Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Genez]

But Natural Revelation is the concept taught in Romans 1:18ff. The topic of this passager is God's external creation -- from what has been made -- not his divine Special Revalation. Furthermore, the concept is clealy taught in the OT, as well! No straw men Just plain truth that you don't want to see.

There's none so blind who will not [freely] see. And methinks this has something to do with slavery.

God's grace must suppress the flesh for even a Natural revelation leading to God!

 

[Rufus]

I will lay out some for you.... (keeping it simple)

I said...
Likewise... By means of the Holy Spirit's power (God's grace) God places the dead unbeliever on life
support while drawing him. In doing do, forces life to manifest where it would not normally be seen.

​

Ephesians 2:1-3​

​

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked ​

according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the ​

spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ​

ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were ​

by nature children of wrath, just as the others.​

God takes up the slack for the lack of regeneration and allows a human soul to bypass the flesh.
In that state (all mentality level) a soul will be shown thoughts to consider in the privacy of his own mind.
It private and the person simply thinks he is having a thought of his own, which gives him total freedom to
quietly consider what he thinks of a matter God is presenting.

Ephesians 2:1-3​

​

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked ​

according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the ​

spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ​

ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and ​

were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.​

​

God even demonstrates that ability with even the born again Christian!

We are as a dead man in regards to the life power we must live in to serve Christ!
The Spirit keeps us alive in our mind and heart... spiritually,
as the Spirit CONTROLS our flesh, as to not allow the flesh to rule over our soul as it had done before regeneration!

In other words? Our old self is dead. The new life in Christ has taken over if we walk in Spirit and truth.

​

Romans 8:9​

​

You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. ​

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.​

For we have been crucified with Christ! Dead!

Galatians 2:20​

​

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me ​

and gave himself for me.​

Our body is dead in our walk as far as God is concerned.
And, the life we now live? Its to be in in Christ (the Word of God!).. Faith!
That Faith? He is the Word (John 1:1) being understood, in the growing believer.

The Holy Spirit is the power for our life to live that Word =- faith.
The more accurate, sound doctrine we gain, and understand?
The more our inner man in our thinking will reflect the Image of Christ!!!

2 Corinthians 3:18​

​

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, ​

are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, ​

which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.​

I have no qualms about it. All the hot shots who come here who think their clever thinking is going to throw a wrench
in our gears are the real losers. For in spite of themselves having such arrogance? God is still supplying the needed thinking
they lack by the positive believer. Which response God could have used to bring them to further into maturity.

And, ahh?

What the loser refuses to heed others reading later can benefit from and grow by.
So even losers help the winners to be growing in knowledge by grace!

I believe God will smile and wink when someone arrogant thinks he can hoodwink a believer.
For, God will use the loser's attack on the positive believer and its counter response, to make
someone who is positive to be made stronger when reading the responses to the attack.
Thus, learning a way to overcome that evil.

Romans 8:37​

​

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.​

​

Romans 8:28​

​

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, ​

who have been called according to his purpose."​

​

There we have it.

New motto should be?

"Stay Humble."
Remain teachable..
And God will stay with you."

grace and peace ................

Being made ALIVE by God is Regeneration! And...just as importantly, LIFE does not begin at a believer's new birth --but prior to it for those of us who are concerned about preserving the integrity of similies. In temporal reality life begins in a woman's womb, not at the time of birth.

 

[Rufus]

God's grace must suppress the flesh for even a Natural revelation leading to God!

God's grace must raise the dead to life so they can be free from and free to....

 

[Rufus]

Just repeating.

Similar to some in the Exodus generation who cried out for freedom from slavery.

Until they didn't want it any longer! The ancient Jews remind me of Jesus' Parable of the Four Soils -- and three of those kinds of hearts brought death!

 

[Genez]

Being made ALIVE by God is Regeneration!

Life support is a temporary switch that makes one alive long enough to receive what God wants considered.
Regeneration throws the switch to 'on' and gives the option to keep walking in life.


Yet? Sad to say. Stubborn dumb carnal Christians who live by their emotions are dead, even though they live.

1 Timothy 5:3-6​

​

Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. But if a widow has children ​

or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring ​

for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to ​

God. The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues ​

night and day to pray and to ask God for help. But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead ​

even while she lives.​

That was written about believers. All types of believers! Good and bad.
Believer = regenerated.

Regenerated people can become as the walking dead.

(For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you even with weeping, ​

as the enemies of the cross of Christ.​

​

Philippians 3:18​

.........

