By Works

[Chester]

Hello again Chester, the Reformers used the different "Sola's" (as a way of looking at the same idea from different perspectives), but they all really meant the same thing, that we are saved by Christ Alone, by the works that 'He' did on our behalf alone (His perfectly righteous life, His death of the Cross, His Resurrection), and not by anything that we do ourselves.

It's true that the Bible does not use the phrase salvation by faith or by grace alone, but I believe that they are clearly implied by the text, don't you

Romans 4​

5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.​

​

Romans 11​

6 If it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. ​

​

Ephesians 2​

8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;​

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.​

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

​

Titus 3​

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.​

Here is an interesting article that takes a quick (and somewhat humorous) look at the particular aspect of the Reformation's 5 Solas that I mentioned above.

The Soul of the Solas​

~Deut

 

[Chester]

Hello again Chester, the Reformers used the different "Sola's" (as a way of looking at the same idea from different perspectives), but they all really meant the same thing, that we are saved by Christ Alone, by the works that 'He' did on our behalf alone (His perfectly righteous life, His death of the Cross, His Resurrection), and not by anything that we do ourselves.

It's true that the Bible does not use the phrase salvation by faith or by grace alone, but I believe that they are clearly implied by the text, don't you

Romans 4​

5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.​

​

Romans 11​

6 If it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. ​

​

Ephesians 2​

8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;​

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.​

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

​

Titus 3​

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.​

Here is an interesting article that takes a quick (and somewhat humorous) look at the particular aspect of the Reformation's 5 Solas that I mentioned above.

The Soul of the Solas​

~Deut

If the text does not say it clearly, I will not put it in my doctrinal statement. And the text does not state by grace alone or by faith alone. To say they are "clearly implied by the text" might be correct if you interpret the 5 solas Biblically.

But here is the problem:
This approach begins with a statement such as: "I believe in the 5 solas" - which means that the person is believing whatever he thinks the 5 solas mean. Then he goes to the Scriptures and molds his interpretation of Scripture into what he thinks the 5 solas mean.

Scripture, and not a stated doctrinal creed, will always be my starting point.

You will not find me using the 5 solas. They have been and are being used for all kind of doctrinal teaching contrary to direct Biblical teaching. Or, more often, beginning with a doctrinal creed causes a person to see only one side of Scripture and miss the rest!

The article you link is interesting and well-written, but to say the 5 solas all say the same thing: Well actually they don't - unless you read an article that explains it that way - and now you are even further away from the Biblical text!

I take only one of them: Salvation by faith alone - and I see the lukewarmness, frivolity, and pain it has caused in our world - and I will not go near the 5 solas - but that is my opinion, you may have yours!

 

[Chester]

My point is that, if James was in the OT, we would have no problem regarding his instructions as similar to how we regard Genesis 17:14, about circumcision. It was directed to the Jews but not us.

But even though James clearly directed to the 12 tribes of Israel, just because its located in the NT, we try all kinds of means to incorporate that into Christianity.

But it is not in the Old Testament and it is directed to Jewish Christians (my opinion), and so none of your reasoning holds . . . . .

 

[Chester]

We are saved by grace..after salvation work follows...we are recognised by God..therefore can please him...we should also bear fruit of the Spirit..Jesus should shine out of a believers heart....after all the Lord has taken up residence there.

Quite simple..nothing complicated...I submit my will to his will....trust gets stronger and stronger when one is continually focused on God....and walking in the Spirit.

Some good thoughts, and often it depends on how you define salvation.

I think Biblical salvation is a process that begins with initial justification and continues on as God saves us from a life of sinful living and finally saves us from hell and we enter heaven.

So I simply say we are saved by grace through faith and not of works - but we are God's workmanship. Works are not an after-product but are an important piece of the Christian life from its very beginning.

 

[Guojing]

But it is not in the Old Testament and it is directed to Jewish Christians (my opinion), and so none of your reasoning holds . . . . .

Well, the 12 tribes has always referred to Israel. They are not Jewish Christians, at least when James was written

 

[Duskey]

By Works! (James 2)

Not By Works (John 3:16, Romans 10:9)

 

[Chester]

Not By Works (John 3:16, Romans 10:9)

By Works
and
Not By Works

(or reverse the order if you like - both are stated in Scripture)

 

[Chester]

Well, the 12 tribes has always referred to Israel. They are not Jewish Christians, at least when James was written

There were no Jewish Christians in the first century? Read the book of Acts . . .

 

[Guojing]

There were no Jewish Christians in the first century? Read the book of Acts . . .

