Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Wansvic

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do we want only those with absolutely perfect understanding of the scriptures to be allowed into heaven?
I think that would be a very harsh measure that would then be applied to us as well!
Perfect understanding of scripture is not the point. However everyone must be born again in order to gain entrance into heaven. Peter's instructions in Acts parallel Jesus stated requirements in John 3:3-5.
 

Wansvic

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John 12:47 If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day. 49 For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."

I think it's talking about the sayings that Jesus was in the habit of saying when he was ministering here on Earth.
I don't think that's talking about the entire Bible.

the father gave Jesus a commandment about what he should speak.
and that commandment results in eternal life.

yet we know that the letter kills, it is the spirit that gives life!


these are the kinds of verses that lead Catholics and Eastern Orthodox to say that it's not up to individual people to receive an understanding of the scriptures privately.

the spirit leads the body of Christ as a whole into all truth,
I think is how they see it.


great scriptures!
and there are other scriptures as well!

Luke 12:47 That servant, who knew his lord's will, and didn't prepare, nor do what he wanted, will be beaten with many stripes, 48 but he who didn't know, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes. To whoever much is given, of him will much be required; and to whom much was entrusted, of him more will be asked.
As you quoted, The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day. Jesus made many statements that relate to the required spiritual rebirth. (John 3:3-5, Luke 24:47-49, Matt 28:19, Acts 22:10) Jesus also made the following comment concerning the word: John
John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Concerning Luke 12:47, it pertains to servant's. Born again Christians are considered the lord's servants. And are expected to fulfill the task set before them and remain steadfast until He returns. Their work will be judged not for salvation but reward. (1 Cor 3:12-15)
 

Wansvic

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yes, it is a possible conclusion.

another reasonable conclusion, imo, is that John's baptism plus this experience was sufficient
John 13:9 Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!" 10 Jesus said to him, "Someone who has bathed only needs to have his feet washed, but is completely clean."
Paul's statement in Acts 19 refutes this understanding and makes it clear everyone must be water baptized in the name of Jesus. It is not optional.


well, technically, Peter says "you", addressing the people asking him the question, "what shall we do?"

the ideas presented are generalizable,
but they are given in a way that is peculiar to the situation.
similar to Jesus saying buy a sword.
Notice Peter's response to "what shall we do?" He gives the specific instructions they are required to obey and goes on to say:

"the promise is for you, your children, and those who are afar off even as many as the Lord shall call." This truth is further evidenced in Acts 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6, 22:16.
the phrase
"the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved",
does that occur in other scriptures?
The exact phrase does not occur. However, is evidenced in the actions of those depicted in Acts 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6, 22:16 as well.

without appealing to tradition, I don't think it's possible to say which Bible or manuscript is the intact word of God.

imo, it's a very similar situation to the question of which books are in the Bible
My point was Jesus' statement lined up with other book content.



well, if I'm following what you're saying, if that's the proper understanding of the passage, then some of the people in Corinth thought they had been baptized in water by Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," "I follow Apollos," "I follow Cephas," and, "I follow Christ."
Not sure. Maybe my thoughts concerning this scripture are wrong. Had thought maybe one of the four realized they belonged to Christ regardless of who baptized them.
 

Wansvic

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it seems very strange to me


it seems very strange to me that the holy Spirit would come and live inside of an unregenerate person, if I understand what you're saying right.
I've provided scripture that clearly shows people received the Holy Spirit before and other times after getting water baptized. I don't claim to understand the specifics behind it. However, at times I have been drawn to the scripture in 1 Thessalonians that would seem to indicate that man's spirit, soul and body must be dwelt with separately. And wondered whether obedience to repentance, water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost caused spiritual realities in connection with the separate parts of man. Any thoughts?:

1 Thess 5:23-24
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it."



seems strange to me, then, that the author tells us that Peter was filled with the spirit in chapter 4, when we already know that from chapter 2.
Acts 4:7 When they had stood them in the middle of them, they inquired, "By what power, or in what name, have you done this?" 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "You rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

and there's this passage, as well
Luke 1:66 All who heard them laid them up in their heart, saying, "What then will this child be?" The hand of the Lord was with him. 67 His father, Zacharias, was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, 68 "Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has visited and worked redemption for his people;
Acts 4:7 would seem to be clarifying that because Peter was a Spirit filled believer is why he could be used by God is heal people. Not that he had actually been filled by the Spirit at that specific moment.

