Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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Hi
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I understand there is a hiarchy, scripture is clear.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Eph 6:12 AV)
Fallen angels became demons?
Demons are the spirits of the dead Nephilim from the flood.
They received the same "pneuma"....Breath/Spirit of God,
nothing lives without Him.
God Bless!
we are not merely flesh and bones, celldude.
we are nephesh chayyah.
read Genesis.
so here we are again with you calling Jesus a liar, rejecting Luke 16 as myth.
nothing in the text calls Luke 16:19-31 a parable.
Christ does not present lies as though they are incontrovertible, ordinary facts.
you do.
you'll see.
you will also die, and not very long from now, in relative terms.
we all do.
ya think God created you only to annhialate you?
and then replace you with a facsimile that is artificially filled with your memories?
that's evil, and it is completely contrary to the scriptural narrative.
see Exodus 17:3
It's amazing how many people immediately recognize that the "earthly house" refers to our mortal body, that the "house eternal in the heavens" refers to the resurrection body, but no one seems to understand or care about what "unclothed" and "naked" refers to. And their failure to do so is why they erroneously claim the passage supports consciousness in death, when the passage actually proves the exact opposite of that.
Every "immoral soul" believer has all their life believed that at death, the body goes into the grave and the disembodied "soul" either enters heaven or goes burning in hell without a body...until a guy like me comes along and throws a monkey wrench into their theology, leaving them scrambling for ideas on how the Rich Man and Lazarus can have resurrection bodies before the resurrection even takes place.
We must choose either the one or the other: (A) Either the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, or (B) Jesus contradicted Scripture by depicting the Rich Man and Lazarus "raised with a spiritual body" before the resurrection at the end of time when Scripture says the dead will be raised with spiritual bodies.
Can the chiasm of verse 14 remain intact if we interpret "them also which sleep in Jesus God bring with Him" as "God will bring disembodied saints that went to heaven at death back to Earth with Him at the Second Coming? No.
The only interpretation that leaves the chiasm intact is, "just as God brought forth from death Jesus, even so will God bring forth from death the sleeping saints "with Him", or "in like manner".
This is where we differ. I don't a verse and assign other things meaning when it causes so much contradiction. I prefer to say I don't understand that right now or I am missing a truth somewhere in my understanding and don't know. So, is there a flaw in the understanding of what is truly being said as opposed as to what we believe?
We have to investigate it amongst things we are sure of.
John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see him as he is.
So what does that do to it?
I can't let a 'single' verse I don't completely understand dictate what I believe about everything or change the way I read those words. We are told we will plant vineyards, we will eat, we will judge, we will serve. We have two bodies. I will stick with the simple things I know and put what I don't understand in that place until I do.
I understand that is how you believe and those beliefs have made you read the words of God differently. BUT I must follow the Holy Spirit, and He does not lead me in that direction. But, Thank you for giving your beliefs.
1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
That one had flesh and bone. Hopefully you see what I am getting at. I know all the 'evil spirits or ghosts' don't have bodies and set up house in those who do, so I have to ask myself does that fit in somehow. Like I said, I don't know.
1Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
'immoral'? are you speaking of unbelievers? just kidding
I have never imagined my soul to be 'without' a body, and never knew a guy had a monkey wrench.
Could Jesus have been speaking of the future?? Lazarus himself wasn't dead at that time was he? We should try to go more with the 'spirit of the words' and less about the words themselves, 'less law, more faith' so to speak. After all, that is how the Holy Spirit leads. So we don't have to choose one or the other, we just have to be patient and see where we will be lead
I'm going to spell it out for you: THE BIBLE SAYS THE DEAD DO NOT PUT ON OUR IMMORTAL BODY UNTIL THE RESURRECTION. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS ARE WEARING BODIES IN LUKE 16. ONLY IF THIS IS A PARABLE DOES THIS MAKE SENSE.
Sorry, but it is the "immoral soul" crowd that makes Jesus contradict Scripture, while we who understand the passage to be a parable bring no indictment against Jesus.
Sorry, meant "immortal" LOL
Wait, you never imagined the "soul" of a guy lying in a casket as being without a flesh and bone body in heaven or burning in hell? Sure you have!
No, because in the parable the details indicate there is still time for those yet living to be warned, and we all know that at the time of the resurrection when the dead get their resurrection bodies, the opportunity to repent will have long past.
Sure, Jesus isn't employing symbolism when He says dudes completely engulfed in flame can carry on lucid conversations, right? Or Abraham's bosom is 10 miles wide and 50 miles high to accommodate all the dead who've ever died, right? Or, the fact that both men have eyes, tongues, and fingers although they aren't supposed to get those until the resurrection at the end of time, right?
No, He created us to live forever with the Lake of Fire reserved only for the devil and his angels. We chose death by surrender to Satan's will instead of God's will.
Good gravy, if I'm gonna be as ugly then as I am now, I'd just as soon join the impenitent Jeremiah says will "sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake"
Nah, it's fully in harmony with Scripture to say that at death, the Spirit returns to God, the Body to the dust, and the Soul ceases to be until the resurrection.