 

[studier]

But Natural Revelation is the concept taught in Romans 1:18ff. The topic of this passager is God's external creation -- from what has been made -- not his divine Special Revalation. Furthermore, the concept is clealy taught in the OT, as well! No straw men Just plain truth that you don't want to see.

There's none so blind who will not [freely] see. And methinks this has something to do with slavery.

So, to be clear, I'm in slavery? A natural man?

I'm going to set aside the theological constructs for now. You pushed against the common one I used while wrongly thinking you understood it. So, now, I'm not going to use your preferred construct.

The information in Rom1 that Paul was certainly familiar with is not so simplistic. Not only has God divinely designed into His Creation more that you seem to be thinking, but He has divinely made it clear to all men since the creation of the kosmos. The things He uses the things He has made not only put into men the knowledge and understanding of some of His attributes, but also of His judgment. If you're going to refer to this as "Natural Revelation" to go along with your "Natural Man" correlation, the you may want to consider the depths of what Natural Man is held responsible for not rejecting.

Some of what Paul is likely drawing on. I'm going to use a Messianic translation because for some reason they are not so touchy about drawing out some of the harshness in the language:

21 'Hear this, stupid, brainless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear:
22 Don't you fear me? - says ADONAI. Won't you tremble at my presence? I made the shore the limit for the sea; by eternal decree it cannot pass. Its waves may toss, but to no avail; although they roar, they cannot cross it.
23 But this people has a rebellious, defiant heart; they have rebelled and gone!
24 They don't say to themselves, "Let's fear ADONAI our God, who gives the fall and spring rains in season, who reserves us the weeks assigned for harvest."
25 Your crimes have overturned nature's rules, your sins have kept back good from you.'
26 "For among my people there are wicked men, who, like fowlers, lie in wait and set traps to catch their fellow human beings.
27 Their houses are as full of fraud as a cage full of birds. They grow rich and great,
28 sleek and bloated; they excel in acts of wickedness but do not plead on behalf of the orphan, thus enabling his cause to succeed; nor do they judge in favor of the poor.
29 "Should I not punish for this?" asks ADONAI. "Should I not be avenged on a nation like this?
30 A shocking and horrifying thing has happened in the land:
31 The prophets prophesy lies, the cohanim obey the prophets, and my people love it that way. But what will you do at the end of it all? (Jer. 5:21-31 CJB)

And:

NIV Psalm 19:1 For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice1 goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is deprived of its warmth.
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of the LORD are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the LORD are firm, and all of them are righteous.
10 They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb.
11 By them your servant is warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
12 But who can discern their own errors? Forgive my hidden faults.
13 Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then I will be blameless, innocent of great transgression.
14 May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
(Ps. 19:1-14 NIV)

Do you really think the Good News from God that He sent His Son who is alluded to since the fall and through the is so vastly beyond what He has made clear about Himself to all men and expects them to grasp or to be without excuse?

Do you think David or Jeremiah had such a limited view that they would agree with you that what Paul is speaking of in Rom1 is not divine revelation?

If you can or cannot get through this and broaden your thinking, the next thing I'm going to ask you to do is to see if you can see the close connection between this and the Gospel that was divinely revealed throughout history, which Paul is drawing on as he flows smoothly from 1:1-17 into 1:18 and following. What is it that the Gospel is revealing that God promised beforehand through His prophets in Holy Scripture? You'll have to look at the Text somewhat closely to answer this.

These theological constructs and wrongly dividing are devastating. This is not an attack against you. They're hard on all of us IMO.

 

[studier]

Until they didn't want it any longer! The ancient Jews remind me of Jesus' Parable of the Four Soils -- and three of those kinds of hearts brought death!

What about the 4th soil? You focus only on the ones who reject and fail. Some by His grace actually become productive or what are we doing here???

 

[Genez]

What about the 4th soil? You focus only on the ones who reject and fail. Some by His grace actually become productive or what are we doing here???

Even with good soil....

One throws on some cow manure as a fertilizer to make the crops stronger.

That is why God wants some who think bs doctrine to post here, as to cause the thinking good seed to be made to be stronger.


grace and peace!

 

[studier]

I would primarly choose Door #1 since Christ was talking to his OT saints (his disciples) about an upcoming change that would come about shortly after Jesus ratified the NC in his blood.

It would be better if you didn't choose primarily but defined your terminology. I was simply trying to get us started.

So, as best I can tell, you're saying all unregenerate Israel was under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Were they unregenerate and under the influence?

I think I saw you coaching hermeneutics in another post.

