Church Doctrine VS. God's Word

[Runningman]

The scripture you reference goes on to make a crucial point that many miss. Verse 5 says, IF
we have been planted together in the likeness of Jesus' death (through obedience to water baptism) we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. And that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (verse 6)

I made a thread about this once. Baptism seems to be closely linked to resurrection in a number of passages and not in a symbolic way. Would you agree with that?

 

[Runningman]

Church doctrine vs. God's word .

There’s widespread church doctrine in the body of Christ unfortunately. At some point I have wondered when the church stops becoming the church and when it becomes a denomination or a cult.

Anyway, people should focus on keeping their foundation accurate, especially the “mature Christians” who are often still babes without even realizing it.

Hebrews 5:11,12
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

 

[Evmur]

Baptism, Peter says, is an appeal to God for a clean conscience ... great when you are under heavy attack.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Church doctrine vs. God's word



Church Doctrine Gods Word

#1. God's word is truth God's word is truth

#2. God is all seeing and all knowing God is all seeing and all knowing

#3. Jesus died on the cross for our sins Jesus died for our sins

#4. God is 3 in one, God the Father, God is the 3 in one, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit

God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit



I would have to say that 99.9% of all christian churches would agree with these 4 beliefs.

Lets look at one that is a little more tricky That is baptism There Are those that say you must be baptized before you are saved They use scripture like Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then you have Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Some will say Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved they forget the second part of the verse;He that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is not involved in being damned so why should it be a requirement for salvation.

Lets look at the other side of the coin Ephesians 2:8&9 8.For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9.Not of works, lest any man should boast. If we include baptism into salvation that means that it is not just the blood of Jesus that forgives but it is the blood of Jesus and my getting int o the water some putting me under the water and me getting back up and out to be saved. That is not just the blood of Jesus, and that gives me something to boast about.

Those that say you have to be baptized before you are saved let me put this to you. Lets say you live in some place like Kansas that it normally does not get cold enough to have the pipes freeze but sometimes it dose. So Saturday night they get that freak deep freeze it freezes the water pipes a church the baptismal can not be filled. Some people still show up and one person is new hears the message and wants to get saved. The pastor and several people pray with him but he can not get baptized because of the frozen pipes. He is driving on that icy road someone is going to fast looses control hits him and kills him. Is God going to send him to hell because he did not get baptized? The church doctrine says he was not baptized therefore he was not saved.

Gods word The Bible says Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

No baptism needed.

My understanding of how God saved (delivered) his people to inherit their home in heaven, is by having his Son to be a sacrifice for those that he gave to him. (John 6:39)

 

[Wansvic]

2nd John 1:9-11 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11. for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.



We had better understand the doctrine of Christ. If we want to have both The Father and The Son Look at verse 10 If there come any(Any that would your pastor, your Sunday school teacher, a gust speaker at your church . . . ) that bring not this doctrine. (what is John talking about? The teachings, the things that Jesus did and said that ended up making the Gospel and the letters and the book of Revelation which is a letter.) Receive him not into your house(Just where did they have church back then? In there homes. So if some one came into town and came to the home where church was held and brought some strange doctrine they were told to leave) Neither bid him God speed. (do not even say God Bless you ad have a good day) Verse 11 For he who greets him( Hay good to see you today pastor, put your tithe into the plate, or any thing else that would show you agree with him or her. This is what happens to you!) Shares in his evil deeds. (is your church, your place of worship teaching the things taught by Jesus, Paul, James, John . . . it is up to you to know the difference between the true gospel and the fake. If I have said it once I have said it 100 times and I will keep on saying it;



Acts 17:10-12 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11.These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12.Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

These Berean's had Paul and Silas teaching them; Paul could be said to have been the best teacher next to Jesus in the new testament; but did the Berean's take Paul at his word? No they went home and searched the scriptures (the old testament) to see if what He was teaching lined up with them. When was the last time you went to church listened to your pastor and then went home to searched the scriptures to make sure what he said was true. You should your spiritual life depends on it.



Mark 13:21-23

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Jesus makes it very clear here there will be people telling you Jesus is here we have the truth, no Jesus is over here in our church, we have the real truth;No come over here we doing we healing, we have all different types of signs and wonders happening. They will use all these things to seduce you and if possible even the elect.

