Blasphemy against holyspirit

[wattie]

Thanks bro. Let me add to that.


who summarized the “once saved, always saved” teaching infers or presumes that somehow:

• No virgin’s lamp can go out…(Matthew 25:8)
• No promising harvest can be choked with thorns…(Matthew 13:7)
• No branch in Christ can ever be cut off for not abiding…(John 15:6)
• No forgiveness can ever be forfeited… (Matthew 18:32)
• No name can be blotted out of God’s book…(Revelation 3:5; Exodus 32:33)
• No salt can ever lose its flavor…(Matthew 5:13)

“Once Saved, Always Saved,” says that nobody can ever:

• “Receive the grace of God in vain”… (2 Corinthians 6:1)
• “Bury [their] talents”…(Matthew 25:18)
• “Neglect such great salvation”… (Hebrews 2:3)
• “Look back” after putting [their] hand to the plow… (Luke 9:62)
• Nor “deny the Lord that bought them” and “brings upon themselves swift destruction” (2 Peter 2:1)
• Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth… (Revelation 3:16)

“Once Saved, Always Saved” will argue that:

• If you are lost, you were never found (John 17:12)
• If one falls, he was never standing (Romans 11:16-22; Hebrews 6:4-6)
• If one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never attached to the vine and once green (John 15:1-6)
• “If any man draws back,” proves that he never had anything to draw back from (Hebrews 10:38,39)
• If one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened (Hebrews 6:4-6)
• If you “again get entangled in the pollution of the world,” it shows that you never escaped (2 Peter 2:20)
• If you “put salvation away” you never truly had it (Hebrews 10:35; Psalms 51:11)
• If you make a shipwreck of your faith, there was no ship of faith there, to begin with!! (1 Timothy 1:19)

Thats just how it is. As you said, why do these warnings even exist in the bible if they dont apply to saved people. These are all letters written to saints in the churches of such and such. Or things spoken to the disciples by Jesus. To say it doesnt apply to believers makes no sense. Should there be a separate "Epistle to the unbelievers" where we can pile on all the apostasy verses?
Be careful so that you dont fall away from the faith you dont even have! Careful now. Be careful you dont fall into false doctrine even though you're not saved! Remain steadfast in the faith you dont have, since you havent even believed make sure you havent believed in vain by any chance. Make sure you dont the flavor in you as salt, that you never had to begin with.

What we have here is daily service passages vs initial eternal salvation verses. Context is key to determine which.

For eg.. in Hebrews 10.26..'there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins'

Context is of the Hebrews trying to still sacrifice bulls and goats, when the are no longer require under the new covenant.

They 'trample the Son of God underfoot'.. by returning to old ways that make His one sacrifice worthless. But.. this isn't losing eternal life.

They were believers. But deceived/immature. See other verses about them needing to learn 'elementary principles' again.. as new born babes in Christ. In Hebrews 5. They were admonished to go on to maturity.

This Hebrews 5 passage is the lead in to the contested Hebrews 6 verses.

Not about losing eternal life. About going on to maturity..giving up old ways that dishonor Christ.

OSAS does not mean 'will always be faithful if saved' that's calvinism back loading works into salvation. So a believer can 'fall away' without losing salvation..or 'never saved to begin with'

Comes down to this: did you convert yourself..or did Jesus convert you?

 

[sawdust]

Once again = continually you ignore Scripture = 1TM 1:19-20 (cf. 2TM 4:14).

You're entitled to your opinion.

Show me where those Pharisees who Jesus said blasphemed the Holy Spirit were saved and I might believe your argument but arguing that falling from grace for believers is what Jesus was talking about in Matthew, is a stretch at best.

 

[sawdust]

Many people have many thoughts on this.So if there is someone who have experienced that he might have blasphemed Holyspirit and then repented and saved,those testimonies can help me

No-one has experienced this because if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit you cannot be forgiven because you will never repent. Such a person has gone too far in their depravity.

Matthew 12:31
For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[wattie]

You're entitled to your opinion.

Show me where those Pharisees who Jesus said blasphemed the Holy Spirit were saved and I might believe your argument but arguing that falling from grace for believers is what Jesus was talking about in Matthew, is a stretch at best.

What do you make of Hymaneus and Alexander?

I'm struggling with their case. I'm guessing because they rejected faith..that's not even starting faith. But that doesn't seem right either.

 

[GWH]

Many people have many thoughts on this.So if there is someone who have experienced that he might have blasphemed Holyspirit and then repented and saved,those testimonies can help me

Trick question?

 

[GWH]

What do you make of Hymaneus and Alexander?

I'm struggling with their case. I'm guessing because they rejected faith..that's not even starting faith. But that doesn't seem right either.

As a former OSASer, I struggled also, until I decided to stop kicking against the goad and just accept the "Sour 16",
which makes sense if you do not divorce saving faith in the Gospel/kerygma from persevering faith/learning the didache.
IOW, if the Gospel is True, there will be no good reason to commit apostasy.

