Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Rufus]

I agree completely. with that. But we were discussing what someone needs to be saved, not what one needs to do to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. By your theory, it sounds like all those who lived before the birth, death and resurrection of Christ needed to both have Jesus appear to them and have Jesus share with them what He was going to do to save the world. Otherwise how do you see them having a personal relationship with Christ. What do you believe pre-Jesus of Nazareth humans needed to experience in order to be saved?

The bare minimum as I understand it was to believe in the light they had been given. That is, whatever God had revealed to them they needed to embrace and acknowledge, and keep in their knowledge the God so revealed. that is what Romans 2 says.

Romans 1
0 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

A few things: First you and Mr. Studier are trying to make Romans 1 say far more than it is. The Gospel of Truth, by which men must be saved, is not revealed in Natural Revelation (NR). The Gospel is only revealed in Special (divine) Revelation. What is revealed in NR is what Paul explicitly says.

Secondly, you both keep ignoring the fact that even though God made some things about himself "plain" to men, the Natural Man's heart suppressed the truth because the Natural Man doesn't want to retain the one true God in his knowledge. In other words: Natural Man doesn't want to KNOW God! So, how is it possible for the unregenerate to believe in someone they hate and don't want to know!?
Biblical faith is a rational faith. Even natural faith in this world that is expressed on a horizontal level between people tells us this! We tend to trust only people we know. We instinctively don't trust strangers. This perverse, corrupt, dark, fallen world in which live, sir, does not operate on the Honor System. This is why we put locks on our doors, on our car ignitions, chains on our fences, passwords on sites that hold our sensitive information, why security guards are stationed in banks, why nations maintain standing armies to protect themselves, etc., etc. Trust among the sons of men is not exactly the world's strong suit.

Thirdly, man who doesn't want to retain God in their knowledge -- who doesn't want to know God -- has no understanding (v.31)! It's no wonder Paul, a couple of chapters later in his universal indictment of the fallen human race, said "No one understands"! Fallen man doesn't understand because he doesn't want to. "Free" will at work. "Free" will at its finest. Free TO...yet not Free FROM. So what does this make Natural Man? Well, according to Mr. Studier -- a staunch believer in free slaves -- he's as free as a slave. (It's absolutely incredible that people would rather believe in their own utterly absurd notions than in the Living Word of God.)

Finally, as pointed out recently from Jn 14:17, the Holy Spirit was always "with" the OT saints. The OT saints not only were guided by the Word but were also under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Of course, in this NC dispensation, God's people themselves have become his Temple by virtue of the gift of the indwelling Spirit.

 

[Rufus]

Let's look at Romans 7, remembering that the definition of "dead" , which you shoe-horn into selective verses to make them "teach" your doctrine, is "unable to hear, see, understand or do anything."

Rom. 7
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

According to your definition, Christians have become dead to the law: unable to hear, see, understand or do the law..

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

According to your definition, when Christians were previously living in the flesh, before regeneration, the law produced pathEma,, influencesvia sin to make them break the law.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

According to your definition, now the regenerate Christian cannot be influenced by the law because the law is now dead, so the law cannot see, hera, understand or do anything in the Christian's life.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The knowledge of sin came by hearing the law, nit by being conceived. Before we hear any moral law, there can be no awareness of sin.
,.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

According to your definition, without the law, sin had no abiltiy to see, hear, understand or do anything in my life.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Since sin had no power over me before the law came, I was not yet slain by the law, so I was spiritually alive without the law before the law enabled sin to kill me. It was only when the commandment cam that sin subsequently rose from its powerless death. According to your definition of dead, sin, being dead, could not raise itself from death. Only God can have raised the dead sin to life. So your definition of dead/death makes God the one who empowered sin to use the law to kill me. According to you God gave sin life and gave sin a weapon to kill me with.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

However, Paul says the law was decreed for life, nit for death. So, your definition creates a contradiction in God's word.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Had not God given life to dead sin, the law would not have become a weapon that dead sin could use. But according to your definition, of death, God awakened sin in order that I would become dead: unable to see, hear, understand or do anything spiritual that pertains to God.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, just, and good..