Verse 23 take note of it: But take heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But take heed(pay close attention) I Jesus have foretold you a few things NO that is not what He said; He said I have foretold you all things.



One last thing and we will cut it off.

12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.



12. All the things that I do, I do to stop those that are trying to make you thank that they are teaching and doing the same work as we are. Verse 13. They are nothing but false apostles deceitful workers making themselves seam as sent ones of Christ. Verses.14&15 It is no wonder for Satan himself is coming as the instead of Christ he is going to set himself up as God. It is no great thing that his ministers will be able to do the same thing; but Their end will be according to their works. They are going to pay a heave price.

There is a theme that runs through all of this and it is up to us to find the truth of God the way of God through this word. If we seek and if we ask and if we work at it He will take us by the hand and lead us through the narrow gate.



I did not take it lightly when I was baptized several years ago I do not think it should be taken lightly now. It should not be the center part of salvation. Jesus death on the cross the blood that He shed for me and everyone else was, is, and will always be the greatest gift ever. Greater than my wife, my kids my family.
I do not take baptism is the center peace of salvation or your christian life.

Refusing to believe Jesus is not without consequence. (John 12:48)

• He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And in the case of water baptism, scripture references that obedience to it in the name of the Lord Jesus is for remission of one's sin in accordance with Jesus' sacrifice. (Acts 2:1-39, Acts 22:16) Jesus' sacrifice made this possible for all of mankind. All have the opportunity to receive what Jesus died to provide, but not all will. For straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few will find it. But broad is the gate that leads to destruction and many are going that way. (Matthew 7)

Keep in mind that Jesus never said, get baptized after you are saved. He specifically stated, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved:
"...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Obedience to water baptism is an essential part of the gospel message. (Mark 1:1-5, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. It's a lot more than a public declaration. When you reduce it to a mere formality it loses most of its importance.

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3-4

Rom 6:3-4, does not refer to eternal salvation

 

[ResidentAlien]

Rom 6:3-4, does not refer to eternal salvation

Not enough information. I don't know what you mean.

 

[JaumeJ]

There’s widespread church doctrine in the body of Christ unfortunately. At some point I have wondered when the church stops becoming the church and when it becomes a denomination or a cult.

Anyway, people should focus on keeping their foundation accurate, especially the “mature Christians” who are often still babes without even realizing it.

Hebrews 5:11,12
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Church doctrine that does not agree with the Word is apostasy Aposstasy is said to be rampant just before the return of our Lord, and I cannot believe it is going to begin now..........I think we are well into it.

The only Teacher of the Word is the Lord, Jesus Yeshua. I cannot deny this fundamental truth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Ok, maybe read it again. Because it is just a matter of simple reading comprehension.
He took passages that speak about the efficacy of baptism and then he compared them to passages not about baptism and came to the conclusion, (quote) " no baptism needed".
He used passages not about baptism to cancel out the passages about baptism.
Rather than to harmonize those passages.

He also used contrapositive logic on this passage (I'll copy and paste it so it's not changed). "Then you have Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Some will say Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved they forget the second part of the verse;He that believeth not shall be damned. Baptism is not involved in being damned so why should it be a requirement for salvation."

He used one half of a statement here and used it to cancel the other half. In some terrible logic. The reason baptism isnt mentioned in the second half pf the statement os because those who dont believe dont get baptized. To harmonize and understand the statement here it is to use simple reading comprehension. Baptism becomes the outcome or product of believing. One who believes would then naturally be baptized and one who does jot believe would therefore not be baptized. And having not believed and subsequently therefore by default also not be baptized is condemned already.

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Baptism doth also now save us (deliver us from our guilt) It does not deliver us eternally.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Not enough information. I don't know what you mean.

I am sorry that I threw that out, without explanation.

I think that these scriptures tell us that had not Christ been raised from the dead, we also would not be raised from the dead. His death on the cross would not have been effective for our eternal salvation had he not risen.

This may not relate to the subject at hand, but it brought to my mind this truth.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I am sorry that I threw that out, without explanation.

I think that these scriptures tell us that had not Christ been raised from the dead, we also would not be raised from the dead. His death on the cross would not have been effective for our eternal salvation had he not risen.

This may not relate to the subject at hand, but it brought to my mind this truth.

