Church Doctrine VS. God's Word

[ForestGreenCook]

Refusing to believe Jesus is not without consequence. (John 12:48)

• He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And in the case of water baptism, scripture references that obedience to it in the name of the Lord Jesus is for remission of one's sin in accordance with Jesus' sacrifice. (Acts 2:1-39, Acts 22:16) Jesus' sacrifice made this possible for all of mankind. All have the opportunity to receive what Jesus died to provide, but not all will. For straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few will find it. But broad is the gate that leads to destruction and many are going that way. (Matthew 7)

Keep in mind that Jesus never said, get baptized after you are saved. He specifically stated, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved:
"...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Obedience to water baptism is an essential part of the gospel message. (Mark 1:1-5, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

Jesus's sacrifice, for the remission of sins for those that God gave to him, was not an offering to mankind, for mankind's acceptance, but was an offering to God, for God's acceptance. Jesus was not offering eternal deliverance for all of mankind to accept, but was the security of eternal inheritance for those that his Father gave him.

This knowledge of what Jesus had accomplished on the cross was given by the righteousness of God to the "remnant" of Israel (Jacob's name was changed by God to be called Israel - Gen 32:28), and the rest of God's born again children were blinded to this truth.

In Matthew seven, those who go into the straight gate, that leads to the abundant life that they receive here on earth, are the remnant, and those that go into the wide gate are the children of God that are blinded to the truth, and are preaching, and teaching the false doctrine of eternal deliverance by good works. The destruction is the false doctrine.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That didn't happen to me. Instead, and with my hair still wet from being dunked, I proceeded to cross the street and steal a bag of rubberbands for my paper-route. I was 12 years old and should have never been baptized. I didn't Truly believe in Jesus . . . at . . . all. Now, if the "church" actually taught Colossians 2:9-15, then and perhaps, I might have understood the Gospel and perhaps I would have Truly Believed in the Work that renders a person to be a True Christian.

I truly understand. I believe that a lot of, born again, young children, are baptised without the knowledge of what baptism stands for, however, I do believe that young children become aware of the knowledge of the teaching of Christ's doctrine, the same way that us adults do, and that is by the revelation of the Holy Spirit within all who are born again.

 

[Dirtman]

That didn't happen to me. Instead, and with my hair still wet from being dunked, I proceeded to cross the street and steal a bag of rubberbands for my paper-route. I was 12 years old and should have never been baptized. I didn't Truly believe in Jesus . . . at . . . all. Now, if the "church" actually taught Colossians 2:9-15, then and perhaps, I might have understood the Gospel and perhaps I would have Truly Believed in the Work that renders a person to be a True Christian.

I totally disagree. When Peter baptized in acts he preached and then said get up everyone of you and be baptized. Not now if y'all can live good enough for a few years I'll baptize ya.

 

[Thewatchman]

Ok, maybe read it again. Because it is just a matter of simple reading comprehension.
He took passages that speak about the efficacy of baptism and then he compared them to passages not about baptism and came to the conclusion, (quote) " no baptism needed".
He used passages not about baptism to cancel out the passages about baptism.
Rather than to harmonize those passages.

He also used contrapositive logic on this passage (I'll copy and paste it so it's not changed). "Then you have Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Some will say Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved they forget the second part of the verse;He that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is not involved in being damned so why should it be a requirement for salvation."

He used one half of a statement here and used it to cancel the other half. In some terrible logic. The reason baptism isnt mentioned in the second half pf the statement os because those who dont believe dont get baptized. To harmonize and understand the statement here it is to use simple reading comprehension. Baptism becomes the outcome or product of believing. One who believes would then naturally be baptized and one who does jot believe would therefore not be baptized. And having not believed and subsequently therefore by default also not be baptized is condemned already.

So you use some scripture to cancel out other scripture rather than to harmonize them together. Seems a dangerous approach to scripture to me.

Dirtman: I am sorry that I did not make myself clear and that I made you thank I was putting one part of verse against the other. Here is the passage. Jesus has been risen He is with the 11 and He tells them this:

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I want to focus on verse 16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; He that believeth not shall be damned. The point I was pointing out in this verse is the second half how come “He that believeth not shall be dammed” baptism is not a requirement to be damned so is it a requirement to be saved? Are you trying to say that if I follow Romans 8:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. That I am not saved. Notice Romans 8 does not have the words baptism, baptized, . . . or anything to do with it in the whole chapter.