• Who is Jesus' audience in John 14?
• Why would you primarily choose #1 - all Jews are OT saints - as being those Jesus is speaking about?
• What do you think Jesus meant when He said the Spirit "lives with you" (NIV)?
  • When did the Spirit of Truth start living with them?

 

[studier]

Even with good soil....

One throws on some cow manure as a fertilizer to make the crops stronger.

That is why God wants some who think bs doctrine to post here, as to cause the thinking good seed to be made to be stronger.


grace and peace!

There's no doubt that challenges strengthen. They also make weary. Productivity is [good] work after all. Imagine the capacities it takes to be feeding and pruning all the branches so they produce...

 

[Rufus]

And while I think of it, thanks to Mr. Studier, another important spiritual truth has been revealed to me re the Exodus account that I nearly forgot to share. God "came down"to save his "firstborn", i.e. elect. AND...at the same time to destroy ALL of Pharaoh's firstborn sons (since he was the supreme ruler over Egypt)-- even the firstborn of the cattle as well. They were all exterminated. And he did this to teach the Hebrews (and us) an important lesson -- that God clearly made a distinction (as in two lumps of clay) between his firstborn and Egypt's (Ex 11:7). God made it emphatically clear that he did not "come down" to save all! It was never his intention then...and it was never his intention before then or since then!

Secondly, the two sets of "firstborn", again, represent God's elect (the godly seed of the Woman) and Egypt's firstborn represents the ungodly seed of the Serpent -- keeping in mind that Pharaoh was a type of Satan. But there is another feature about these two sets of firstborn that until recently has escaped my attention. God's firstborn whom he delivered consisted of all his elect -- men and women. But Egypt's firstborn consisted of only males. Why is this? Well...I think it's because of what happened in the Garden after the Fall.
Eve was clearly the spiritual mother of all the godly seed -- and the most prominent of this seed being the promised One who would one day come and crush the serpent's head. And he was a male...who would descend from Eve's biological-spiritual downline. Conversely, since Adam was clearly excluded from the promise made in Gen 3:15, this can only mean he was the lone male whose spiritual father was the Serpent. And this is how God ingeniously preserved the parallels between what happened in the Garden and what happened in Egypt on a much grander scale. After all, ALL the fallen human race is the "son" of Adam corporately -- possibly even the "Man of Sin" corporately in 2Thes 2:3) . Whereas the Last Adam has many sons and daughters and all are called God's "firstborn".

Also, Eve is a type of Bride of Christ; whereas the ancient Hebrews in Egypt were a type of Church (Heb 12:23). So again...the parallels prevail since the firstborn of God in this NC consists of his sons and daughters -- and also Christ's Bride.

One more thought...and what I'm about to say is speculation...so, I'm saying this up front. I think the Virgin Birth of Christ was absolutely necessary in order to guarantee his Impeccability. It might well be that the sin of Adam had a profound physiological affect on him whereby his sin nature was literally transmitted to the entire human race by his sperm and by all his male progeny. It's no accident that in Luke's genealogy that Adam is said to "descend" from Christ (as his Creator) instead of the other way around! If it were the other way around, then we'd have Christ descending from Adam -- just like all mankind! But if He descended from him, then the Last Adam must have been IN the first Adam!

One last thought building on the last: If Adam was saved by God in the Garden, then why is Adam always contrasted with the Last Adam? Why has the Church, historically, always believed that being IN Adam was NOT the place any of us will want to be when we die!? Or why does the bible, for that matter, teach this? What's so horrible about being in one of God's holy saints if God saved Adam?

 

[Rufus]

Now I'm going to ask you to define your terminology. What exactly is "Natural Revelation"? You took issue with my using a very common theological construct - "God Consciousness" - used to refer to this section of Scripture. So, if we're going to use your terminology, then let's see if we can agree on what it means.

So, what is "Natural Revelation"? I'd ask you to refer to Romans 1 and use Scripture as you explain it, since you're alleging that @PaulThomson and I are "trying to make Romans 1 say far more than it is."

I'd also ask you to clarify why you seem to be saying that what you're calling "Natural Revelation" is not divine revelation. Was "Natural Revelation" not revealed by the God and Creator of universe?

Rom 1:20 defines Natural Revelation.

Divine Revelation is NORMALLY, USUALLY thought of as the inspired Word of God. This is why many theologians pin a theological label unto this kind of revelation as Special Revelation. Whereas Natural Revelation (a phrase I personally prefer) is more commonly expressed by these same theologians as General Revelation -- which if memory serves you, very early on, used this latter phrase, did you not? So in using it, were you not making some kind of distinction between it and Special Revelation? What did you mean by "general revelation"

 

[Rufus]

So, to be clear, I'm in slavery? A natural man?

