Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[CS1]

You are like 99% of pentecostals, terrifed to address the real issue. You will not look the gorilla in the eyes, fearful of what you will see.

This is why it is so very hard to reach out to pentacostals, for them to admit error is to admit their role in the larger hoax.

Pentecostals can not grasp the truth because to do so would mean admitting their years of tongues was but babble, I understand.

Pentecostal "supernatural abilities" are not of the devil, they are simply not supernatural. Just a strong and passionate desire for something to be true. When we want something to be true, we will find a way to believe it.

CS1 think about these things.

You are a judgemental person and do not know anything about me nor can you place me in any kind of percentage. Your arrogance betrays you. FYI Jesus is the Truth, what else does one need to grasp? And equally, your response is typical of those who have hatred for those they disagree with Biblically.

You know nothing of those who are pentecostal, this is very evident because no pentecostal call the gifts of the Holy Spirit
"pentecostal supernatural abilities" . You have not addressed the Biblical passages or text provided to you about the Charismata or pnumatekia which are found and Paul taught to the early church in 1cor chapter 12-14.

You have not shown where they are not for today and how 1cor 13:8-10 says this. All you have is personal attacks and immature responses about those who you do not know. Please try to get ahold of yourself and show me biblically where I am wrong if you can?

 

[CS1]

You have not asked many Pentecostals who have been healed to show proof or you would have chosen another line of argument. I know of many who can produce medical documentation of healing of cancer, without treatments. Broken bones. Xrays one day apart, one with a fracture the other whole. DOCUMENTED before witnesses. The broken bone xray event was witnessed by a Warden, a Prison Doctor, and a 2nd Lieutenant in a prison in Texas when I was saved in the early 80s. They did not know what to say about it other than to give the prison fellowship group there more freedom to meet and preach as a result.

You need to meet more Pentecostals and ask for your proof. But don't deny it when they show it to you. Practice the intellectual honesty you seem to be decrying.

Scribe I know more non- pentecostal who have been healed by the power of God LOL

 

[ronair]

You have not asked many Pentecostals who have been healed to show proof or you would have chosen another line of argument. I know of many who can produce medical documentation of healing of cancer, without treatments. Broken bones. Xrays one day apart, one with a fracture the other whole. DOCUMENTED before witnesses. The broken bone xray event was witnessed by a Warden, a Prison Doctor, and a 2nd Lieutenant in a prison in Texas when I was saved in the early 80s. They did not know what to say about it other than to give the prison fellowship group there more freedom to meet and preach as a result.

You need to meet more Pentecostals and ask for your proof. But don't deny it when they show it to you. Practice the intellectual honesty you seem to be decrying.

Mormons, Hindus, Muslims etc. etc. use your line of thinking to prove their narrative as well, Pentecostals are no different. In other words, if such "evidence" is enough then all of these groups are real.

Jesus and the Apostles did not use such weak evidence to prove such a powerful claim. If the claims of Pentecostals could be proven we would not be debating it today.

I think deep down you know this.

 

[ronair]

Scribe I know more non- pentecostal who have been healed by the power of God LOL

Pentecostals go to hospitals just as much as the rest of us. Your example proves nothing.

 

[Truth7t7]

I watch a youtube channel called fighting for the faith, what he does is compare what people are saying in the name of the Lord to what the word of God says. It's horrific what many main line big name pastors say and many of them are Pentecostal.

I agree, take a look at Paul and Jan Crouch TBN, Adulterers Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker PTL, both Assembly Of God, Scandal After Scandal $$$

Throw ole Adulterer Kenneth Copeland in there, A pilot to Oral Robert's, and attended his university in "Seed Faith" $Pentecostalism$

The Azusa Street Revival Was Out Of Order In 1906 And Its Out Of Order Today

A 5:33 Clip On The Chaos Of Pentecostalism, A Disgrace To Christianity!

 

[Scribe]

Mormons, Hindus, Muslims etc. etc. use your line of thinking to prove their narrative as well, Pentecostals are no different. In other words, if such "evidence" is enough then all of these groups are real.

Jesus and the Apostles did not use such weak evidence to prove such a powerful claim. If the claims of Pentecostals could be proven we would not be debating it today.

I think deep down you know this.

People did not always believe even when Jesus healed or even raised the dead. Therefore your argument that Pentecostals have to prove to you or others that the Gifts of the Spirit in their churches are real is not a biblical idea.

We don't need to prove anything to anyone. Even if you saw one raised from the dead you will not believe. I have seen a man hit by a truck, dead, and raised from the dead by prayer alone without medical treatment. Later in the hospital he said he remembered looking down on his body and the crowd around him and then the brother who said "Live in the name of Jesus" and he was looking up into his face. That is his testimony. I saw the whole thing. We were preaching on the corner of Greenville Ave and Park Lane in Dallas, Texas in 1984. It was a real as anything out of the book of Acts. People gasped in awe. That sign confirmed the word we were preaching.

We did not feel any need to prove to anyone there that what they had witnessed was not simply the man being knocked out and coincidentally reviving at the words of the prayer. We just kept preaching the Gospel and passing out tracts and praising God that what he did in Acts he is still doing today.