Paul says that the law is holy, just and good. But your definition But you have made it into a weapon God devised to deliberately render me deaf, blind and completely unable to do His will.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul refutes the logical entailments otf your definituon of dead. Sin was not dead by your definition, but dead by the general definition of separated from life.. Sin was not attached to my life before I sinned against they law. It was then that sin began to live parasitically, by commandeering parts of my my living body and mind. I let sin in. God did not put sin in me. God allowed it so that I might learn how despicable sin is out there and now also in here.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law set good goals for and limits onto society. But now that I have allowed sin to get into me, I find I am not wise or self-disciplined enough persistently refuse to obey sin's influence,.I am like a slave. I am intimidated by fears to do things that are against my will. And whatsoever I am obeying, to that I am being a slave.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The sin parasite acts like a computer virus, and hinders me from fulfilling my desires to consistently keep the moral laws I have been given.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Accoprding to your definition of dead, the unregenerate man given a moral law discovers that He can neither see, hear, understand or do anything spiritual pertaining to God.

But wait a minute. If he cannot see, hear, or understand anything pertaining to God, how does he know that he cannot see, herar, undestand or do anything spiritual pertaining to God? He cannot possible discover that spiritual truth. until God forst regenerates Him. But he does not ask, "Who has regenerated me and delivered me from this body of complete inability to see, hear, understand and do anything spiritual pertaining to God?"
he asks "Who will deliver me from the body of this complete inability to see, hear, understand and do anything spiritual pertaining to God?""

So, he is still unregenerate and dead when He cries out for deliverance from this insidious virus pervertingb His life.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Then he discovers the gospel, and how Jesus frees us from our separation

According to your definition, this must be about physical death, where the body cannot see, hear, understand or do anything at all. Dead mans dead. Right?
. But really it is deliverance from a physical body separated from God's life because the sin virus has infiltrated and sabotaged the body's ability to remain connected to God through submission to the spirit and soul of the unregenerate.man who has had his conscience activated by hearing and understanding some moral law..

Your special pleading reading of "spiritual death" and "spiritually dead" into the biblical revelation , if applied consistently,, creates this spaghetti of nonsensical doctrine.

You're totally without a clue! Rom 7:1 ff is analogy that Paul is making -- an analogy regarding the Law. The passage has nothing do to with the spiritual state of fallen mankind per se.

Rom 7:1
7:1 Do you not know, brothers — for I am speaking to men who know the law — that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?
NIV

Context really does matter.

 

[rogerg]

This is the challenge I place before you.

Please show us a way to make us forget what those two verses are saying.

I'm not going to get into a running debate with you on this, but until Rufus
has an opportunity to respond to you (which explanation I'm sure will illuminate far better than mine and which I do not want to preempt), nevertheless, in the interest of edification, I'll try make clear to you what I think those verses are saying:

1 Timothy 4:10That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Regarding 1 Tim 4:10, you are incorrectly assuming who the "all" (of the "all men") represent. You choose to view it through your own background and lens rather than turning back to the Bible (as it instructs us to do) to understand it through God's lens.
Therefore, the "all" does not represent everyone ever born, but instead, the "all" being all (everyone) whom the Father gives to the Son to be saved throughout time.
It would be a logical impossibility and a biblical schism should God on the one hand state that Christ is Saviour of everyone, yet on the other hand, state that only those whom He gives to Christ as their Saviour in order to save them - unless, that is, you happen to believe that everyone will become saved - which personally, I do not believe possible.
The "especially of those who believe" part of the verse, represents those who were already saved by Christ, with their belief a result of that salvation and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. IOW, two groups are represented in that verse: 1) all those who have been elected to salvation who will eventually be given to Christ to become saved by Christ, and 2), that portion of the elect who have already been given to Christ and have become saved, by which, they believe.

[Jhn 6:39 KJV] 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1 John 2:2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The "whole word" depicted by the verse, I believe, is the world to come, not this current world. This world will be destroyed by God.
Christ's kingdom on the other hand, is eternal, can never be destroyed, and is not this present world.

[Luk 18:30 KJV] 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

[Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[HeIsHere]

This is your poor assumption.

Everyone responds in some way to the Gospel. They either believe it or reject it. This isn't difficult to establish from scripture.

Can you show me a place in scripture where salvation occurred where the activity of God is not present?

The question is do those who respond positively (not a decision, persuaded by) the Gospel message do so only because God provided spiritual hearing to them first?