So, in your view, Jews who believe Jesus is their promised Messiah are called Christians?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Salvation, as you define it above, (and I agree) is about being saved from our sinful life. There is the initial new birth, and then there is the ongoing walk of faith as we live for God doing good works instead of living in the misery of sin and slavery to the Devil. Ultimately heaven will be the final phase of salvation. But in all of these God is always the starting point: the author and the finisher of our faith.

We were not saved by works, are not being saved by good works, and will not ever be saved by good works: but living in victory above sin necessarily will involve living a life of good works. It is not disconnected from faith: but is integral to and intertwined with it.

I believe God forgives sin for the believer immediately when the sin is committed. Why? Because the believer is trusting in the finished blood atonement of Jesus Christ which is 100% full payment for sin. He never writes the sin down on our record: It is forgiven!

I grew up thinking that when I sin God writes it down in heaven to damn me, but when I ask for forgiveness then he takes that sin off my record. Of course, this resulted in a horrific battle with assurance.[/QUOTE


The way that I understand it is that those that Christ died for on the cross are forgiven for every sin that they will ever commit. Jesus paid their price in full, as far as their eternal inheritance is concerned, and every one of those he died for will live eternally in heaven with him. God will, by his grace, sometime in their lives, give them a new heart and mind, along with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, resulting in being born again with a spiritual life.

Paul tells us, although we are born again, we still have a battle within us of the Spirit against our fleshly nature that we inherited from Adam. We do, at times, lose the battle by the desires of our fleshly nature and commit sinful acts. God chastens us, and pricks our new heart to repent, and by his forgiveness of that sin, he delivers (saves us in a timely sense) from suffering the effects of that sin, by reinstating us in a fellowship with him.

During our disobedience, we never lose our inheritance of an eternal life with him, due to the fact that after Christ died for the sins of those that his Father gave him, God looks upon them as holy and without blame.

The doctrine that Jesus taught was, by the majority, of his born again children, confusing, and hard to understand, and remains so, even unto this day and time. John 6:60, Many therefore of his disciples, when they heard this, said, this is an hard saying, who can hear it?

 

[Corban]

I don't mind explaining myself and my position.
What I was trying to show was the two different scriptures you used had to do with works of the law and not works of faith, which is what James was writing about.
I went on to explain how faith works.
It is true, James never mentions the word, "saved", but in the KJV he does mention "save" a few times. One of which I quoted in my post to you.
"Like James said in chapter 2, verse 14, without WORKS OF FAITH, can faith alone save him?"
That is one of the five places where James mentions the word "save".
And the main reason why I used salvation so much, is mostly because many on this forum can't see beyond salvation, as that is all they know.
The person I was talking about is not a wolf in sheep's clothing because he is an unbeliever, but because of what he did and the motive behind it.
Such as asking my wife and I for a loan to cover the cost of a vehicle he purchased for our daughter without getting her approval, then trying to make it look like he never got the money. This was after he was super nice to us, inspecting our vehicle for free and other things.
The good guy's wife you are referring to is both my wife and I.
I did not find the gift appropriate, seeing we didn't know the guy for very long and we knew for what purpose the gift was given.
It was to buy his way into my wife's graces, as the man wanted to date our daughter, and neither of us approved of him, and he knew that.
And I'm not one who believes fine jewelry, clothing, and makeup is a sin.
I give my wife what ever she wants to make herself beautiful.
I am all for the children of God having the finer things in life.

Well thank you for explaining that. It just shows that I shouldn't judge. I can't retract my posting, but if I had this information, I certainly would have worded it differently. Please accept my apology.

Go well and God bless.

 

[Chester]

The way that I understand it is that those that Christ died for on the cross are forgiven for every sin that they will ever commit. Jesus paid their price in full, as far as their eternal inheritance is concerned, and every one of those he died for will live eternally in heaven with him. God will, by his grace, sometime in their lives, give them a new heart and mind, along with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, resulting in being born again with a spiritual life.

Paul tells us, although we are born again, we still have a battle within us of the Spirit against our fleshly nature that we inherited from Adam. We do, at times, lose the battle by the desires of our fleshly nature and commit sinful acts. God chastens us, and pricks our new heart to repent, and by his forgiveness of that sin, he delivers (saves us in a timely sense) from suffering the effects of that sin, by reinstating us in a fellowship with him.

During our disobedience, we never lose our inheritance of an eternal life with him, due to the fact that after Christ died for the sins of those that his Father gave him, God looks upon them as holy and without blame.

The doctrine that Jesus taught was, by the majority, of his born again children, confusing, and hard to understand, and remains so, even unto this day and time. John 6:60, Many therefore of his disciples, when they heard this, said, this is an hard saying, who can hear it?

