Catholicism vs Protestantism

Wansvic · Jul 8, 2020

Acts 22:10 I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' The Lord said to me, 'Arise, and go into Damascus. There you will be told about all things which are appointed for you to do.'

does the book of Acts say that Paul is instructed to be baptized?
or just that he is baptized?
since there are several accounts of Paul's conversion, I'm not sure.

to me, the situation is similar to that of the Philippian jailer
Acts 16:24 who, having received such a command, threw them into the inner prison, and secured their feet in the stocks. 25 But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were loosened. 27 The jailer, being roused out of sleep and seeing the prison doors open, drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, "Don't harm yourself, for we are all here!" 29 He called for lights and sprang in, and, fell down trembling before Paul and Silas, 30 and brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

very interesting situation here, imo.
the question is almost identical to what Peter is asked at Pentecost,
but Paul responds with a somewhat different answer
Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 They spoke the word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his house. 33 He took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes, and was immediately baptized, he and all his household.
34 He brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his household, having believed in God.

we may wish to compare this with the passage above
"They spoke the word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his house."

Paul and Silas spoke the entire Bible to them?

regarding salvation,
do you believe God uses the same absolute standard for everyone,
including those who do not have a Bible in their language?

They spoke the word of the Lord in reference to their question, "What must I do to be saved?" The records mention of water baptism indicates it was part of the answer.

Jesus stated that Ananias would tell Paul everything he must do. His baptism is recorded in Acts 22:16.

Note in both cases above an individual provided a verbal answer.

Wansvic · Jul 8, 2020

Dan_473 said:

I disagree.
can you think of ways in which the situation is different for the disciples in Ephesus in Acts 19 compared to the apostles in the upper room?

of course, Paul gives somewhat different instructions to the Philippian jailer.

if you believe there is a specific algorithm that must be followed for salvation, doesn't it seem strange that the Bible describes salvation in so many different ways?

1 Timothy 2:14 Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; 15 but she will be saved through her childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.

is it a promise, or a commandment?

do those passages state that the people involved were baptized in order to obtain salvation?

that's correct.

and I mean this next part very gently:
without the longer ending of Mark, you lack the "slam dunk" that you would really like the Bible to have.

that is true, if one strongly desires to see it there.

as I talked about earlier, wherever the location of a baptism is known, it is outdoors.

using the same approach, then, baptisms must be done outdoors.

well, in the longer ending of Mark Jesus talks about speaking with "new tongues".
I'm not sure, but I think in all the other Scriptures it says "other tongues".

Only by gathering all verses pertaining to a given subject; ie, water baptism, etc., from each book of the bible can one see what the Spirit has revealed concerning it.

Dan_473 · Jul 8, 2020

Wansvic said:

it is a common view that the most literal translations best convey the meaning.

but consider translating the Spanish word
adios.

literally, it means
with God,
short for
go with God.

if you're translating a story from Spanish to English, and a character says, "adios",
does it make sense to translate it as
with God
or
goodbye
?

I think a similar situation arises with the Hebrew understanding of
in the name of.

1 Samuel 17:42 When the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him; for he was but a youth, and ruddy, and withal of a fair face. 43 The Philistine said to David, "Am I a dog, that you come to me with sticks?" The Philistine cursed David by his gods. 44 The Philistine said to David, "Come to me, and I will give your flesh to the birds of the sky, and to the animals of the field." 45 Then David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a javelin: but I come to you in the name of Yah-O of Armies, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.

does this mean that David went out chanting
Yah-O Yah-O Yah-O
?

of course not.
in the name of
relates more closely in our Western minds to
in the authority of, based on the reputation of.

any translation necessarily involves subjective decisions by the translators.
this is especially true when it comes to idioms like
in the name of.

which things in the Bible a person takes at face value and which things they are willing to stretch a bit or compress a bit
will greatly affect what they believe the Bible clearly teaches, in my experience.

Wansvic · Jul 8, 2020

@Dan_473

My Comment: However, at times I have been drawn to the scripture in 1 Thessalonians that would seem to indicate that man's spirit, soul and body must be dwelt with separately. And wondered whether obedience to repentance, water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost caused spiritual realities in connection with the separate parts of man. Any thoughts?:

Your Response: thanks for asking!

I think Paul is simply giving a blessing, and in most languages it sounds nice if you use the
"rule of three".

like this
1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

three phrases,
the first one has a string of three adjectives...
maybe the three adjectives refer to the three persons of the Godhead,
or maybe it just gives it a musical sound.

