than what I showed lead. Lead, compel can also be used. So in John 12:32, helkuo is used for ‘draw’. And if He is drawing(helkuo) everybody w/o exception, there everybody w/o exception is saved. Helkuo is that powerful of a word. It is also used in John 6:44 where it say “No man can come unto Me except my Father draws(helkuo) them. Again, it’s a forceful drawing, an effective drawing, as He doesn’t drag us kicking and screaming against our wills. He changes our natures, passing from death unto life. And in doing this, our wills are also changed. Unless the nature is changed in a lost person, the will will never change. Grace must first be wrought upon the heart before a change in nature and will takes place.

 

[Melach]

I’ve seen it as it can be used to compel with an inward power.

Yes, God doesn’t woo ppl like we would a person for a date. I can find nowhere where helkuo means anything other than what I showed lead. Lead, compel can also be used. So in John 12:32, helkuo is used for ‘draw’. And if He is drawing(helkuo) everybody w/o exception, there everybody w/o exception is saved. Helkuo is that powerful of a word. It is also used in John 6:44 where it say “No man can come unto Me except my Father draws(helkuo) them. Again, it’s a forceful drawing, an effective drawing, as He doesn’t drag us kicking and screaming against our wills. He changes our natures, passing from death unto life. And in doing this, our wills are also changed. Unless the nature is changed in a lost person, the will will never change. Grace must first be wrought upon the heart before a change in nature and will takes place.

well i cant disagree with what it means. i also dont believe everyone is saved scripture is clear on that. is there any verses that say anyone thats drawn automatically is saved or comes? if there is some verse that says people drawn will come, and a verse that says Jesus draws all men, but not all are saved we know. then that proves all there must mean something else i would agree with that then.

 

[preacher4truth]

well i cant disagree with what it means. i also dont believe everyone is saved scripture is clear on that. is there any verses that say anyone thats drawn automatically is saved or comes? if there is some verse that says people drawn will come, and a verse that says Jesus draws all men, but not all are saved we know. then that proves all there must mean something else i would agree with that then.

Yes: John 6:35-40. Note particularly John 6:44, those drawn will be raised.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

well i cant disagree with what it means. i also dont believe everyone is saved scripture is clear on that. is there any verses that say anyone thats drawn automatically is saved or comes? if there is some verse that says people drawn will come, and a verse that says Jesus draws all men, but not all are saved we know. then that proves all there must mean something else i would agree with that then.

John 6:44 is crystal clear. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. Notice how He said no one can come unless the Father draws(helkuo) them. And that word also means to literally drag off. Not that He does this against our will while we’re kicking and screaming, but that He effectively draws us to Himself. Also notice these He draws(helkuo) He will raise on the last day. This means those He draws to Himself, He also saves, and they will be raised on the last day.