These signs FOLLOW them that believe when they GO and preach. If you are not doing that you will not see it. But some will see it and decide that it was a coincidence. Who cares. We just keep preaching and believing and raising the dead. Let the doubters doubt. We will believe.

I'd rather be a believer than a doubter. God likes faith.

 

[ronair]

You are a judgemental person and do not know anything about me nor can you place me in any kind of percentage. Your arrogance betrays you. FYI Jesus is the Truth, what else does one need to grasp? And equally, your response is typical of those who have hatred for those they disagree with Biblically.

You know nothing of those who are pentecostal, this is very evident because no pentecostal call the gifts of the Holy Spirit
"pentecostal supernatural abilities" . You have not addressed the Biblical passages or text provided to you about the Charismata or pnumatekia which are found and Paul taught to the early church in 1cor chapter 12-14.

You know nothing of those who are pentecostal, All you have is personal attacks and immature responses about those who you do not know. Please try to get ahold of yourself and show me biblically where I am wrong if you can?

"You know nothing of those who are pentecostal,"

Really.....the world most certainly knows all about the pentecostals.

You have not shown where they are not for today and how 1cor 13:8-10 says this.

Nice try but I do not need to prove when a scriptural promise was to end. It is the job of the person claiming that it is going on today to prove it.

He who claims proves and the pentecostals have failed at this simple task.

 

[CS1]

Mormons, Hindus, Muslims etc. etc. use your line of thinking to prove their narrative as well, Pentecostals are no different. In other words, if such "evidence" is enough then all of these groups are real.

Jesus and the Apostles did not use such weak evidence to prove such a powerful claim. If the claims of Pentecostals could be proven we would not be debating it today.

I think deep down you know this.

wrong !!!! for you to try and group Christians with Mormons and Muslims is outrageous. Again you did not provide any Biblical refute to the standing that is in a Pentecostal doctrine that the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit " as found in 1corthinians chapter 12 -14

1. are not for today
2. have ceased
3. and a Christian should not seek them today as Paul instructed then.

Unfounded bias and hate for those with who you disagree with.

 

[CS1]

"You know nothing of those who are pentecostal,"

Really.....the world most certainly knows all about the pentecostals.

You have not shown where they are not for today and how 1cor 13:8-10 says this.

Nice try but I do not need to prove when a scriptural promise was to end. It is the job of the person claiming that it is going on today to prove it.

He who claims proves and the pentecostals have failed at this simple task.

Yes, you do, if you are going to be seen as biblical you need to provide the Biblical authority to support your position, if not then you are a troll and a hater .

I will give you another chance Please explain how 1cor chapter 13:8-10 says that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased?

You suggest you are more Biblical than I and those who are Pentecostal, please I am waiting for you to do so?

I welcome you to bring the word of God right here right now and show us Biblically how :

1. the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased and not for today
2. How they stopped according to 1cor 13:8-10
3. why a Christian should not desire the Gifts of the Holy Spirit as paul said.

You don't have to use Mormons, Muslims, the occult, pagans, or voodoo ok, Just the word of God Please I will wait?

PST 2:54pm 4/16/21

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I agree, take a look at Paul and Jan Crouch TBN, Adulterers Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker PTL, both Assembly Of God, Scandal After Scandal $$$

Throw ole Adulterer Kenneth Copeland in there, A pilot to Oral Robert's, and attended his university in "Seed Faith" $Pentecostalism$

The Azusa Street Revival Was Out Of Order In 1906 And Its Out Of Order Today

A 5:33 Clip On The Chaos Of Pentecostalism, A Disgrace To Christianity!

Embarrassing

 

[Scribe]

"You know nothing of those who are pentecostal,"

Really.....the world most certainly knows all about the pentecostals.

You have not shown where they are not for today and how 1cor 13:8-10 says this.

Nice try but I do not need to prove when a scriptural promise was to end. It is the job of the person claiming that it is going on today to prove it.

He who claims proves and the pentecostals have failed at this simple task.

1 Cor 1:7
Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed

They were given Spiritual gifts until the Lord Comes again.

8... but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away....For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

When Jesus Comes Again, when we are in our eternal glorified perfect state... Then we will see him face to face and know even as we are known. This has been proven by almost all credible scholars to be when Jesus returns not when the last book of the bible was written. No one cleaves to that horrible hermeneutic any longer even those who once repeated it have all changed their minds.

Anyone who keeps repeating that "that which is perfect is come" is the writing of the bible is not learned in Greek, nor well read, or just not intellectually honest and cleaving to a bad interpretation out of belligerence.

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

 

[Scribe]

Yes, you do, if you are going to be seen as biblical you need to provide the Biblical authority to support your position, if not then you are a troll and a hater .

I will give you another chance Please explain how 1cor chapter 13:8-10 says that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased?

YOu suggest you are more Biblical than I and those who are Pentecostal, please I am waiting for you to do so?

You saying one has failed has not shown any such thing come on. I welcome you to bring the word of God right here right now and show us Biblically how :

1. the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased and not for today
2. How they stopped according to 1cor 13:8-10
3. why a Christian should not desire the Gifts of the Holy Spirit as paul said.