My point was in reference to 1 or more of man's make-up; spirit, soul and body, being guilty while the other's are not.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess 5:23

Dan_473 · Jul 8, 2020

Wansvic said:

Or, the word of the Lord that they spoke was basic instructions on the Christian Life, since they would be leaving soon.

I believe what I was wanting to get across was that phrases like
the word of God
and
the word of the Lord
are not synonymous with the entire Bible.

or, the cultural mindset was such that a ceremonial washing made sense to them.

yes, ananias told him things,
and after that one of the things he did was be baptized.

the passage also says that Paul ate.
does it necessarily follow that ananias told him to do that?
does it follow that everyone is to eat after baptism?

if you are referring to Peter at Pentecost and Paul to the jailer,
then yes, they did both give a verbal answer.
however, the answers are not the same.

I think it makes sense, though...
different people and situations.

just like Jesus saying to buy a sword.

Dan_473 · Jul 8, 2020

Wansvic said:

I believe there are different understandings of which scriptures concern water baptism

for example
John 13:3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he came forth from God, and was going to God, 4 arose from supper, and laid aside his outer garments. He took a towel, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5 Then he poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

and
Psalm 18:14 He sent out his arrows, and scattered them; Yes, great lightning bolts, and routed them. 15 Then the channels of waters appeared. The foundations of the world were laid bare at your rebuke, Lord, at the blast of the breath of your nostrils.

Dan_473 · Jul 8, 2020

Wansvic said:

it's definitely a possible understanding.

23May the God who gives peace make you holy in every way. May he keep your whole being-spirit, soul, and body-blameless when our Lord Jesus Christ comes. 24The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do this.
https://biblehub.com/gwt/1_thessalonians/5.htm

we know that Paul had the ability to get long-winded.

his specifying of body soul and Spirit may simply be his way of expanding on saying
the whole person.

today we might say,
"may God make you truly, deeply holy."

Wansvic · Jul 8, 2020

Dan_473 said:

As stated the experiences noted contain spiritual rebirth components initially presented by Peter at Pentecost. Those instructions parallel Jesus' statement that a man must be born of water and Spirit.

It is all a matter of faith. And faith coming by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Wansvic · Jul 8, 2020

Dan_473 said:

When uncertain the word has the answer for those seeking the truth:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

May God Bless.

Dan_473 · Jul 8, 2020

Wansvic said:

(Again, I say all this gently.)
I know that you feel that you have a good system for making all the verses fit together.

but can you see what you are doing?
you start with two passages, and assume that they are to be taken word for word.
anything that doesn't quite fit is bent just a bit so that it fits.

suppose instead that you started with Matthew 28, and took that word for word.

or possibly this
Mark 1:8 I baptized you in water, but he will baptize you in the Holy Spirit."

I haven't researched this, but I think that may be the only saying that is in all four Gospels and the book of Acts (twice).

Dan_473 · Jul 8, 2020

Wansvic said:

absolutely!

now, I asked sought and knocked 20 years ago, as well as today.

yet, the understandings of the Bible that I had 20 years ago are not the same as the ones I have today.

this situation leads me to believe that the holy Spirit guides us, he doesn't glue us in place.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Don't quench the Spirit. 20 Don't despise prophesies. 21 Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good.

one of the tests, I think, is
does this approach promote the fruit of the spirit or the works of the flesh?

and God bless you, too, my brother!

Wansvic · Jul 8, 2020

Dan_473 said:

I disagree with your statement that I bend scripture. I have shared far more than 2 passages that speak to the components required for one's spiritual rebirth.

John's statement in no way expresses that water baptism would cease to be required when the Holy Spirit was imparted. Just as he introduced the baptism of repentance for the remission of sin, he was introducing the concept of a future baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I believe you are missing the fact that the Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles, and individuals such as the Ephesus disciples all complied with all three of the initial instructions, given by Peter, to repent, be water baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2, 8, 10, 19) If the rebirth experience did not require all of the components it would be reflected in at least one of those records. It is not.

Jesus said unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot ENTER the kingdom. Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom. And it was Peter who provided the keys in his instructions for individuals to be water baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that no one will even have a chance to ENTER heaven unless their sins have been washed away through the spiritual rebirth.