This seems to be your position, but if not you can clarify.

 

[HeIsHere]

THat's an awful theory, and not in the Bible.

Agree, not God of scripture.

 

[Cameron143]

The question is do those who respond positively (not a decision, persuaded by) the Gospel message do so only because God provided spiritual hearing to them first?

This seems to be your position, but if not you can clarify.

You are still conflating an enabling of God with persuasion. Individuals who have their nature changed choose as freely as those whose nature's are unaltered. They merely choose according to their new nature.
I do believe hearing is engendered in the new nature.

 

[HeIsHere]

You are still conflating an enabling of God with persuasion. Individuals who have their nature changed choose as freely as those whose nature's are unaltered. They merely choose according to their new nature.
I do believe hearing is engendered in the new nature.

We are making some gains, lol

So the power and truth inherent in the full and real Gospel message is not sufficient, God must enable hearing, have their nature changed first so a person is persuaded.
In your paradigm then without God the personal Gospel message in and of itself is meaningless gibberish to the natural man.

The natural man can believe all kinds of things, even other truth or some part of the truth, but he is unable to believe the reality of Christ Jesus and His purpose here on earth, complete rubbish to the natural man, even the natural man who has some understanding of God and Jesus and actually believes those to be realities but perhaps has not been given the full personal gospel message.
Nope, nope he cannot believe any further it is utter foolishness to him until his heart is changed.


@Cameron stated:
Everyone responds in some way to the Gospel. They either believe it or reject it.

So then I can understand you to mean that those who accept the Gospel were helped by God to accept, corrrect?

 

[studier]

A few things: First you and Mr. Studier are trying to make Romans 1 say far more than it is. The Gospel of Truth, by which men must be saved, is not revealed in Natural Revelation (NR). The Gospel is only revealed in Special (divine) Revelation. What is revealed in NR is what Paul explicitly says.

Firstly in looking at your entire post which I'm not yet quoting, I'm going to ask you & the rest of us to stop the insults. I'll use the NIV for your benefit and because it picks up this sense of the word:

NIV 1 Peter 2:23 When they hurled their insults at him (Jesus Christ), he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

NIV 1Peter 3:8-12 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10 For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep their tongue from evil and their lips from deceitful speech. 11 They must turn from evil and do good; they must seek peace and pursue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

NIV 1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer (same word), a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

NIV 1 Cor 6:9-11 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers (same word) nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[studier]

A few things: First you and Mr. Studier are trying to make Romans 1 say far more than it is. The Gospel of Truth, by which men must be saved, is not revealed in Natural Revelation (NR). The Gospel is only revealed in Special (divine) Revelation. What is revealed in NR is what Paul explicitly says.

Next I'm going to ask you to stop the straw-man activities. I most certainly have not ever said that the Gospel is what you're calling Natural Revelation. Nor have I seen @PaulThomson say such a thing.

There are some things to discuss in this regard due to the close context in Rom1 of Paul talking about the Gospel and what you're calling Natural Revelation.

 

[Rufus]

1 Timothy 4:10​

​

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the ​

living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." ​

​

1 John 2:2​

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.​

Now, Rufus?

This is the challenge I place before you.

Please show us a way to make us forget what those two verses are saying.

I don't want you or anyone else to forget; but only to understand rightly!

I have already analyzed 1Jn 2:2 previously. I would refer you to my 2092, and even to my introductory post which explains the highly important hermeneutical principle of Original Audience in 2091, and why we need to use this principle to rightly understand scripture.

As far as 1Tim 4:10, you ignore the qualifying phrase in the text: "especially those of who believe". That qualifies "all" as to be understood in the limited sense.

So, let me quickly run through this for passage for you. Audience - Timothy. Timoty had a Gentile father and Jewish mother; therefore, Jews themseles would have considered him to be Jewish, as I would think his own mother did, as well as Timothy himself.