As to Zacharias and even John the Baptist their being filled was not the norm. Only after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection were people filled with the Holy Spirit as part of the spiritual rebirth experience.
I'm not quite following your reasoning there.

the disciples in Ephesus that Paul is talking to had only been baptized with John's baptism.

acts doesn't call them believers, it says disciples.
critical? possibly.
Paul does say that they believed, but it isn't clear about what they believed, imo.
Paul's question indicated that believing and receiving the Holy Ghost took place separately. Period.
His comment had nothing to do with their interaction afterward.

Consider, however, that they believed Paul's message and the need for them to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and obeyed. After doing so, Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. Receiving the Holy Ghost was indeed a separate experience as depicted.


I think in the situation with Cornelius and again with the Samaritans, God wanted the same apostlic agents (Peter in both cases?) involved.
Aside from who was used, the story conveys that believing and receiving the Holy Ghost take place separately.



as I read the Bible, I see many different descriptions of the ways that sins are forgiven, salvation, and filling/baptism of the holy Spirit.
I am aware of circumstances where Jesus forgave sins while He was on the earth. But am unaware of any scriptures that contradicts one another. Please share those you have seen.


do you see baptism as a commandment?
if so, do you believe that Jesus came to replace the ritual commandments of the Old testament with a new set of ritual commandments?
Yes water baptism is a command as seen in the many scriptures I have shared.

Jesus came to fulfill the OT law. After His death, burial and resurrection the NT mandate was put into place. God has always required man's obedience to his covenant responsibility. In the NT that is repentance and submitting to water baptism after accepting Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost is a God given provision.
 

Jackson123

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this is an example
John 11:11 He said these things, and after that, he said to them, "Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep." 12 The disciples therefore said, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he spoke of taking rest in sleep. 14 So Jesus said to them plainly then, "Lazarus is dead."


this is an example
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind; for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin; 2 that you no longer should live the rest of your time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past time doing the desire of the Gentiles, and having walked in lewdness, lusts, drunken binges, orgies, carousings, and abominable idolatries. 4 They think it is strange that you don't run with them into the same excess of riot, blaspheming: 5 who will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit.


then, and I mean this as gently as possible,
I believe you have misunderstood the passage.

Matthew 22:31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven't you read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 33 When the multitudes heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

possibly a parallel passage will shed more light
Luke 20:37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he called the Lord 'The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all are alive to him." 39 Some of the scribes answered, "Teacher, you speak well."


I believe you were referring to the people in Hades.

it's an example of people who are not physically alive and are conscious, able to hear the gospel.


I don't think there is one.

earlier, we talked about other issues of spiritual importance:
celebrating Christmas and having Christmas trees.

I believe we agreed that there is no clear biblical passage against those things,
so they are okay.

to me, then, and again I want to say this gently,
it's only fair to apply the same reasoning to asking people in heaven to pray with you.
Ok my brother Dan, the Bible say dead is sleep, so if billion people ask them to pray with them, when they sleep.
And you say, god preach to the dead in hades.

That is different story. God not ya. God talk to Lazarus and he wake up, can we?

About not pray with the dead, that is my reason not to. And you never critized catholic pray to, not only pray with.

About celebrate Christmas why not same as pray to thebdeadZ.

I just eat mango and it not in the Bible Jackson prohibit eat mango or Bible give permission for me to eat mango but I ate it

I don't want to pray to the dead, people n the history of the Bible never I read about people pray to the dead, but in my country every day I see people pray to the dead.

And I believe catholic is pagan not Christian, that is why they do like pagan, pray to the dead.
 