 

[wattie]

As a former OSASer, I struggled also, until I decided to stop kicking against the goad and just accept the "Sour 16",
which makes sense if you do not divorce saving faith in the Gospel/kerygma from persevering faith/learning the didache.
IOW, if the Gospel is True, there will be no good reason to commit apostasy.

Well, there is something in the context with their case I'm missing.

I will research

 

[wattie]

From got questions:

Hymenaeus and Alexander did not lose their salvation; either they were pretenders exposed for what they were or they were straying believers disciplined by a loving God (see Hebrews 12:6).

This is also what I've been thinking.

 

[sawdust]

What do you make of Hymaneus and Alexander?

I'm struggling with their case. I'm guessing because they rejected faith..that's not even starting faith. But that doesn't seem right either.

1Tim.1:18-20
18 I put this charge before you, Timothy my child, in keeping with the prophecies once spoken about you, in order that with such encouragement you may fight the good fight. 19 To do this you must hold firmly to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck in regard to the faith. 20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

The other place we see the name Hymaneus crop up is in 2 Timothy

2Tim.2:16-18
16 But avoid profane chatter, because those occupied with it will stray further and further into ungodliness, 17 and their message will spread its infection like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are in this group. 18 They have strayed from the truth by saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are undermining some people’s faith.

Assuming they are the same person (and I can't see why not), we see Hymaneus acknowledged the resurrection of Christ but his teaching on it was in error.

You would think if "shipwrecking one's faith" and "straying from the truth" was tantamount to loss of salvation from death, Paul would have made it very clear their eternal state was one of damnation rather than the loss of truth to live by which results in a blessed life, one saved from the evils of this world and oneself and a state that can be corrected.

Based on what Hymaneus is saying about the Resurrection, I believe Paul is talking of blaspheming Christ rather than the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which Jesus spoke of in Matthew. Paul would have known the unforgiveness associated with such blasphemy, therefore it seems to me there is little point in handing them over to Satan for disciplinary purposes if he considered they had committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Having said that though, if you read on in 2Timothy, Paul does appear to suggest maybe they do not belong to the Lord at all.

2 Timothy 2:19
However, God’s solid foundation remains standing, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from evil.”

It's also another argument against those who think once the Lord has made us spiritually alive and sealed us with Himself, that we can die again and be lost forever as if He is powerful enough to save us but not powerful enough to keep us saved.

Ultimately, I do not believe the OSAS argument, for or against, has any place in the OP's question regarding blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and is primarily a distraction to understanding the true nature of the Matthew 12 blasphemy passage.

my 5 cents worth.

 

[sawdust]

As a former OSASer, I struggled also, until I decided to stop kicking against the goad and just accept the "Sour 16",
which makes sense if you do not divorce saving faith in the Gospel/kerygma from persevering faith/learning the didache.
IOW, if the Gospel is True, there will be no good reason to commit apostasy.

But if OSAS is true, then you have just strayed from the faith and if it isn't, I have.

Obviously, "straying form the faith" is not the same as losing salvation.

 

[GWH]

From got questions:

Hymenaeus and Alexander did not lose their salvation; either they were pretenders exposed for what they were or they were straying believers disciplined by a loving God (see Hebrews 12:6).

This is also what I've been thinking.

Those are all possibilities. A person who claimed to be a Christian but who now repudiates such faith
or is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (PHP 3:12-16),

b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1CR 3:1-3, EPH 4:11-15)

c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1CR 6:9-11, EPH 5:8-9), or

d. a pseudo-Christian (MT 7:21), who may affirm morality but whose faith is not genuine.

e. an apostate (1JN 2:19, HB 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1TM 1:19-20).

 

[GWH]

But if OSAS is true, then you have just strayed from the faith and if it isn't, I have.

Obviously, "straying form the faith" is not the same as losing salvation.

And accidentally losing is not the same as intentionally repudiating.

 

[sawdust]

And accidentally losing is not the same as intentionally repudiating.

Huh? It's just an accident you don't believe in OSAS? Is there a non-OSAS hole lurking about the place I need to watch out for?

 

[HopeinHim98]

Can anyone please share your testimonies of how you spoke something against the Holy Spirit or called hs an unclean spirit or something in an anger and felt into the thought that you have committed unpardonable sin and later repented to God and now saved.

I understand what you're saying. There have been times in my life I was so sure I had blasphemed the Holy Spirit. The last time I struggled with it, I was so discouraged and pretty hopeless feeling. I was reading my bible and came to a verse about God's forgiveness. I felt like I had no choice but to cling to any bit of hope and claim God's forgiveness. Very soon I found peace and victory praise the Lord.

Obviously it wasn't blasphemy of the Spirit because I believe I still have the Holy Spirit and have God's forgiveness for what I said. But oh how well I know the despair and fear and condemnation that comes when you're convinced you committed the unpardonable!