ForestGreenCook:
(1) First a technical point - you likely noticed this too - on your post #50 you must have deleted a bracket around QUOTE or something like that because I had to click on the "Click to Expand" option to see what you wrote.

(2) I probably differ from you on a few minor issues
(a) Though Jesus absolutely did die for all of my sins, that atonement is because I am believing in Him. If I am not believing in his shed blood as atonement for my sin, then I am not forgiven for my sin. Or simply put as I say often on CC - The believer has forgiveness and heaven. The unbeliever has no forgiveness and hell. I find no Scripture that my future sins are forgiven because of an event in the past.
(b) You seem to use the words flesh and nature interchangeably. I believe that the old nature/man was crucified with Christ and is dead and gone. We have been resurrected with Christ and have a new nature/man in Christ Jesus. But we do still have the flesh and this is where we live in a daily battle.

I absolutely agree that for the Christian God forgives our disobedience and even when we sin we are still a child of God. Our salvation is completely by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus Christ. But for the person who does not believe in Jesus Christ, he is not a child of God and has no forgiveness.

 

[Chester]

So, in your view, Jews who believe Jesus is their promised Messiah are called Christians?

Jews who believe in Jesus their promised Messiah are Christians by definition of the word "Christian." But they are also still Jews by ethnicity and culture. And they can be called Messianic Christians, or Jewish Christians, or "of the 12 tribes of Israel", etc.

 

[know1]

Well thank you for explaining that. It just shows that I shouldn't judge. I can't retract my posting, but if I had this information, I certainly would have worded it differently. Please accept my apology.

Go well and God bless.

No apology is necessary, as no offense was taken.
Still, even though you didn't do anything wrong in my eyes, it was a gracious godly gesture.
It's not like I haven't made the same error... like yesterday?!!

 

[ForestGreenCook]

ForestGreenCook:
(1) First a technical point - you likely noticed this too - on your post #50 you must have deleted a bracket around QUOTE or something like that because I had to click on the "Click to Expand" option to see what you wrote.

(2) I probably differ from you on a few minor issues
(a) Though Jesus absolutely did die for all of my sins, that atonement is because I am believing in Him. If I am not believing in his shed blood as atonement for my sin, then I am not forgiven for my sin. Or simply put as I say often on CC - The believer has forgiveness and heaven. The unbeliever has no forgiveness and hell. I find no Scripture that my future sins are forgiven because of an event in the past.
(b) You seem to use the words flesh and nature interchangeably. I believe that the old nature/man was crucified with Christ and is dead and gone. We have been resurrected with Christ and have a new nature/man in Christ Jesus. But we do still have the flesh and this is where we live in a daily battle.

I absolutely agree that for the Christian God forgives our disobedience and even when we sin we are still a child of God. Our salvation is completely by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus Christ. But for the person who does not believe in Jesus Christ, he is not a child of God and has no forgiveness.

Respectfully, could you give me some scripture that explains why you believe that Christ's atonement on the cross is because you believe in him?

My understanding of the new birth is that; Based on Eph 2:1-5, we were all born naturally into this world as children of wrath and at sometime in our lives, God quickened (gave new life to us) while we were still spiritually dead (Eph 2:5), and unable to discern anything of a spiritual nature, 1 Cor 2:14, such as believing in spiritual things, until we are born again, by God's sovereign grace, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Our spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, (Gal 6:22) which we do not have until we are born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The faith in Eph 2:8, is not our faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ (Gal 2:20).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

ForestGreenCook:
(1) First a technical point - you likely noticed this too - on your post #50 you must have deleted a bracket around QUOTE or something like that because I had to click on the "Click to Expand" option to see what you wrote.

(2) I probably differ from you on a few minor issues
(a) Though Jesus absolutely did die for all of my sins, that atonement is because I am believing in Him. If I am not believing in his shed blood as atonement for my sin, then I am not forgiven for my sin. Or simply put as I say often on CC - The believer has forgiveness and heaven. The unbeliever has no forgiveness and hell. I find no Scripture that my future sins are forgiven because of an event in the past.
(b) You seem to use the words flesh and nature interchangeably. I believe that the old nature/man was crucified with Christ and is dead and gone. We have been resurrected with Christ and have a new nature/man in Christ Jesus. But we do still have the flesh and this is where we live in a daily battle.

I absolutely agree that for the Christian God forgives our disobedience and even when we sin we are still a child of God. Our salvation is completely by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus Christ. But for the person who does not believe in Jesus Christ, he is not a child of God and has no forgiveness.

I do understand that there is a "fleshly nature" and there is a "spiritual nature". Mankind does not possess a spiritual nature, until he has been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in the new birth.