Jackson123 · Jul 8, 2020

Dan_473 said:

There is no passage in the scriptures it is wright

Jackson123 · Jul 9, 2020

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...cis-says-he-would-baptise-aliens-9360632.html

I believe this is the different between catholic and Protestant

Catholic is demonic, believe or consider to believe alien

Dan_473 · Jul 9, 2020

Wansvic said:

it's all good.
I understand that you disagree, and hopefully if we keep talking we will come to a place where we understand each other even more.

does it help if I say that in my experience, everyone who attempts to make a single coherent theological system from the Bible ends up bending some verses somewhere?

and yes, I agree that you have posted far more than two scriptures.

at the same time, suppose we compare Peter's instructions regarding baptism at Pentecost in Acts 2 and Jesus' instructions in Matthew 28.

suppose a person likes to start with Acts 2.
then they go on to build their case in the rest of the book of Acts.
once they feel their case is solid, they deal with Matthew by, well, bending it enough to fit with the system they have in place.

I believe the approach you use is to say that since the fullness of the Godhead* lives in Jesus, the Trinitarian formula is contained in the name of Jesus.

I think a reasonable conclusion would then be that Jesus is the name of the father and of the son and of the holy Spirit.
but when I've asked you about that, I don't believe you have answered, unless you did respond and I didn't see it.

*translator's choice, other possible words would convey a different meaning.

Dan_473 · Jul 9, 2020

Jackson123 said:

well, since I'm not aware that the Bible states that aliens don't exist, or how the gospel would apply to them if they do,
myself, I wouldn't say that the pope can't be a Christian just based on that newspaper article.

****************
if you are interested in returning to an earlier subject,
I believe I asked you about this earlier on thread and I don't remember you responding.

do you agree with this?
22 Then Paul stood before the meeting of the Areopagus and said, “People of Athens, I can see you are very religious in all things. 23 As I was going through your city, I saw the objects you worship. I found an altar that had these words written on it: to a god who is not known. You worship a god that you don’t know, and this is the God I am telling you about!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17&version=NCV

Jackson123 · Jul 9, 2020

Dan_473 said:

well, since I'm not aware that the Bible states that aliens don't exist, or how the gospel would apply to them if they do,
myself, I wouldn't say that the pope can't be a Christian just based on that newspaper article.

****************
if you are interested in returning to an earlier subject,
I believe I asked you about this earlier on thread and I don't remember you responding.

do you agree with this?
22 Then Paul stood before the meeting of the Areopagus and said, “People of Athens, I can see you are very religious in all things. 23 As I was going through your city, I saw the objects you worship. I found an altar that had these words written on it: to a god who is not known. You worship a god that you don’t know, and this is the God I am telling you about!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17&version=NCV

So you believe there is allien and you believe allien is not Satan

About your question I already respon.

Dan_473 · Jul 10, 2020

Jackson123 said:

no, I didn't say either of those things.

I don't think the Bible talks about aliens from outer space.

maybe they exist, maybe they don't.

maybe the whole idea is something of satanic origin, maybe not.

I can't find your response.
if you would like to help me find it, that would be great!

do you want to continue on the subject of the Athenians and the unknown God,
or do you want to be done with it?

Jackson123 · Jul 10, 2020

Dan_473 said:

Allien is Satan.
To believe allien not Satan you have to add or make your own bible. Bible never say God create allien.

God create human, angel and fallen angel, so who is allien?
Not human, not angel, so it is fallen angel, and Pope work for this fallen angel to lie.

About Athenians god, I don't believe they worship Jesus prior to Paul arrival

Dan_473 · Jul 10, 2020

Jackson123 said:

Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.

if aliens exist, they would be something in "the heavens", or "sky".

the Bible doesn't say that God created the Aurora Borealis, either.
one reason for that is probably because people in the Middle East can't see the Auroras.

but I think it would be a mistake to conclude that therefore they come from Satan.

same thing would be true with aliens.
if they exist, it would be because God created them.

my brother, that's a pretty big stretch, imo, to go from the pope speculating about the possibility of aliens and how they would fit in his theology to saying he works for them.

anyways, a lot of Protestants accept the possibility of aliens, so it's hardly a "Catholic vs Protestant" issue.

So Paul got to his feet in the middle of their council, and began, “Gentlemen of Athens, my own eyes tell me that you are in all respects an extremely religious people. For as I made my way here and looked at your shrines I noticed one altar (one of a number in Athens) on which were inscribed the words, TO GOD THE UNKNOWN. It is this God whom you are worshipping in ignorance that I am here to proclaim to you!
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 17:22-24&version=PHILLIPS

do you honestly believe that Paul did not proclaim the true God to them?
I don't think you do, since you believe the Bible.

Catholicism vs Protestantism

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