Never thought of it that way, but that insight actually makes a lot of sense...
Believers are said to cross from life into life, said to "never die".
How will one who didn't love their neighbor be one with all creation in love of God.
Catholicism vs Protestantism
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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Never thought of it that way, but that insight actually makes a lot of sense...
Believers are said to cross from life into life, said to "never die".
How will one who didn't love their neighbor be one with all creation in love of God.
My brother, I don't have parent anymore if there no chasm between me and my parent I will talk to them every day, the fact is it never happen, when they are living, they like to talk to me, give me direction how to life or how to work, my dad was handyman he always teach me how to repair a lot of thing, if I am able to talk to him, nochasm between us, he will be happy to show me how to repair a lot of thing, from make a new key when you lost it etc.
Again, after his departure I lost contact, because there is chasm between us.
All judgment comes from an established set of rules. Jesus said judgement will based upon what the word actually says not what a person thinks it says. (John 12:48) The prophecy of scripture is of no private interpretation according to Peter 1:20. And, Proverbs 14:10 says, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
If your understanding was correct than there would be no scriptures indicating there is a specific way to enter and that few will find it.
Luke 13:23-24
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Matt 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matt 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 7:26-27
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
as far as I know, the Bible doesn't state one way or the other.
so, since some passages speak of people being asleep,
and some speak of the Dead being conscious,
it seems to me the reasonable conclusion is sleep is used to describe death as a euphemism,
because dead people look like they are asleep.
what does it mean to you that God is the God of the living, not of the Dead?
yes, and they are dead people who are not asleep.
the thing we are discussing currently is the idea of
pray with.
many English-speaking people get confused about the idea of prayer, and praying to.
are you agreeing that
praying with
is okay?
no.
I'm saying that if you know of a scripture passage that shows that asking Christians in heaven to pray with you is against the Bible,
please post it.
John 12:47 If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day. 49 For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
I think it's talking about the sayings that Jesus was in the habit of saying when he was ministering here on Earth.
I don't think that's talking about the entire Bible.
the father gave Jesus a commandment about what he should speak.
and that commandment results in eternal life.
yet we know that the letter kills, it is the spirit that gives life!
these are the kinds of verses that lead Catholics and Eastern Orthodox to say that it's not up to individual people to receive an understanding of the scriptures privately.
the spirit leads the body of Christ as a whole into all truth,
I think is how they see it.
great scriptures!
and there are other scriptures as well!
Luke 12:47 That servant, who knew his lord's will, and didn't prepare, nor do what he wanted, will be beaten with many stripes, 48 but he who didn't know, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes. To whoever much is given, of him will much be required; and to whom much was entrusted, of him more will be asked.
After knowing that Lazarus could not minister to him
why did the rich man believe Lazarus could minister to his living brothers?
.
In what verse?
In what verse?
It mean God is the leader of all living, has power to all living.
spiritual dead. When Adam eat the forbidden fruit, he was dead, but physicallypraying with is ok live for some years.
No, I don't
I am not remember, but I don't know in the Bible a story about the living ask to pray with physically dead
He can believe what ever he want, but that doesn't mean true.
Muslim believe Allah doesn't have son, but He has Son, Jesus is
Believe one thing doesn't mean it true
I agree with all that.
Jackson, isn't it odd that Jesus would insert a detail in a parable that was untrue and support a future false doctrine?
I don't understand what you mean.
Let say parable of wedding party. The boss call every body, than not every body accepted because some not wear party dress. Is that real story?
One can conclude that the apostles were baptized in the name of Jesus on the Day of Pentecost. Due to the fact that prior to Jesus’ ascension He stated that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name BEGINNING in Jerusalem. The connection between water baptism and repentance and remission of sin was first spoken of by John the Baptist (Luke 3:3) The message, given on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem, was the first record stating that EVERYONE was required to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.
Are you implying Peter’s message was only for those gathered at Pentecost?