I agree. Good point.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The Bible states water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is for remission of one's sin.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38-39


Ananias' instruction to the Apostle Paul, "Why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling upon the name of the Lord" Acts 22:16

We should be baptised "because of the remission of sins" by Jesus's death on the cross. Baptism is an answer of a good conscience toward God. There is a deliverance from our guilty conscience when we are baptised, but it is not the cause of our eternal deliverance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Church doctrine that does not agree with the Word is apostasy Aposstasy is said to be rampant just before the return of our Lord, and I cannot believe it is going to begin now..........I think we are well into it.

The only Teacher of the Word is the Lord, Jesus Yeshua. I cannot deny this fundamental truth.

Doctrine is important to understand, if it is the teaching of Christ, and the knowledge of his doctrine only comes by the revelation from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

The Bible states water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is for remission of one's sin.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38-39


Ananias' instruction to the Apostle Paul, "Why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling upon the name of the Lord" Acts 22:16

You have 2 verses which appear to disprove that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ, but instead is by faith in water baptism.
My United Church of Christ neighbors have tried to "correct" me about my misplaced faith in Christ alone, many times.

When I read a verse or two that seems to mean one thing and a hundred others that say something totally different, there must be a misunderstanding because the Bible is always correct.
Since you showed me two verses apparently about water baptism, should we throw out the entire gospel of John? Guess how many times it uses the word believe with no requirements for works like baptism?

 

[Dirtman]

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Baptism doth also now save us (deliver us from our guilt) It does not deliver us eternally.

I never said anything about any of that. Y'all read stuff into or out of anything y'all read so as to make it suit you. I merely pointed out the op's theological gerrymandering.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Anyway, people should focus on keeping their foundation accurate, especially the “mature Christians” who are often still babes without even realizing it.

Their foundation is accurate, if it is built on the correct interpretation of the doctrine that Christ taught. Unfortunately, only the "remnant of Israel" (who is Jacob, by God changing is name to be called Israel- Gen 32:3) are given that knowledge, by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. The rest of those who are born again are blinded, and are still on the milk of the word.

 

[Thewatchman]

Did Ananias tell Paul to obey God's command and be water baptized as a public display? He did not. Ananias said, "What are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name." Acts 22:16.

The Word Brings Salvation
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Refusing to believe Jesus is not without consequence. (John 12:48)

• He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And in the case of water baptism, scripture references that obedience to it in the name of the Lord Jesus is for remission of one's sin in accordance with Jesus' sacrifice. (Acts 2:1-39, Acts 22:16) Jesus' sacrifice made this possible for all of mankind. All have the opportunity to receive what Jesus died to provide, but not all will. For straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few will find it. But broad is the gate that leads to destruction and many are going that way. (Matthew 7)

Keep in mind that Jesus never said, get baptized after you are saved. He specifically stated, he that believes and is baptized shall be saved:
"...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Obedience to water baptism is an essential part of the gospel message. (Mark 1:1-5, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

Failure to understand that the Greek translation of salvation=deliverance, saved=delivered, save=deliver, will lead God's, well intended, children, to falsely believe that eternal deliverance is gained by their good works. Most of the salvation scriptures has reference to deliverances that the child of God receives as he sojourns here in this world.

John the baptist was preaching the baptism for (unto) the remission of sins that was to come by Jesus's death on the cross. There is a deliverance (salvation) of a guilty conscience, here in this world, when a person gets baptised, but it is not the cause of eternal deliverance.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The Word Brings Salvation
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

There is an eternal deliverance (Greek translation for salvation) and there are many deliverances (salvations) that the child of God receives as he sojourns here in this world, which includes the book of Romans.

The inspired word of God is directed to God's born again children as instructions as to how God wants his children to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

There is a deliverance (salvation) of a guilty conscience, here in this world, when a person gets baptised

That didn't happen to me. Instead, and with my hair still wet from being dunked, I proceeded to cross the street and steal a bag of rubberbands for my paper-route. I was 12 years old and should have never been baptized. I didn't Truly believe in Jesus . . . at . . . all. Now, if the "church" actually taught Colossians 2:9-15, then and perhaps, I might have understood the Gospel and perhaps I would have Truly Believed in the Work that renders a person to be a True Christian.