As a Jew, Paul is affirming to Timothy that Jesus is also the Savior of the Gentiles, hence the phrase "all men" -- not just the Jews. I say this because of the way Jews understood their relationship to the "world", i.e. to the [Gentile] nations. Timothy very likely had that mindset instilled into him by his mother. The Jews never thought of themselves as being related to the nations of the word. They thought of themselves as the chosen, covenant, provileged people of God whereas the other nations were profane, unclean, uncircumcised, etc. Now...while Timothy very likely had this mindset, Paul's choice of words here does leave the possibility open that he was telling his disciple that God [in Jesus] IS the Savior of Jews AND Gentiles, i.e. "all men" as understood, for example, in Rev 5:9.

Now, most people -- most especially NR -- gloss over the verb "IS" and just read into the text what they think Paul is saying, i.e. that God is the wanna be Savior of all men who will come to believe. God is the potential or possible Savior of all men. Paul didn't say any of those things. Paul said God IS (actually, right now, currently) the Savior of all men who [right now, currently] believe. That's why Paul tacked on the qualifying phrase at the end. And what I have just bolded does not change the sense of the passage one iota! In fact, it also harmonzies with all of scripture!

My interpretation squares very well with the larger context of the bible. For example, did Jesus pray for "all men" in the distributive sense in John 17? Absoltuely NOT! Yet...he did specifically pray for both his flocks, didn't he? In other words, he prayed for all those who would come to believe on him! He prayed for his Father's elect. He prayer, too, squares quite nicely with Rev 5:9.

Or what about the fact that Jesus himself said that he did not come to "save" all!? Did he not teach that he did not come to call the righteous but sinners (Mk 2:17). But wouldn't "all men" in the distributive sense have to consist of the righteous and sinners!? And if you object that His call isn't necessary to salvation, then I would refer you to Rom 8:30 and strongly exhort to pay close attention to the logical order of terms used therein. God's call precedes justification. Therefore, if Jesus did not come to effectually call "all" men in the distributive sense, then how in the world can it logically be said of him that he is still, nonetheless, the Savior of all in the distributive sense?

Then we should consider another highly important fact that is often overlooked. After Jesus rose from the dead, he appeared only to his own! If He came to save all men -- if indeed He IS actually the Savior of each and every person on earth -- if this indeed has always been the eternal plan, purpose and intention of the Father -- then why didn't He go to Jerusalem and publicly show himself to all!? Why didn't he just waltz into Temple, and basically say..."Didn't I tell you that if you destroyed this temple of mine, I would raise it up in three days? Now, one and all, come and believe on me. Come, 'Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put into my side. Stop doubting and believe'?" But no! He appeared only to the people for whom he prayed in John 17.

Context, context, context! It truly matters. It also matters that when you read any given passage that you check your presuppositonal baggage in at the counter and leave it behind! You must make a concerted, conscious effort to avoid reading your preconceived notions into a text, thereby adding words to the text. You must also learn to compare scripture with scripture, as i have just done. God never lies; whereas ALL MEN ARE LIARS (Ps 116:11). And this passage you can take in the universal sense! I will leave you with this final word of wisdom:

Prov 30:6
6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
NIV

P.S. I see your three cups and raise you three more: +

 

[Cameron143]

We are making some gains, lol

So the power and truth inherent in the full and real Gospel message is not sufficient, God must enable hearing, have their nature changed first so a person is persuaded.
In your paradigm then without God the personal Gospel message in and of itself is meaningless gibberish to the natural man.

The natural man can believe all kinds of things, even other truth or some part of the truth, but he is unable to believe the reality of Christ Jesus and His purpose here on earth, complete rubbish to the natural man, even the natural man who has some understanding of God and Jesus and actually believes those to be realities but perhaps has not been given the full personal gospel message.
Nope, nope he cannot believe any further it is utter foolishness to him until his heart is changed.


@Cameron stated:
Everyone responds in some way to the Gospel. They either believe it or reject it.

So then I can understand you to mean that those who accept the Gospel were helped by God to accept, corrrect?

You continue to make assumptions about what I write. I never said the gospel is gibberish. I, in fact, said the opposite. But man is born from above by water and the Spirit. The water is the gospel. But the word of God isn't working alone in salvation. The Spirit is present and working also.
So yes, I do believe God helps or enables those who come to faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Rufus]

Firstly in looking at your entire post which I'm not yet quoting, I'm going to ask you & the rest of us to stop the insults. I'll use the NIV for your benefit and because it picks up this sense of the word:

NIV 1 Peter 2:23 When they hurled their insults at him (Jesus Christ), he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

NIV 1Peter 3:8-12 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10 For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep their tongue from evil and their lips from deceitful speech. 11 They must turn from evil and do good; they must seek peace and pursue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

NIV 1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer (same word), a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

NIV 1 Cor 6:9-11 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers (same word) nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Contradictions are always absurd. And for this I make no apology.