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Baptism is like a wedding ring when you get married. The rings symbolise the commitment you have made to each other. As you wear it everyone can see that you are married. If you don't have a wedding ring, you're still married. If you have committed your life to Christ, it is by grace alone you are saved. All the things you do after that, including baptism is our way to return our thanks to God. After all, the criminal on the cross who asked Jesus "remember me" was promised he would be in heaven. He had no time to get baptised or do any good dead. All he had time for is to ask for forgiveness.
 
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It seems likely that the reference to witnesses does not mean spectators but rather what was just presented in the previous chapter. Chapter 11 is a witness/record of the things people accomplished by placing their trust in God knowing that He would see them through no matter what they faced. Their faith pushed them to obey Him.

NT:3144 martus (mar'-toos); of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [genitive case]); by analogy, a "martyr":
KJV - martyr, record, witness.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary)
I think that is good exegesis. I am thinking that the image of being surrounded by a cloud of people who were with Christ is this
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with
the Lord.
 

Dan_473

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Perfect understanding of scripture is not the point. However everyone must be born again in order to gain entrance into heaven. Peter's instructions in Acts parallel Jesus stated requirements in John 3:3-5.
I believe my post was in response to your question here
@Dan_473 Some of your posts seem to indicate one's interpretation of the bible will be a factor in judgment. Is that what you believe?
I agree that a person must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

but how or when God decides to "born a person again" is up to him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.
 

Wansvic

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Baptism is like a wedding ring when you get married. The rings symbolise the commitment you have made to each other. As you wear it everyone can see that you are married. If you don't have a wedding ring, you're still married. If you have committed your life to Christ, it is by grace alone you are saved. All the things you do after that, including baptism is our way to return our thanks to God. After all, the criminal on the cross who asked Jesus "remember me" was promised he would be in heaven. He had no time to get baptised or do any good dead. All he had time for is to ask for forgiveness.
The thief was not required to follow the NT mandate. Water baptism became necessary in connection with the spiritual rebirth after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.
 

Wansvic

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I think that is good exegesis. I am thinking that the image of being surrounded by a cloud of people who were with Christ is this
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The clouds spoken of in this scripture refer to the actual sky. Take a look at the previous verse. Verse 16 speaks of Jesus' coming down from heaven, a reference to the sky, followed by a shout. His shout will awaken the dead in Christ in their graves and they will rise to meet Him first. Then people who are still alive at His appearing will rise up into the sky along with those who rose first and together they will all meet the Lord in the air.

1 Thess 4:16-17
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
 

Jackson123

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Wedding dress is a figurative analogy of a soul prepared to unite eternally with Jesus.
Yes and how to prepare? I believe by having faith in Jesus that follow up by abide in Him, than it will produce fruits
 

Dan_473

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As you quoted, The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day. Jesus made many statements that relate to the required spiritual rebirth. (John 3:3-5, Luke 24:47-49, Matt 28:19, Acts 22:10)
yes, I agree that being born again is required to enter the kingdom of God.

46And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. 47It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations,f beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ 48You are witnesses of all these things.

49“And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as my Father promised. But stay here in the city until the Holy Spirit comes and fills you with power from heaven.”
https://biblehub.com/nlt/luke/24.htm

as I read this, it doesn't talk directly about being born again.
I agree that it relates to being born again in the sense that this passage speaks about forgiveness of sins and the coming of the holy Spirit, which both relate to being born again.

I think there is a similar situation at the end of Matthew 28.
yes, it talks about baptism, which relates to being born again in the sense that all aspects of the Christian Life are related.
do you believe that all references to baptisms are references to being born again?