 

[HopeinHim98]

Can anyone please share your testimonies of how you spoke something against the Holy Spirit or called hs an unclean spirit or something in an anger and felt into the thought that you have committed unpardonable sin and later repented to God and now saved.

Also, I think the enemy likes to take advantage of some of us that have a sensitive conscience and try to convince us there's no hope.

 

[Naveen949134]

I understand what you're saying. There have been times in my life I was so sure I had blasphemed the Holy Spirit. The last time I struggled with it, I was so discouraged and pretty hopeless feeling. I was reading my bible and came to a verse about God's forgiveness. I felt like I had no choice but to cling to any bit of hope and claim God's forgiveness. Very soon I found peace and victory praise the Lord.

Obviously it wasn't blasphemy of the Spirit because I believe I still have the Holy Spirit and have God's forgiveness for what I said. But oh how well I know the despair and fear and condemnation that comes when you're convinced you committed the unpardonable!

What made you feel that you have committed that sin?

 

[HopeinHim98]

What made you feel that you have committed that sin?

I spoke something rashly about a worship song, basically equating it with a secular song. At the time I judged contemporary Christian music pretty harshly.

 

[sawdust]

Also, I think the enemy likes to take advantage of some of us that have a sensitive conscience and try to convince us there's no hope.

Does he ever but you stand on the word of God and don't listen to the devil's bravado, he's insane and a loser.

The Lord bless and keep you. (insert praying hands emoji)

 

[JohnRH]

... or they were straying believers disciplined by a loving God (see Hebrews 12:6).

That's the way I see it. Same with 1 Cor. 5:5, where someone "within" is being judged, but stays within.

 

[armchairscholar]

Thanks bro. Let me add to that.

who summarized the "once saved, always saved" teaching infers or presumes that somehow:
No virgin's lamp can go out…(Matthew 25:8)
No promising harvest can be choked with thorns…(Matthew 13:7)
No branch in Christ can ever be cut off for not abiding…(John 15:6)
No forgiveness can ever be forfeited… (Matthew 18:32)
No name can be blotted out of God's book…(Revelation 3:5; Exodus 32:33)
No salt can ever lose its flavor…(Matthew 5:13)

"Once Saved, Always Saved," says that nobody can ever:
"Receive the grace of God in vain"… (2 Corinthians 6:1)
"Bury [their] talents"…(Matthew 25:18)
"Neglect such great salvation"… (Hebrews 2:3)
"Look back" after putting [their] hand to the plow… (Luke 9:62)
Nor "deny the Lord that bought them" and "brings upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1)
Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth… (Revelation 3:16)

"Once Saved, Always Saved" will argue that:
If you are lost, you were never found (John 17:12)
If one falls, he was never standing (Romans 11:16-22; Hebrews 6:4-6)
If one was ever "cast forth," he was never in, and "if one ever withered," he was never attached to the vine and once green (John 15:1-6)
"If any man draws back," proves that he never had anything to draw back from (Hebrews 10:38,39)
If one ever "falls away into spiritual darkness," he was never enlightened (Hebrews 6:4-6)
If you "again get entangled in the pollution of the world," it shows that you never escaped (2 Peter 2:20)
If you "put salvation away" you never truly had it (Hebrews 10:35; Psalms 51:11)
If you make a shipwreck of your faith, there was no ship of faith there, to begin with!! (1 Timothy 1:19)

Thats just how it is. As you said, why do these warnings even exist in the bible if they dont apply to saved people. These are all letters written to saints in the churches of such and such. Or things spoken to the disciples by Jesus. To say it doesnt apply to believers makes no sense. Should there be a separate "Epistle to the unbelievers" where we can pile on all the apostasy verses?
Be careful so that you dont fall away from the faith you dont even have! Careful now. Be careful you dont fall into false doctrine even though you're not saved! Remain steadfast in the faith you dont have, since you havent even believed make sure you havent believed in vain by any chance. Make sure you dont the flavor in you as salt, that you never had to begin with.

What you're addressing here is a theological debate that has ancient roots but found its formal expression during the Reformation period. The concept of "eternal security" as we know it today was systematically developed by John Calvin (1509-1564) as part of his doctrine of the "perseverance of the saints" - the fifth point in what would later be known as the "TULIP" framework of Calvinism.

Your scriptural catalog is especially valuable because it highlights the interpretive tension that has characterized this debate throughout church history. The early church fathers like Tertullian, Cyprian, and Augustine wrestled with many of these same passages, particularly following periods of persecution when some believers renounced their faith under duress but later sought readmission to the church.

The Council of Orange (529 AD) addressed related questions about salvation, grace, and human freedom that would provide the theological foundation for later debates. During the Medieval period, the Catholic Church developed a robust sacramental system partly to address the very concern you've identified - the possibility of losing one's salvation and the need for ongoing reconciliation.