Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[FollowerofShiloh]

But God was compassionate and merciful to Moses since He granted his servant his request. Did Moses force God to what he asked?

God granted Moses' desire.
And how Paul is using it for God's Sovereignty when it was only applied towards Moses' request.

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="FollowerofShiloh, post: 5287300, member: 328825"]Jesus said whosoever could believe.
And the Reformed take the words of Paul's predestination and turn Jesus words into only the saved is whosoever.
So the Reformed changed the Words of Jesus to match Paul when it should be the OTHER WAY around.[/QUOTE]

No, Jesus did not say that. Besides, saving FAITH is a sovereign, gracious gift of God. So how would the recipients of such a gift be unable to believe?

 

[Rufus]

Heck...I don't think I've been here two months. So...give me a chance to catch up.

Sure. Happy laughing. But I don't think the Don Rickles approach will work these days. So maybe follow Clint Eastwood's advice...improvise, adapt, overcome.[/QUOTE]

We'll see. I'm famously known (in some circles) for swimming against the conventional wisdom. Look at the conventional worldly wisdom that prevails within the Church? It's no wonder the Church is a mess. Yet, I subscribe to none of it! Thanks be to God!

 

[Cameron143]

Sure. Happy laughing. But I don't think the Don Rickles approach will work these days. So maybe follow Clint Eastwood's advice...improvise, adapt, overcome.

We'll see. I'm famously known (in some circles) for swimming against the conventional wisdom. Look at the conventional worldly wisdom that prevails within the Church? It's no wonder the Church is a mess. Yet, I subscribe to none of it! Thanks be to God![/QUOTE]
You obviously are following Dory's advice from Finding Nemo...keep on swimming, keep on swimming...

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Then how come you can't believe Jesus when he tells for whom he died (Mat 26:28; Mk 14:24; Lk 22:19)? How do you get "many" or "you" to = each and every person in the world?

Luke 22:19 is singular, Jesus is addressing the Disciples.

19 And having taken bread and given thanks, he broke and gave to them, saying: This is my body, that is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


And Matthew/Mark are "Adj-GMP" which is an adjective not signifying anything specific.

 

[Rufus]

God granted Moses' desire.
And how Paul is using it for God's Sovereignty when it was only applied towards Moses' request.

Well, that how God portrayed his sovereignty with Moses. I WILL HAVE MERCY...I WILL HAVE COMPASSION...on whomever I desire. Are you inferring that God does not have the right to be merciful or compassionate on whomsoever he desires? Or are you inferring that his creatures have the right to demand his mercy and compassion?

Also, when you object to Paul's teachings, you cast aspersion on the authority of his apostleship and on the authority of the inspired Word of God. You seem to be implying that Paul was a run-away freight train and did his own thing with scripture to suit his own personal agenda. He's not to be trusted? Or we have to take everything he writes with a big grain of salt?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

[QUOTE="FollowerofShiloh, post: 5287300, member: 328825"]Jesus said whosoever could believe.
And the Reformed take the words of Paul's predestination and turn Jesus words into only the saved is whosoever.
So the Reformed changed the Words of Jesus to match Paul when it should be the OTHER WAY around.

No, Jesus did not say that. Besides, saving FAITH is a sovereign, gracious gift of God. So how would the recipients of such a gift be unable to believe?

He most certainly did say that.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him might not perish, but have life eternal.

 

[Rufus]

We'll see. I'm famously known (in some circles) for swimming against the conventional wisdom. Look at the conventional worldly wisdom that prevails within the Church? It's no wonder the Church is a mess. Yet, I subscribe to none of it! Thanks be to God!

You obviously are following Dory's advice from Finding Nemo...keep on swimming, keep on swimming...[/QUOTE]

Well...my "keep on swimming, keep on swimming" is Paul's run the race. I just run it differently than the world does.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Well, that how God portrayed his sovereignty with Moses. I WILL HAVE MERCY...I WILL HAVE COMPASSION...on whomever I desire. Are you inferring that God does not have the right to be merciful or compassionate on whomsoever he desires? Or are you inferring that his creatures have the right to demand his mercy and compassion?

Also, when you object to Paul's teachings, you cast aspersion on the authority of his apostleship and on the authority of the inspired Word of God. You seem to be implying that Paul was a run-away freight train and did his own thing with scripture to suit his own personal agenda. He's not to be trusted? Or we have to take everything he writes with a big grain of salt?

LOL
God granted Moses request.

But Paul is using like no one is requesting but God is just doing, which is total opposite of the scenario with Moses.

 

[Rufus]

No, Jesus did not say that. Besides, saving FAITH is a sovereign, gracious gift of God. So how would the recipients of such a gift be unable to believe?

He most certainly did say that.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him might not perish, but have life eternal.[/QUOTE]

You added the world "COULD" remember? In fact, there's no ability in sight in this passage; for one COULD believe as a result of supernatural intervention. John is simply stating a fact, saying nothing whatsoever about HOW belief actually occurs.

 

[Rufus]

LOL
God granted Moses request.

But Paul is using like no one is requesting but God is just doing, which is total opposite of the scenario with Moses.

Well, God does very many things without anyone asking! So what is your point? When Jesus sovereignly chose his disciples, did he ask them for their permission first? Or did he require them to ask him for permission to join his club? Or when God chose to have a special covenant relationship with Israel, did Abraham ask God first?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You added the world "COULD" remember? In fact, there's no ability in sight in this passage; for one COULD believe as a result of supernatural intervention. John is simply stating a fact, saying nothing whatsoever about HOW belief actually occurs.