The message of one's need to believe and get baptized in order to be saved at the end of Mark is seen in other scripture. Therefore its authenticity is a mute point. Even so I believe God’s word is intact.
Those addressed in Paul’s epistles were already born again Christians. This truth is seen in that the letters were sent to churches he had established during previous ministry trips. Various letters give detailed information concerning what actually occurred during their rebirth experience in baptism. As well as giving guidance concerning the fundamentals of ministry tools and conduct expected from born again Christians.
I do not find it odd that Paul baptized only a few people. Ministerial responsibilities are commonly divided among the members of the body. Ministries complement one another. This principle is witnessed in various parts of the bible, as well as in the story you reference. The evangelist Philip baptized the Samaritans while Peter and John came days later and assisted in their receiving the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:12-17) The Ephesians Paul met on the road were labeled disciples indicating someone had ministered to them about God. No doubt Paul’s journey was God ordained. Paul explained and assisted them in obtaining their spiritual rebirth. (Acts 19) This concept is seen in Peter’s interaction with Cornelius as well. (Acts 10)
Paul's comments in 1 Cor. 1-15 indicate that people were associating themselves with the disciples who baptized them. He made it clear that the one that was crucified for them and in whose name their baptism was performed was in fact to whom they belonged.
No you did not misunderstand me. I did speak in tongues prior to being water baptized in the name of Jesus.
My experience is consistent with the word. The requirement that everyone must comply with Peter's instructions is imperative not the order in which they occur:
Acts 2 - 120 in upper room Holy Ghost 1st - water baptism in the name of Jesus afterward (Per Luke 24:47) Other people present - water baptism and receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost had to have occurred (See Acts 2:41)
Acts 8: 12-17 Water baptism 1st - Holy Ghost afterward
Acts 10:44-48 Holy Ghost 1st - water baptism afterward
Acts 19:2-6 John's water baptism - Re-baptized in the name of Jesus 1st - Holy Ghost received afterward
Acts 9:12 and 22:16 Holy Ghost 1st - water baptism afterward
Yes, being baptized in the Spirit and filled with the Spirit is one in the same. Notice Peter's crucial statements made to the Jewish Council below. First, notice that Peter states an angel told Cornelius that Peter was going to tell him how to be saved. (See Acts 10:44-48) Secondly, he points to the fact that the infilling of the Holy Ghost by Jews at Pentecost and what the Gentiles experienced was in fact the baptism of the Holy Ghost that John had spoken of.
Acts 11:13-17
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
KJV
If so, why did Paul ask the Ephesians if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed? This statement confirms belief and the infilling of the Holy Ghost are distinct from one another.
Another confirmation of this is seen in Acts 8:12-17. The Samaritans believed Philip's message but did not receive the Holy Ghost. Apparently Philip realized evidence accompanied the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Evidently no evidence was forth coming so he sent for Peter and John who came later and laid hands on those who had been water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and they received the Holy Ghost.
this is an example
John 11:11 He said these things, and after that, he said to them, "Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep." 12 The disciples therefore said, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he spoke of taking rest in sleep. 14 So Jesus said to them plainly then, "Lazarus is dead."
this is an example
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind; for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin; 2 that you no longer should live the rest of your time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past time doing the desire of the Gentiles, and having walked in lewdness, lusts, drunken binges, orgies, carousings, and abominable idolatries. 4 They think it is strange that you don't run with them into the same excess of riot, blaspheming: 5 who will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit.
then, and I mean this as gently as possible,
I believe you have misunderstood the passage.
Matthew 22:31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven't you read that which was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." 33 When the multitudes heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.
"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
possibly a parallel passage will shed more light
Luke 20:37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he called the Lord 'The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38 Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all are alive to him." 39 Some of the scribes answered, "Teacher, you speak well."
I believe you were referring to the people in Hades.
it's an example of people who are not physically alive and are conscious, able to hear the gospel.