You have to use Mormons, Muslims, the occult, pagans, or voodoo ok, Just the word of God Please I will wait?

PST 2:54pm 4/16/21

voodoo?

 

[Truth7t7]

"You know nothing of those who are pentecostal,"

Really.....the world most certainly knows all about the pentecostals.

You have not shown where they are not for today and how 1cor 13:8-10 says this.

Nice try but I do not need to prove when a scriptural promise was to end. It is the job of the person claiming that it is going on today to prove it.

He who claims proves and the pentecostals have failed at this simple task.

Scripture clearly teaches below, that the gifts of Prophecy, Knowledge, Tongues, will cease at the future (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ, its right before your eyes!

1 Corinthians 13:8-10KJV
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

[CS1]

"You know nothing of those who are pentecostal,"

Really.....the world most certainly knows all about the pentecostals.

You have not shown where they are not for today and how 1cor 13:8-10 says this.

Nice try but I do not need to prove when a scriptural promise was to end. It is the job of the person claiming that it is going on today to prove it.

He who claims proves and the pentecostals have failed at this simple task.

3:11 PM
Friday, April 16, 2021 (PDT)

 

[oyster67]

Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

It will to all those poor souls that end up in eternal hellfire.

 

[oyster67]

That just about sums it up for those who are clueless about preaching the Gospel, signs and wonders, spiritual gifts and about what exegesis and hermeneutics is all about.

Why grandmother!, what big words you have!

 

[Lookupnotback]

I was not vague if you have followed the thread and understand the position of many cessationists, then you would know exactly what I am talking about

I am sorry but it seems you are being vague, what about a standard statement of faith and whom it is you tie your roots to? That would make it all vary plain to understand and clear up what the denomination stands for and who’s lead they follow....would that be possible?-)

 

[PaulChristensen]

And as we see the results of what Jesus said here the evidence is to fact they only went to Jews ,the miracles were given to Jews by that context , Jews always seek a sign, God has always dealt with Jews with signs. Its not until 10 years after Acts 2 does this programme change. So look at the fruit of Mark 16 and see what the result of Jesus words was .

Using what Jesus said about the Jews always seeking a sign is out of place when referring to the signs following the Apostles' preaching of the Gospel. He was referring to the specific signs the Jews were expecting to show that the Messiah had come. But when Jesus came, the signs they were expecting weren't there. He did not come as a powerful conqueror to kick the Romans out and restore sovereignty to Israel. It is important to consider the context when referring to something that Jesus said during His earthly ministry to the Jews.

The signs following the preaching of the Gospel were healing of the sick and setting pagans free from demonic influence (ie; casting out of demons). When the pagans saw the power of the Holy Spirit in operation through miracles of healing and deliverance, they realized that Jesus Christ had more power than their pagan gods. Paul came to the Corinthians with the demonstration of the Spirit and of power. It was what the Corinthians saw of the miracles in Paul's ministry that caused them to come to Christ.

There was Gregory the Wonderworker who had to spend the night in a pagan temple. The next morning, the pagan priest went in to do his thing. But because the demon in the god statue had been cast out, the priest couldn't do his supernatural ministry. He wrote a letter to Gregory pleading to allow the demon back into the statue. Gregory complied, but it was too late. The pagans saw that the power of Jesus Christ was greater than the demon in the statue and multitudes of them turned to Christ. It is the recorded that the pagan priest himself became the Christian bishop of the region. These were the type of signs that followed the preaching of the Gospel, not the signs that the Jews were looking for as evidence of the coming of their Messiah.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I accept cessationism

1 - the completed canon fits with the context of Gods revelation in 1 co 13. Also in Ephesians 4.

Most reliable commentators, including the church fathers quoted 1 Corinthians 13 as what will happen at the second coming of Christ, and that the perfect was not the Christian Scriptures at all. I cannot see that Ephesians 4 has anything to do with the cessation of Spiritual gifts.

2 the death of the apostles also completed the work of the Holy Spirit through sign and ministry gifts

Not true. The early church fathers reported continued healing, tongues, prophecy and casting out of demons, well into the 4th Century. Augustine initially promoted cessationism, but because of the overwhelming evidence of the miraculous in his region, he changed his mind and acknowledged that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were still evident.

3 the objective experience of signs wonders and miracles now is that they are at least very very rare (since God can still work according to His will they are still possible)

They are rare, not because God has taken them away, but because of the unbelieving church that is limiting the power of the Holy Spirit in the same way that the unbelief of those in Jesus' home town prevented Him from doing many miracles, and He only able to heal a few people.

If the gifts were for now we should have clear and obvious biblical signs and wonders etc

There are many testimonies all over the world that does show that the Biblical signs and wonders are still happening. This is especially evident in the third world where people believe in the supernatural far more than our "enlightened" western society which is influenced by science, while third world countries are not so influenced.

So you can only speak for yourself when you give your opinions, and not for everyone else.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Why grandmother!, what big words you have!

I've also got big teeth to bite you with!