 

[Dirtman]

Dirtman: I am sorry that I did not make myself clear and that I made you thank I was putting one part of verse against the other. Here is the passage. Jesus has been risen He is with the 11 and He tells them this:

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I want to focus on verse 16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; He that believeth not shall be damned. The point I was pointing out in this verse is the second half how come “He that believeth not shall be dammed” baptism is not a requirement to be damned so is it a requirement to be saved? Are you trying to say that if I follow Romans 8:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. That I am not saved. Notice Romans 8 does not have the words baptism, baptized, . . . or anything to do with it in the whole chapter.

So other verses do, and the only way to reconcile passages that do talk about baptism and those that dont is in light of the words of Jesus. If one believes and is baptised he will be saved and if one believes not he is already condemned.
Baptism and believing go hand in hand. If one believes he will be baptised. If not the he wont be baptized.

 

[Wansvic]

I made a thread about this once. Baptism seems to be closely linked to resurrection in a number of passages and not in a symbolic way. Would you agree with that?

Romans 6:3-6 points out that those who are baptized have been baptized into Jesus' death. Paul's statement indicates that people who have not been baptized have not become associated with Jesus' death. Paul continues by stating that "IF" a person is baptized into the likeness of Jesus' death they will also be in the likeness of His resurrection. This pertains to being resurrected unto life eternal as demonstrated by Jesus' resurrection.

 

[Wansvic]

Rom 6:3-4, does not refer to eternal salvation

If not eternal salvation, what do you think is meant by being in the likeness of Jesus' resurrection?

 

[Wansvic]

We should be baptised "because of the remission of sins" by Jesus's death on the cross. Baptism is an answer of a good conscience toward God. There is a deliverance from our guilty conscience when we are baptised, but it is not the cause of our eternal deliverance.

Many agree with you. However, the scripture does not say because of, it says for the remission of sin. If what you say is correct why did Ananias tell Paul to do it to wash away his sins? Acts 22:16

 

[Wansvic]

You have 2 verses which appear to disprove that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ, but instead is by faith in water baptism.
My United Church of Christ neighbors have tried to "correct" me about my misplaced faith in Christ alone, many times.

When I read a verse or two that seems to mean one thing and a hundred others that say something totally different, there must be a misunderstanding because the Bible is always correct.
Since you showed me two verses apparently about water baptism, should we throw out the entire gospel of John? Guess how many times it uses the word believe with no requirements for works like baptism?

Having faith in Jesus is what brings about the reality of one's sins being remitted upon obedience to the command. If you will recall Jesus stated that he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Mark 16:15-16.

 

[CS1]

I want to thank you to for your commits

CS1

I do understand that doctrine = teaching. The problem is that there some out there teaching 2+2=4 then there are others out there that teach 2+2=5. Just like baptism it is not a requirement for salvation. Then you have churches out there that say you must be baptized in order to be saved but that is not what the bible says.There are churches out there that say a divorced person can not be a pastor or elder but what does the bible say?

Jeremiah 3:6-8

6The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. 7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

I think that you should maybe be more specific about the teachings you have issues with.

As far as a " church " saying, "a divorced person can not be a pastor or elder, but what does the bible say? "


As the example you used is not a doctrine, is it a standard of that assembly. They don't want to have Pastors who knew Jesus at the time of their divorce service as a Pastor. To me, that is not said in the word of God; "divorced pastors cannot be a pastor."
but

The word of God in Titus 1:6-9

6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

The standard is very clear. Yet the bible doesn't address gay pastors or transgender in the church; however, it can apply that which is praiseworthy and appropriate for the times.


Many do not agree with the standard that you cannot pastor if you have been divorced. I, for one, do AGREE WITH IT BECAUSE

As God intended it to be, the family unit is under attack, and the church has been too wimpish on the family unit. Yet there are other fellowships that allow men & women to pastor who have been divorced.