 

[studier]

A few things: First you and Mr. Studier are trying to make Romans 1 say far more than it is. The Gospel of Truth, by which men must be saved, is not revealed in Natural Revelation (NR). The Gospel is only revealed in Special (divine) Revelation. What is revealed in NR is what Paul explicitly says.

Now I'm going to ask you to define your terminology. What exactly is "Natural Revelation"? You took issue with my using a very common theological construct - "God Consciousness" - used to refer to this section of Scripture. So, if we're going to use your terminology, then let's see if we can agree on what it means.

So, what is "Natural Revelation"? I'd ask you to refer to Romans 1 and use Scripture as you explain it, since you're alleging that @PaulThomson and I are "trying to make Romans 1 say far more than it is."

I'd also ask you to clarify why you seem to be saying that what you're calling "Natural Revelation" is not divine revelation. Was "Natural Revelation" not revealed by the God and Creator of universe?

 

[Genez]

In a discussion with a friend in seminary, he once started with, "where does a thought come from?"

I was listening to a guy recently who by no means professes Christ, but through a lot of introspection he had come to the point of realizing that the best version of himself is found in not taking the advice of his first 4-5 thoughts. When you understand this about him, it's fascinating to watch his delayed processes in discussions at times.

After my salvation, in retrospect, I saw how God's quiet, gentle mighty hand, had been working in my mind giving me thoughts to consider. Consider as to what I thought about them,, and, given dreams that later revealed to me that not only God knows the future, but also showed me with one dream what my reaction would be once I realized what had just happened to me in real time I had a dream about. It was a real soul stunner. I sensed something supernatural was surely afoot, but being a Jew at that time, never allowed me to make the connection.

grace and peace .........

 

[studier]

Contradictions are always absurd. And for this I make no apology.

IOW, you could care less what we're commanded to do in imitation of our Lord. And you're then going to assert that you're protecting the Word?

 

[studier]

the Natural Man's heart suppressed the truth because the Natural Man doesn't want to retain the one true God in his knowledge. In other words: Natural Man doesn't want to KNOW God! So, how is it possible for the unregenerate to believe in someone they hate and don't want to know!?

This looks like the 'natural man" from 1Cor2:14 is the man Paul is speaking of in Rom1 who, as you put it, "doesn't want to retain the one true God in his knowledge."

Were the Jews among the "natural man" who didn't want to retain the one true God in his knowledge"?

Finally, as pointed out recently from Jn 14:17, the Holy Spirit was always "with" the OT saints. The OT saints not only were guided by the Word but were also under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

John 14:17 is speaking of (1) all Jews as "OT saints" or (2) Jews who were "under the influence of the Holy Spirit" and thus not "natural man" and thus = "OT saints" or (3) Jesus' disciples He is talking to in John 14:17 and they are "OT saints" or ?????

Who are the "OT saints" under the influence of the Holy Spirit?

Putting together the two quotes of what you said, the "OT saints" "under the influence of the Holy Spirit" were not "Natural Man"? Were they regenerate pre-Christ?

 

[studier]

It was a real soul stunner.

I've been there too. Many of us probably have.

 

[Rufus]

Next I'm going to ask you to stop the straw-man activities. I most certainly have not ever said that the Gospel is what you're calling Natural Revelation. Nor have I seen @PaulThomson say such a thing.

There are some things to discuss in this regard due to the close context in Rom1 of Paul talking about the Gospel and what you're calling Natural Revelation.

But Natural Revelation is the concept taught in Romans 1:18ff. The topic of this passager is God's external creation -- from what has been made -- not his divine Special Revalation. Furthermore, the concept is clealy taught in the OT, as well! No straw men Just plain truth that you don't want to see.

There's none so blind who will not [freely] see. And methinks this has something to do with slavery.

 

[Genez]

Most Christians would benefit from such a process to make certain they know who and what they are listening to.

If you want to lay out the Scriptures, I'll look at them.