Acts 22:10 I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' The Lord said to me, 'Arise, and go into Damascus. There you will be told about all things which are appointed for you to do.'

does the book of Acts say that Paul is instructed to be baptized?
or just that he is baptized?
since there are several accounts of Paul's conversion, I'm not sure.

to me, the situation is similar to that of the Philippian jailer
Acts 16:24 who, having received such a command, threw them into the inner prison, and secured their feet in the stocks. 25 But about midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were loosened. 27 The jailer, being roused out of sleep and seeing the prison doors open, drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, "Don't harm yourself, for we are all here!" 29 He called for lights and sprang in, and, fell down trembling before Paul and Silas, 30 and brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

very interesting situation here, imo.
the question is almost identical to what Peter is asked at Pentecost,
but Paul responds with a somewhat different answer
Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 They spoke the word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his house. 33 He took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes, and was immediately baptized, he and all his household.
34 He brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his household, having believed in God.

Jesus also made the following comment concerning the word: John

John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
we may wish to compare this with the passage above
"They spoke the word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his house."

Paul and Silas spoke the entire Bible to them?

Concerning Luke 12:47, it pertains to servant's. Born again Christians are considered the lord's servants. And are expected to fulfill the task set before them and remain steadfast until He returns. Their work will be judged not for salvation but reward. (1 Cor 3:12-15)
I agree that the parable describes servants.

do you perceive that God beats you and whips you?

regarding salvation,
do you believe God uses the same absolute standard for everyone,
including those who do not have a Bible in their language?
 

Dan_473

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Paul's statement in Acts 19 refutes this understanding and makes it clear everyone must be water baptized in the name of Jesus.
I disagree.
can you think of ways in which the situation is different for the disciples in Ephesus in Acts 19 compared to the apostles in the upper room?

It is not optional.

Notice Peter's response to "what shall we do?" He gives the specific instructions
of course, Paul gives somewhat different instructions to the Philippian jailer.

if you believe there is a specific algorithm that must be followed for salvation, doesn't it seem strange that the Bible describes salvation in so many different ways?

1 Timothy 2:14 Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; 15 but she will be saved through her childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.

they are required to obey and goes on to say:

"the promise is for you, your children, and those who are afar off even as many as the Lord shall call."
is it a promise, or a commandment?

This truth is further evidenced in Acts 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6, 22:16.
do those passages state that the people involved were baptized in order to obtain salvation?

The exact phrase does not occur.
that's correct.

and I mean this next part very gently:
without the longer ending of Mark, you lack the "slam dunk" that you would really like the Bible to have.

However, is evidenced in the actions of those depicted in Acts 8:12-17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6, 22:16 as well.
that is true, if one strongly desires to see it there.

as I talked about earlier, wherever the location of a baptism is known, it is outdoors.

using the same approach, then, baptisms must be done outdoors.

My point was Jesus' statement lined up with other book content.
well, in the longer ending of Mark Jesus talks about speaking with "new tongues".
I'm not sure, but I think in all the other Scriptures it says "other tongues".
 

Dan_473

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I've provided scripture that clearly shows people received the Holy Spirit before and other times after getting water baptized. I don't claim to understand the specifics behind it.
that the holy Spirit can be received separately from water baptism indicates to me that forgiveness of sins is sometimes accomplished with water baptism, and sometimes water baptism is done as a sign of the forgiveness of sins.

However, at times I have been drawn to the scripture in 1 Thessalonians that would seem to indicate that man's spirit, soul and body must be dwelt with separately. And wondered whether obedience to repentance, water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost caused spiritual realities in connection with the separate parts of man. Any thoughts?:
thanks for asking!

I think Paul is simply giving a blessing, and in most languages it sounds nice if you use the
"rule of three".

like this
1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

three phrases,
the first one has a string of three adjectives...
maybe the three adjectives refer to the three persons of the Godhead,
or maybe it just gives it a musical sound.

Acts 4:7 would seem to be clarifying that because Peter was a Spirit filled believer is why he could be used by God is heal people. Not that he had actually been filled by the Spirit at that specific moment.

As to Zacharias and even John the Baptist their being filled was not the norm. Only after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection were people filled with the Holy Spirit as part of the spiritual rebirth experience.
I think this brings up an important idea about Bible understanding.

the Bible is a really big book.
it says a lot of things about a lot of different things,
sometimes in the same way, sometimes in different ways.

suppose we use the analogy of a giant jigsaw puzzle.
a person says, "these two pieces fit together, and then that allows this third piece to fit, and pretty soon you've got most of the pieces fitting together.
then just take the remaining pieces and apply some extra pressure, and they fit too."

then someone else says, "if you change around some of the earlier pieces, then you don't have to apply that pressure to those other remaining pieces."

of course, the second person also has pieces left over...