 

[Wansvic]

The Word Brings Salvation
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Faith does come from hearing the word of God. An example of this is seen in the gospel message initially given on the Day of Pentecost. Upon hearing the word of God the people believed the message and placed their trust in Jesus as seen in their willingness to repent, and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in order for their personal sin to be remitted. The listeners understood that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection was what opened the way to eternal salvation for everyone who would believe and obey.

Belief and obedience = Faith perfected. (James 2:22)

Jesus became the author of eternal salvation unto all those who obey Him. (Heb. 5:9) And Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:15-16)

 

[Wansvic]

Jesus's sacrifice, for the remission of sins for those that God gave to him, was not an offering to mankind, for mankind's acceptance, but was an offering to God, for God's acceptance. Jesus was not offering eternal deliverance for all of mankind to accept, but was the security of eternal inheritance for those that his Father gave him.

This knowledge of what Jesus had accomplished on the cross was given by the righteousness of God to the "remnant" of Israel (Jacob's name was changed by God to be called Israel - Gen 32:28), and the rest of God's born again children were blinded to this truth.

In Matthew seven, those who go into the straight gate, that leads to the abundant life that they receive here on earth, are the remnant, and those that go into the wide gate are the children of God that are blinded to the truth, and are preaching, and teaching the false doctrine of eternal deliverance by good works. The destruction is the false doctrine.

Obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is a required part of one's spiritual rebirth as referenced within scripture. (Mark 16:15-16, John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

As to what is recorded in Matthew chapter 7; such as, few will find the way that leads to life, and some hearing the dreaded words, I never knew you, they are the direct result of disobedience by those neglecting to lay a proper foundation:

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, (Jesus) and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matt. 7:24-27)


Consider what the bible says pertain to the foundation: "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." (Heb 6:1-2) After the foundation is laid it is not necessary to repeat the steps again as indicated in the scripture. After receiving one's spiritual rebirth (being born of water and Spirit) what an individual does to build upon the foundation will not be swept away. But will provide a reward to the individual in the day of judgement.

Acts chapter 2 explains what is necessary to lay a proper foundation: Believers of the gospel message of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection turn to God through repentance, submit to being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin and receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost. If one does not spontaneously receive the Holy Ghost, Jesus said to ask for the Holy Ghost; it is a gift. (Luke 11:13)

 

[Thewatchman]

Faith does come from hearing the word of God. An example of this is seen in the gospel message initially given on the Day of Pentecost. Upon hearing the word of God the people believed the message and placed their trust in Jesus as seen in their willingness to repent, and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in order for their personal sin to be remitted. The listeners understood that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection was what opened the way to eternal salvation for everyone who would believe and obey.

Belief and obedience = Faith perfected. (James 2:22)

Jesus became the author of eternal salvation unto all those who obey Him. (Heb. 5:9) And Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:15-16)

Verses 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16.He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

You and I may be on the same page I am not sure. You notice the last half of that verse 16 says “But he that believeth not shall be damned.” If salvation is by believing and being baptized how come you are damned by just not believing.

I got saved on board ship there was no place to be baptized and the Christians I was studding with said they did baptism 2-3 times a year. There was an importance put on it they made sure I know that when we had the opportunity I should get baptized, but that it was not a requirement for salvation.

I have said it before and I will say it again I believe that every christian that is able should get baptized; I just do not buy into you must be baptized as soon as you are saved. I did a lot of street witnessing in my younger years. We would lead people to Jesus right there on the sidewalk they did not get baptized right there on the spot but yes they got baptized. Again I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, I believe that there is no other name in heaven, on earth, or below the earth that you can call on for salvation. Yes I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and in His name and none other can I person be saved. I believe in water baptism; like I believe that like calling on the name of Jesus believing that Jesus is The Only Son of God, and through Him we have forgiveness of sin because of the blood He shed on the cross? NO. Do I believe a person should get baptized yes I do if I have said it once I will say it again and again . . . a thousand and one times yes you should be baptized. Never will you hear me say water baptism must happen as soon as you get saved or that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

I hope that helps clear things up.

 

[CS1]

Verses 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16.He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

You and I may be on the same page I am not sure. You notice the last half of that verse 16 says “But he that believeth not shall be damned.” If salvation is by believing and being baptized how come you are damned by just not believing.