Yep, good catch and want to keep to the exactness of the scripture

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Well, God does very many things without anyone asking! So what is your point? When Jesus sovereignly chose his disciples, did he ask them for their permission first? Or did he require them to ask him for permission to join his club? Or when God chose to have a special covenant relationship with Israel, did Abraham ask God first?

Agreed!
God does not have to ask anyone anything.
Paul specifically used Moses.
But the example with Moses is nothing like what Paul is saying.

 

[Rufus]

Luke 22:19 is singular, Jesus is addressing the Disciples.

19 And having taken bread and given thanks, he broke and gave to them, saying: This is my body, that is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.


And Matthew/Mark are "Adj-GMP" which is an adjective not signifying anything specific.

 

[Rufus]

Luke 22:19 is singular, Jesus is addressing the Disciples.

Such deep insight. Thanks. So...by extension he was addressing all disciples of all generations. Not each and every person in the world. (See ICor 15). Also, see John 17.

19 And having taken bread and given thanks, he broke and gave to them, saying: This is my body, that is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

And Matthew/Mark are "Adj-GMP" which is an adjective not signifying anything specific.

So, you just admitted that he didn't say specifically every single person on the planet. (We're making progress.) You also just conceded that "polus" is most likely a large but indefinite number. But again, it certainly isn't each and every person in the world. And this is why he explicitly excluded the world in his prayer in Jn 17:9. He excluded them because he never died for all men in the distributive sense.

 

[NOV25]

for the Unjust/Nonelect/Unsaved whose names are not written in The Book of Life?

Revelation 21:27
There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb

Depends on who you ask, a Calvinist or an Arminian, a monergist or a synergist 😂

 

[Rufus]

Agreed!
God does not have to ask anyone anything.
Paul specifically used Moses.
But the example with Moses is nothing like what Paul is saying.[/QUOTE]

How on this little green planet did you ever get such a misguided notion in your head that when an author of one work quotes something from another author that the first author must use the quote the same way the original author did? Have you never heard of literary license? Why would Paul, writing to a different audience under different circumstances and in a different historical context, use a borrowed passage in the same way the original writer did? Secular writers take this kind of license all the time in the real world, and so did NT writers. Paul and Moses, as an example, had very different reasons and purposes for writing what they did to their respective audiences, so it stands to reason that Paul would apply or use a passage differently from the original writer because Paul's occasion for writing differed dramatically from Moses'.

If you ever owned a Study Bible, the Editor of the bible in the introductory pages to each book would give his readers certain basic, generic, historical information relative to the specific book under consideration, such as Title and Author, Date and Occasion, Genre, Literary Features, Characteristics and Primary Themes, etc. All this information, naturally, varies from one writer to the next, and even from the same writer of a different book to a different audience.

Your misguided, naive objection to the kind of aforementioned differences that naturally inhere in writers' works, therefore, is another one of your very lame straw men.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Such deep insight. Thanks. So...by extension he was addressing all disciples of all generations. Not each and every person in the world. (See ICor 15). Also, see John 17.

We are addressing whosoever even though He died for the world

So, you just admitted that he didn't say specifically every single person on the planet. (We're making progress.) You also just conceded that "polus" is most likely a large but indefinite number. But again, it certainly isn't each and every person in the world. And this is why he explicitly excluded the world in his prayer in Jn 17:9. He excluded them because he never died for all men in the distributive sense.

We are addressing whosoever even though He died for the world

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

How on this little green planet did you ever get such a misguided notion in your head that when an author of one work quotes something from another author that the first author must use the quote the same way the original author did? Have you never heard of literary license? Why would Paul, writing to a different audience under different circumstances and in a different historical context, use a borrowed passage in the same way the original writer did? Secular writers take this kind of license all the time in the real world, and so did NT writers. Paul and Moses, as an example, had very different reasons and purposes for writing what they did to their respective audiences, so it stands to reason that Paul would apply or use a passage differently from the original writer because Paul's occasion for writing differed dramatically from Moses'.

If you ever owned a Study Bible, the Editor of the bible in the introductory pages to each book would give his readers certain basic, generic, historical information relative to the specific book under consideration, such as Title and Author, Date and Occasion, Genre, Literary Features, Characteristics and Primary Themes, etc. All this information, naturally, varies from one writer to the next, and even from the same writer of a different book to a different audience.

Your misguided, naive objection to the kind of aforementioned differences that naturally inhere in writers' works, therefore, is another one of your very lame straw men.

Paul specifically uses the phrase "For He says to Moses."
That's a reference point to go back to the Torah and read what happened in that conversation.
But what happened with Moses is not how Paul is using it in Romans.

It's like saying to someone thirsty.
There's water over there.
And when they get there it's just a single drop of water every 20 seconds.
Oh, there is water there, but nothing to quench someone's thirst.

 

[Rufus]

We are addressing whosoever even though He died for the world

We are addressing whosoever even though He died for the world

Yes, Jesus died for Gentile nations ("whole world") -- just not for each and every person in those nations. As many language scholars attest, the term "world" is often used in a spiritual sense. We should rightly understand this term often in that sense to mean two groups. We should often understand "world" in the same way Paul understood two different Israels in Rom 9. Christ died for all the "whosoevers" in the Gentile nations, and not for anyone else.