 

[Chester]

Respectfully, could you give me some scripture that explains why you believe that Christ's atonement on the cross is because you believe in him?

My understanding of the new birth is that; Based on Eph 2:1-5, we were all born naturally into this world as children of wrath and at sometime in our lives, God quickened (gave new life to us) while we were still spiritually dead (Eph 2:5), and unable to discern anything of a spiritual nature, 1 Cor 2:14, such as believing in spiritual things, until we are born again, by God's sovereign grace, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Our spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, (Gal 6:22) which we do not have until we are born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The faith in Eph 2:8, is not our faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ (Gal 2:20).

First let me respond to Gal. 2:20 - It seems you are basing your comment from this verse on the basis of the KJV "I live by the faith of the Son of God." Hence you our concluding this is not our faith, but it is Jesus" faith and then apply this to Eph 2:8 that it is not our faith, but Jesus' faith that is the saving avenue for salvation.

Your take on a KJV preposition is very dubious if you know anything about the Greek wording here. The word "Son" is in the dative case and does not have a preposition with it at all. So it is a matter of interpretation. Many translations say "in the Son of God". To make a doctrinal difference out of an English preposition choice by translators does not seem wise.

I have no problem with your basic analysis of Ephesians 2:1-5. If you correlate it with Romans 6 where Paul speaks of our dying with Christ is where I see that our old nature/man died with Christ.

I am not quite sure about your statement "unable to discern anything of a spiritual nature". I guess I don't know what you are saying or trying to imply - or maybe it is not as pronounced a statement as it seems to be! I Corinthians 2:14 does say that the natural man does not accept/receive the things of the Spirit - and that these things are are spiritually discerned. But your statement seems to go a bit beyond what this verse says - ??

I think Ephesians 2:8 -9 simply teach that God's grace is the starting place of justification. Then as God's grace flows into my life, I am able to respond in faith to God's call and thus believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. All of this is a gift from God!

 

[Chester]

I do understand that there is a "fleshly nature" and there is a "spiritual nature". Mankind does not possess a spiritual nature, until he has been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in the new birth.

Not sure why you put "nature" with flesh - Just call it the flesh as Paul does.

And mankind was born with a spirit, soul, and body - and that spirit is where the old man/nature/sin nature lives - but Paul also calls us "dead" before conversion and this surely applies to the spirit level.

All the above I could give Scripture references for - but I have no time now - I am just telling you how I believe - it seems you are not that far from how I believe - but you often use different terminology and ways of saying it.

I would not say "mankind does not possess a spiritual nature" until the new birth - but I see what you mean by that - no problem . . .

 

[tourist]

I don't know you, though I have seen your posts now and then over the years, but I don't follow you or your posts, so I wouldn't know if you said anything in jest or not.
Aside from that, and if I am reading your post correctly, then again, your understanding of the works James is referring to, is still incorrect.
James is not talking about works like, ACTING as believers do, as you appear to be alluding to. Again, if I am perceiving your post correctly.
For example, going to church, praying, singing songs to the lord, teaching God's word, giving to the poor, and the like.
Are those the kind of things you are saying James is talking about concerning works of faith?
Can you give any personal examples of your acts or works of faith?
What exactly does one do, as a believer, that proves they have this biblical works of faith James speaks of?
What do you do that a nonbeliever can't do that shows your works of faith are not the same as theirs?
And what is the difference between a work of faith and a work of the law? Give an example for each, please.
I ask because most people who believe the way you do, cannot give any examples of works of faith they have done, because it looks like your are boasting about what you have done and glorifying yourself, rather than God.
If you can't give an example of a work of faith you have done, that involves God's power working in a situation you prayed for and acted on, then it most likely is simply a work of the law, and not the same kind of works James is referring to.

The works that I believe that James is referring to has more to do with helping a brother or sister in need than going to church, singing or even praying. Regarding prayer, by all means pray but if you are in the position to actually help someone instead of just praying then you should do it. The best prayer is an answered prayer, someone has to actually do the heavy lifting and this often requires blood, sweat, and tears. It requires work acting on faith. Forget about the post I was being sarcastic in, it's not that important. Let's go in peace now.

 

[know1]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith, but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

This sounds nice but would not hold up to scrutiny in the light of many other scripture verses talking about faith that don't share the same concept.
And regarding Abraham's faith in Romans 4:2-3, haven't you read James' reply to that in 2:23?

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And [after Abraham offered up Isaac, THEN] the scripture was FULFILLED which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Again, Romans is talking about works of the law, and James is talking about works of faith.
If you haven't noticed yet, according to James, Romans 4:3 wasn't fulfilled until after Abraham offered up Isaac.