As Jesus would answer such a question: "You have said it."

As far as the rest of your windy tome goes, what part of Rom 1:20 don't you get?

And, yes, there are many spiritual lessons to be learned from Natural Revelation, but the Gospel per se isn't one of them. The Gospel isn't written in the constellations. But what the OT does so often and beautifully, especially in its prophetic or apocalyptic forms, is that the inspired writers draw parallels between this morally disordered, chaotic, sinful world and the natural created ORDER, which is typically represented by the sun, moon and stars.

Gotta run....

 

[studier]

And while I think of it, thanks to Mr. Studier

Welcome for whatever it is. I'm not reading your long narratives anymore, so this is a far as I got.

 

[studier]

Rom 1:20 defines Natural Revelation.

Divine Revelation is NORMALLY, USUALLY thought of as the inspired Word of God. This is why many theologians pin a theological label unto this kind of revelation as Special Revelation. Whereas Natural Revelation (a phrase I personally prefer) is more commonly expressed by these same theologians as General Revelation -- which if memory serves you, very early on, used this latter phrase, did you not? So in using it, were you not making some kind of distinction between it and Special Revelation? What did you mean by "general revelation"

Rom1:20 as I've gone over more than once, says more than what you're presenting.

Yes, I did use some theological constructs earlier. It can be a shortcut when all parties agree on what they represent. For our purposes, it's clear that it's a waste of time.

 

[studier]

As Jesus would answer such a question: "You have said it."

As far as the rest of your windy tome goes, what part of Rom 1:20 don't you get?

And, yes, there are many spiritual lessons to be learned from Natural Revelation, but the Gospel per se isn't one of them. The Gospel isn't written in the constellations. But what the OT does so often and beautifully, especially in its prophetic or apocalyptic forms, is that the inspired writers draw parallels between this morally disordered, chaotic, sinful world and the natural created ORDER, which is typically represented by the sun, moon and stars.

Gotta run....

Got it. So, now I'm not a Christian. And there we have the depths of this form of argumentation and this is not the first time I've seen it among those who share this systematic theology.

The additional insult fittingly refers to my post that was 80% Scripture that is all now brushed aside just as were the previously posted commands in Scripture to not insult one another inferring rather to imitate our Lord Jesus Christ who was the epitome of self-restraint.

The focus in Jeremiah, David's Psalm, and Paul's writing is God and what we learn about Him. When that is understood and that focus is retained, Romans 1 can be seen as less about men and more about God and what He's focused on bringing about as only He can, which is why Paul takes us back into God being the only Creator, with eternal power, divinity and perfectly righteous judgement.

Paul transitions from 1:1-1:17 directly into 1:18 because he's still talking about the focus of the Gospel which is quite a beautiful thing that fits right into God being the Creator and the Judge that all men get the opportunity to accept or to reject, just as they do what God is providing through His Gospel. Sadly for many, they choose to meet Him as their Judge...

 

[Genez]

There's no doubt that challenges strengthen. They also make weary. Productivity is [good] work after all. Imagine the capacities it takes to be feeding and pruning all the branches so they produce...

I found, if you have found a good pastor who teaches with depth and detail.
One able to genuinely exegete, and teach historical settings?

When these 'wrench in the gears' types show up in forums...
It makes the teachings you learn from such a pastor that much the more relevant and applicable, and appreciated.

Problem is.... There is such a prevalence weak teaching to be found today? That it makes the fakers feel confidence in
presenting their underhanded doctrines.

False doctrines they try out to see how effective they can be in neutralizing those not well taught.
There is no desire for truth. Its actually a power trip with those who teach false doctrine.
Its all about power...

grace and peace .......

 

[Genez]

There's no doubt that challenges strengthen. They also make weary. Productivity is [good] work after all. Imagine the capacities it takes to be feeding and pruning all the branches so they produce...

We can grow weary when our deficiencies are exposed, revealing where we need to concentrate to learn what is needed to fill up
our deficiency.

 

[studier]

We can grow weary when our deficiencies are exposed, revealing where we need to concentrate to learn what is needed to fill up
our deficiency.

Actually this weariness is in part old age...

 

[studier]

I found, if you have found a good pastor who teaches with depth and detail.
One able to genuinely exegete, and teach historical settings?

The issue in major part is different theological interpretations and how men flock to men and form clubs. Reformed also has some fine teachers.

These forums are an odd current day phenom and written argument is not the best IMO, especially when done on the fly.

BTW, I knew your Pastor and his son who carries on.