Why do you continue to believe in such nonsense as when current flow through a light bulb is interrupted, the light goes on shining on another plane of existence for all eternity?
Any way you slice it, the Rich Man and Lazarus have bodies, but you guys teach at death the body goes into the ground and the disembodied "soul" enters heaven or goes burning in hell to await the resurrection when they will receive their resurrection bodies.
Reason and common sense demand the one or the other of these two alternatives: Either the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, or Jesus contradicts the rest of Scripture by depicting these guys with eyes, fingers, tongues, mouths, bosoms, etc., before the resurrection when the dead receive their resurrection bodies. Compromise is impossible.
Rich man and Lazarus do not have their physical bodies in Luke ch16 = they have both died = their bodies are in the grave.
Their soul is fully conscious and receiving their due = trust what the Lord says and do not add to his words.
ALSO = the LORD rebukes your unbelief in Luke 16, even as a 'parable'.
Tell you how I feel.Sometimes I even feel that distinguishing good from evil is not so important for God's ultimate goal life.
Just as God did not allow Adam to eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil in Genesis.
The purpose of God's creation is life, not good and evil. All good and evil are meaningless in front of life.
Just as God did not allow Adam to eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil in Genesis.
The purpose of God's creation is life, not good and evil. All good and evil are meaningless in front of life.
FreeGrace2 said:
Is this a defense for "soul sleep"?
Regardless, such thinking simply misunderstands figurative speech. "dead" can refer to physical death, without any idea of the soul being asleep.
To prove that our souls do NOT sleep, Paul said this:
2 Cor 5
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
iow, when the believer is "absent from the body" or physically dead (soul leaves the body), they ARE PRESENT with the Lord.
So you would have to argue that the soul is in the Lord's presence, but sleeping. Yeah, sure.
But, not only that, we have Rev 6-
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
Please don't argue that these souls under the altar in heaven are sleeping. They are "calling out in a loud voice" asking for revemge.
There is no such thing as soul sleep. And the souls of unsaved people will certainly not be sleeping in the lake of fire.
Oh, I just thought of another clear example, from Luke 16:19-31. Jesus gave an account of a poor man named Lazarus and a rich man. Both died and went to "Hades" where ALL people went after death in the OT. Laz to Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom, and the rich man to Torments.
While some will argue that this is just a story, or parable, it isn't. Jesus named names, unlike ANY and EVERY other parable.
He named one of the dead men, and Abraham himself, also dead. And the rich man actually talked to Abraham and Abraham replied back
So, no, the souls of dead people do NOT sleep.
Is this a defense for "soul sleep"?
This is hardly a direct and straightforward answer to me question. Are you afraid of admitting "soul sleep"?
Regardless, such thinking simply misunderstands figurative speech. "dead" can refer to physical death, without any idea of the soul being asleep.
To prove that our souls do NOT sleep, Paul said this:
2 Cor 5
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
iow, when the believer is "absent from the body" or physically dead (soul leaves the body), they ARE PRESENT with the Lord.
So you would have to argue that the soul is in the Lord's presence, but sleeping. Yeah, sure.
But, not only that, we have Rev 6-
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
Please don't argue that these souls under the altar in heaven are sleeping. They are "calling out in a loud voice" asking for revemge.
There is no such thing as soul sleep. And the souls of unsaved people will certainly not be sleeping in the lake of fire.
Oh, I just thought of another clear example, from Luke 16:19-31. Jesus gave an account of a poor man named Lazarus and a rich man. Both died and went to "Hades" where ALL people went after death in the OT. Laz to Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom, and the rich man to Torments.
While some will argue that this is just a story, or parable, it isn't. Jesus named names, unlike ANY and EVERY other parable.
He named one of the dead men, and Abraham himself, also dead. And the rich man actually talked to Abraham and Abraham replied back
So, no, the souls of dead people do NOT sleep.
I have never 'seen' or imagined someone going from a flesh body to a no body. Always have had bodies and those bodies have always had mass. Only 'spirits' I see with out any 'mass' are evil spirits. What can I say?, that is my truth. And I don't see anyone 'burning' in hell at all. At least not yet and even when I do, I don't see that as eternal either.
I slice it with them having bodies, celestial ones. I don't have them disembodied at all. Again no burning in hell. Unseen and seen worlds. Don't be so hard on yourself, you can't know and understand it all right now. That doesn't make things impossible, just seemingly impossible
1Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
lol you certainly think a lot of yourself but no I don’t see any monkey wrench you’ve thrown
Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying so you think he did but it’s never going to be that Jesus said the wrong thing it’s always going to be we don’t quite get what he’s saying and we are interpreting things other than how he made it clear
Good gravy, man! The text plainly says these dead guys have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, and obviously ears to hear, legs to go warn people, etc.
I'm a firm believer in interpreting Scripture various ways as long as the context for that allows but in this case there is simply no contextual way to interpret Jesus' words. These three dead guys have bodies and the body parts that go along with it, period.
Which means the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable or Jesus contradicted Himself and the other Bible writers who said the dead get their resurrection bodies in the resurrection at the end of the world.