Paul's question indicated that believing and receiving the Holy Ghost took place separately. Period.

His comment had nothing to do with their interaction afterward.


Consider, however, that they believed Paul's message and the need for them to be re-baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and obeyed. After doing so, Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost. Receiving the Holy Ghost was indeed a separate experience as depicted.
again, the passage in Acts doesn't say what they believed.
different believers sometimes believe different things
Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

Aside from who was used, the story conveys that believing and receiving the Holy Ghost take place separately.
about receiving the holy Spirit, John has this to say
John 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit! 23 Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
(Thomas wasn't with them, does he not receive the holy Spirit?)

I think it is interesting that Paul is confident that everyone that 1 Corinthians is addressed to is baptized with the spirit
1 Corinthians 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

I am aware of circumstances where Jesus forgave sins while He was on the earth. But am unaware of any scriptures that contradicts one another. Please share those you have seen.
contradictions, no.
but some pretty good paradoxes, imo
James 5:14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, 15 and the prayer of faith will save him who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Yes water baptism is a command as seen in the many scriptures I have shared.

Jesus came to fulfill the OT law. After His death, burial and resurrection the NT mandate was put into place. God has always required man's obedience to his covenant responsibility. In the NT that is repentance and submitting to water baptism after accepting Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost is a God given provision.
if you believe that Jesus came to replace the rituals and ordinances of the old covenant
with a different ritual done in a specific method with a specific phrase said at the same time,
then I think you aren't grasping the New covenant.

focusing on letters brings death
it's the spirit that gives life.

(and of course, I say all of the above in a gentle, friendly tone.)
 

Wansvic

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yes, I agree that being born again is required to enter the kingdom of God.

46And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. 47It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations,f beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ 48You are witnesses of all these things.

49“And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as my Father promised. But stay here in the city until the Holy Spirit comes and fills you with power from heaven.”
https://biblehub.com/nlt/luke/24.htm

as I read this, it doesn't talk directly about being born again.
I agree that it relates to being born again in the sense that this passage speaks about forgiveness of sins and the coming of the holy Spirit, which both relate to being born again.

I think there is a similar situation at the end of Matthew 28.
yes, it talks about baptism, which relates to being born again in the sense that all aspects of the Christian Life are related.
do you believe that all references to baptisms are references to being born again?
The scripture you quote is from the NLT bible. The NLT is a paraphrase not a literal translation such was the KJV. Therefore, the verses meaning is distorted.

Notice what the actual scripture states and how it differs from the paraphrase in the NLT:
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47

After a thorough study of all scriptures relating to water baptism, it's connection to repentance and remission of sins is clearly seen. However, only after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection was anyone instructed to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Jesus' statement above is evidence of this truth.
 

Dan_473

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Ok my brother Dan, the Bible say dead is sleep, so if billion people ask them to pray with them, when they sleep.
And you say, god preach to the dead in hades.

That is different story. God not ya. God talk to Lazarus and he wake up, can we?

About not pray with the dead, that is my reason not to. And you never critized catholic pray to, not only pray with.

About celebrate Christmas why not same as pray to thebdeadZ.

I just eat mango and it not in the Bible Jackson prohibit eat mango or Bible give permission for me to eat mango but I ate it

I don't want to pray to the dead, people n the history of the Bible never I read about people pray to the dead, but in my country every day I see people pray to the dead.

And I believe catholic is pagan not Christian, that is why they do like pagan, pray to the dead.
well, my wonderful brother Jackson, it's hard for me to make sense out of many of your sentences there,
so it's hard for me to follow your logic.

big picture,
there is no passage in the scriptures that say it is wrong to ask Christians in heaven to pray with you, imo.