I don't think there is one.
earlier, we talked about other issues of spiritual importance:
celebrating Christmas and having Christmas trees.
I believe we agreed that there is no clear biblical passage against those things,
so they are okay.
to me, then, and again I want to say this gently,
it's only fair to apply the same reasoning to asking people in heaven to pray with you.
My understanding of the scripture's reference to the dead is those who are actually alive in the flesh but dead spiritually since their sins have not been forgiven.
It makes me think of Jesus statement in Luke:
"And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." Luke 9:60
yes, it is a possible conclusion.
another reasonable conclusion, imo, is that John's baptism plus this experience was sufficient
John 13:9 Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!" 10 Jesus said to him, "Someone who has bathed only needs to have his feet washed, but is completely clean."
well, technically, Peter says "you", addressing the people asking him the question, "what shall we do?"
the ideas presented are generalizable,
but they are given in a way that is peculiar to the situation.
similar to Jesus saying buy a sword.
the phrase
"the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved",
does that occur in other scriptures?
without appealing to tradition, I don't think it's possible to say which Bible or manuscript is the intact word of God.
imo, it's a very similar situation to the question of which books are in the Bible.
at the time that he preached to them, though, I don't think they were born again.
well, myself, I think it is very odd that if Jesus commanded all believers to baptize,
that Paul says
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Good News--not in wisdom of words, so that the cross of Christ wouldn't be made void.
well, if I'm following what you're saying, if that's the proper understanding of the passage, then some of the people in Corinth thought they had been baptized in water by Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," "I follow Apollos," "I follow Cephas," and, "I follow Christ."
It seems likely that the reference to witnesses does not mean spectators but rather what was just presented in the previous chapter. Chapter 11 is a witness/record of the things people accomplished by placing their trust in God knowing that He would see them through no matter what they faced. Their faith pushed them to obey Him.
NT:3144 martus (mar'-toos); of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [genitive case]); by analogy, a "martyr":
KJV - martyr, record, witness.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary)
it seems very strange to me that the holy Spirit would come and live inside of an unregenerate person, if I understand what you're saying right.
seems strange to me, then, that the author tells us that Peter was filled with the spirit in chapter 4, when we already know that from chapter 2.
Acts 4:7 When they had stood them in the middle of them, they inquired, "By what power, or in what name, have you done this?" 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "You rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
and there's this passage, as well
Luke 1:66 All who heard them laid them up in their heart, saying, "What then will this child be?" The hand of the Lord was with him. 67 His father, Zacharias, was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying, 68 "Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has visited and worked redemption for his people;
I'm not quite following your reasoning there.
the disciples in Ephesus that Paul is talking to had only been baptized with John's baptism.
acts doesn't call them believers, it says disciples.
critical? possibly.
Paul does say that they believed, but it isn't clear about what they believed, imo.
I think in the situation with Cornelius and again with the Samaritans, God wanted the same apostlic agents (Peter in both cases?) involved.
it seems strange to us today, but at the time, to the Jewish way of thinking, gentiles and Samaritans being part of the kingdom was virtually unthinkable.
as I read the Bible, I see many different descriptions of the ways that sins are forgiven, salvation, and filling/baptism of the holy Spirit.
I think it's important to remember when reading the Bible not to focus excessively on particular words or a single book.
I remember a very godly Bible reading elder once telling me to look at the Bibles in the pew of a church and see if they are worn out in a certain section.
sure enough, when I went home and looked at our family bible, the section of 1st Corinthians 12 to 14 was worn out.
it was clearly dirtier and had been thumbed to much more frequently than any other section.
do you see baptism as a commandment?
if so, do you believe that Jesus came to replace the ritual commandments of the Old testament with a new set of ritual commandments?
that's possible.
myself, I think it's more likely that Peter is referring to something earlier in the same letter
1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he also went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
it looks to me like it's talking about people who were physically alive in the time of Noah.