I got saved on board ship there was no place to be baptized and the Christians I was studding with said they did baptism 2-3 times a year. There was an importance put on it they made sure I know that when we had the opportunity I should get baptized, but that it was not a requirement for salvation.

I have said it before and I will say it again I believe that every christian that is able should get baptized; I just do not buy into you must be baptized as soon as you are saved. I did a lot of street witnessing in my younger years. We would lead people to Jesus right there on the sidewalk they did not get baptized right there on the spot but yes they got baptized. Again I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, I believe that there is no other name in heaven, on earth, or below the earth that you can call on for salvation. Yes I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross and in His name and none other can I person be saved. I believe in water baptism; like I believe that like calling on the name of Jesus believing that Jesus is The Only Son of God, and through Him we have forgiveness of sin because of the blood He shed on the cross? NO. Do I believe a person should get baptized yes I do if I have said it once I will say it again and again . . . a thousand and one times yes you should be baptized. Never will you hear me say water baptism must happen as soon as you get saved or that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

I hope that helps clear things up.

the context of Believe is not a mental acceptance but a surrender to.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!


Belief in calls for more than just an intellectual accepting there is a god but still not acting on the belief.

Example I hear the Gospel message, which is the POWER of GOD Paul said in Romans 1:16





8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”



then as Roman 10:8-11 says, you hear the Gospel, and the power of God convicts you of sin and your need for Christ. You are able to believe That Jesus is who he said he is and free to act on that in faith. Faith and belief come from the heart, which then enables one to Confess. Then you are saved in a statement of Faith you obey by baptism, which is a public announcement to the world that Jesus is Lord. Roman 6 explains

One faith
one Baptism

 

[pottersclay]

Question...
Baptisim may not be necessary to be saved..... but....what good is your confession of faith if you refuse or just ignor your first commandment of your Lord? Belief and baptise.
Seen alot of these threads about this debate and truthfully no one has ever answered the question.
Accountable.....if you are mentally, physically, capable of being baptised then do it.
Reguardless of you theology on the subject it is a commandment.
We strive to be Christ like but wait wasnt he baptised? Think so...

 

[CS1]

Question...
Baptisim may not be necessary to be saved..... but....what good is your confession of faith if you refuse or just ignor your first commandment of your Lord? Belief and baptise.
Seen alot of these threads about this debate and truthfully no one has ever answered the question.
Accountable.....if you are mentally, physically, capable of being baptised then do it.
Reguardless of you theology on the subject it is a commandment.
We strive to be Christ like but wait wasnt he baptised? Think so...

is the servant greater than his lord?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If not eternal salvation, what do you think is meant by being in the likeness of Jesus' resurrection?

Baptism is not the cause of us getting eternal life. "We should also (after being baptised) walk in newness of life"

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Many agree with you. However, the scripture does not say because of, it says for the remission of sin. If what you say is correct why did Ananias tell Paul to do it to wash away his sins? Acts 22:16

The word "for" means "unto" the remission of sins on the cross. If we are born again, and commit a sin, we feel guilt. Baptism, which is an answer to a good conscience, washes away that guilt

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Having faith in Jesus is what brings about the reality of one's sins being remitted upon obedience to the command. If you will recall Jesus stated that he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Mark 16:15-16.

I am sorry that I have to disagree with you again. Saved, according to Greek translation means "delivered". We are delivered once by Jesus paying for our sins, and if we are born again, we are delivered many times as we sojourn here in this world. If baptism was the cause of our eternal inheritance of heaven, it would constitute eternal deliverance by our good works, and I don't think you would agree to that.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I truly understand. I believe that a lot of, born again, young children, are baptised without the knowledge of what baptism stands for, however, I do believe that young children become aware of the knowledge of the teaching of Christ's doctrine, the same way that us adults do, and that is by the revelation of the Holy Spirit within all who are born again.

I hear what you're saying, but I've never stepped foot in a church that actually knew and taught the Gospel. In fact, I didn't know what the True Gospel was until about four years ago. I've been a "christian" for 50 years. I've spent so much money on audio sermon CDs, DVDs, cassettes, and books over the decades, yet not one stitch of those teachings covered the actual Gospel.