I will lay out some for you.... (keeping it simple)

I said...
Likewise... By means of the Holy Spirit's power (God's grace) God places the dead unbeliever on life
support while drawing him. In doing do, forces life to manifest where it would not normally be seen.

​

Ephesians 2:1-3​

​

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked ​

according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the ​

spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ​

ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were ​

by nature children of wrath, just as the others.​

God takes up the slack for the lack of regeneration and allows a human soul to bypass the flesh.
In that state (all mentality level) a soul will be shown thoughts to consider in the privacy of his own mind.
It private and the person simply thinks he is having a thought of his own, which gives him total freedom to
quietly consider what he thinks of a matter God is presenting.

Ephesians 2:1-3​

​

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked ​

according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the ​

spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ​

ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and ​

were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.​

​

God even demonstrates that ability with even the born again Christian!

We are as a dead man in regards to the life power we must live in to serve Christ!
The Spirit keeps us alive in our mind and heart... spiritually,
as the Spirit CONTROLS our flesh, as to not allow the flesh to rule over our soul as it had done before regeneration!

In other words? Our old self is dead. The new life in Christ has taken over if we walk in Spirit and truth.

​

Romans 8:9​

​

You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. ​

And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.​

For we have been crucified with Christ! Dead!

Galatians 2:20​

​

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. ​

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me ​

and gave himself for me.​

Our body is dead in our walk as far as God is concerned.
And, the life we now live? Its to be in in Christ (the Word of God!).. Faith!
That Faith? He is the Word (John 1:1) being understood, in the growing believer.

The Holy Spirit is the power for our life to live that Word =- faith.
The more accurate, sound doctrine we gain, and understand?
The more our inner man in our thinking will reflect the Image of Christ!!!

2 Corinthians 3:18​

​

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, ​

are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, ​

which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.​

I have no qualms about it. All the hot shots who come here who think their clever thinking is going to throw a wrench
in our gears are the real losers. For in spite of themselves having such arrogance? God is still supplying the needed thinking
they lack by the positive believer. Which response God could have used to bring them to further into maturity.

And, ahh?

What the loser refuses to heed others reading later can benefit from and grow by.
So even losers help the winners to be growing in knowledge by grace!

I believe God will smile and wink when someone arrogant thinks he can hoodwink a believer.
For, God will use the loser's attack on the positive believer and its counter response, to make
someone who is positive to be made stronger when reading the responses to the attack.
Thus, learning a way to overcome that evil.

Romans 8:37​

​

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.​

​

Romans 8:28​

​

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, ​

who have been called according to his purpose."​

​

There we have it.

New motto should be?

"Stay Humble."
Remain teachable..
And God will stay with you."

grace and peace ................

 

[Rufus]

This looks like the 'natural man" from 1Cor2:14 is the man Paul is speaking of in Rom1 who, as you put it, "doesn't want to retain the one true God in his knowledge."

Were the Jews among the "natural man" who didn't want to retain the one true God in his knowledge"?



John 14:17 is speaking of (1) all Jews as "OT saints" or (2) Jews who were "under the influence of the Holy Spirit" and thus not "natural man" and thus = "OT saints" or (3) Jesus' disciples He is talking to in John 14:17 and they are "OT saints" or ?????

Who are the "OT saints" under the influence of the Holy Spirit?

Putting together the two quotes of what you said, the "OT saints" "under the influence of the Holy Spirit" were not "Natural Man"? Were they regenerate pre-Christ?

I would primarly choose Door #1 since Christ was talking to his OT saints (his disciples) about an upcoming change that would come about shortly after Jesus ratified the NC in his blood. Of course, the Holy Spirit was active with the non-elect in the OT, as well, such as Adam, Saul, Balaam, etc. to accomplsh the Father's purposes.

Christ's OT saints were all believers who believed in Him prior to the Cross and did not survive the Cross. That would be Joseph, his "father", John the Baptist, etc.

Whether or not OT saints were "regenerated" or not is not entirely clear. However, Adam most certainly was! But as for the OT saints, you'd have to take that up with King David who prayed that God would not take his Spirit from him. Also, I have to think the Spirit of God played no small role in Peter's confession of faith, since Jesus clearly told him that his saving knowldedge did not come from below -- from any mere mortal.