Applying God's Word to Politics
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Those mandates are given to the church not to a particular nation. The KoG is never ruled by the consent of the people.
What you are suggesting sounds like 7 Mountain Mandate stuff whereby people of God take over institutions of the world to change the world and, you know, rewrite the ending of the scriptures.
Ironically, when religious people take over institutions of the world, or establish institutions of their own, the people suffer, nations are bankrupted, and death follows. Always happens. Always will. Such arrangements support the rule of the AntiChrist NOT the Kingdom of God. We are to be "in the world not of the world", remember?
What you are suggesting sounds like 7 Mountain Mandate stuff whereby people of God take over institutions of the world to change the world and, you know, rewrite the ending of the scriptures.
Ironically, when religious people take over institutions of the world, or establish institutions of their own, the people suffer, nations are bankrupted, and death follows. Always happens. Always will. Such arrangements support the rule of the AntiChrist NOT the Kingdom of God. We are to be "in the world not of the world", remember?
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Do you understand that you are disagreeing with God? For example, this teaching of Paul:
TOP #66: Governments or rulers [institutions] that are not tyrannical toward rightdoers are ordained by God to punish wrongdoers and should be obeyed. [RM 13:1-5] Those who stop reading this passage at verse two might misinterpret what it means. The reason for obedience should not only be fear of punishment but also because it is morally right [godly].
TOP #66: Governments or rulers [institutions] that are not tyrannical toward rightdoers are ordained by God to punish wrongdoers and should be obeyed. [RM 13:1-5] Those who stop reading this passage at verse two might misinterpret what it means. The reason for obedience should not only be fear of punishment but also because it is morally right [godly].
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That's not what that means. Paul is talking about government within the church. Unless you want to call the North Korean government "God’s minister to you for good."
Let me guess: an American patriot taught that it meant "Obey the US government".
The writer of Hebrews would say it this way "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."
In the scriptures we even see Jesus give an account to the Father for His disciples and Paul, Peter, and John give an account of their disciples. They all learned this from the Lord.
So who watches over YOUR soul to the point of which they can give an account of you to God?
Let me guess: an American patriot taught that it meant "Obey the US government".
The writer of Hebrews would say it this way "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."
In the scriptures we even see Jesus give an account to the Father for His disciples and Paul, Peter, and John give an account of their disciples. They all learned this from the Lord.
So who watches over YOUR soul to the point of which they can give an account of you to God?
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Herein possibly lies part of the problem. Family has been taught as one of the Divine Institutions established by God. It's based beginning in interpretations of Genesis where God forms the man, the woman, their union, and from their union comes children. Thus, God created the institution of the human family. Within the family institution God created and mandated an authority structure and rules for each member.
In the KOG this institution currently remains. In addition, our union with Him is taught in marriage and familial terminology also with their authority structures.
Similar teachings from the Bible show how church and government are Divine Institutions beyond marriage and family.
The "traditions" of some of us have been the result of such learning that I doubt you'll be able to shake. I can assure you that some of us can speak of the KOG as well or maybe better than you can.
You're not responding to some of my counterarguments to your emphatic "no they're not" statements. I'm fine with not going further down some of those rabbit-trails, but please know I'm resting my case when there is no response. I understand that you may be doing the same.
In the KOG this institution currently remains. In addition, our union with Him is taught in marriage and familial terminology also with their authority structures.
Similar teachings from the Bible show how church and government are Divine Institutions beyond marriage and family.
The "traditions" of some of us have been the result of such learning that I doubt you'll be able to shake. I can assure you that some of us can speak of the KOG as well or maybe better than you can.
You're not responding to some of my counterarguments to your emphatic "no they're not" statements. I'm fine with not going further down some of those rabbit-trails, but please know I'm resting my case when there is no response. I understand that you may be doing the same.
I suppose the answer in part will take us into eschatology that I prefer not to discuss. In my experience it's one of the most combative areas of theology.
If you're asking if my soteriology is universalism, my answer is no.
Are you opposed to our Lord's mandate to His disciples to teach the nations all He commands?
Or are you opposed to Paul's stated mission of [bringing about] faith-obedience in all the nations on behalf of the name of Jesus Christ, YHWH's KING of the earth?
And again, do you see any limitations our Lord placed on these missions that should prevent His people from influencing institutions of people, especially the Divine Institutions?
If you're asking if my soteriology is universalism, my answer is no.
Are you opposed to our Lord's mandate to His disciples to teach the nations all He commands?
Or are you opposed to Paul's stated mission of [bringing about] faith-obedience in all the nations on behalf of the name of Jesus Christ, YHWH's KING of the earth?
And again, do you see any limitations our Lord placed on these missions that should prevent His people from influencing institutions of people, especially the Divine Institutions?
I am asking folks how we should apply Christian beliefs to politics, following the example of when Peter told the Sanhedrin "We must obey God rather than men!" (Acts 5:29)
I was asking how we should do this during the Marxist-Fascist Biden administration, but now I am asking how Trump's MAGA folks should apply biblical morality to various political problems. For example, were it not a cynical effort to import Dem voters, open borders could be viewed as loving toward the poor of the world, but is that true?
In the present discussion, how can biblical values serve as salt and light for families, churches and governments?
Or asked another way, what is the relationship between the KOG and human society?
I was asking how we should do this during the Marxist-Fascist Biden administration, but now I am asking how Trump's MAGA folks should apply biblical morality to various political problems. For example, were it not a cynical effort to import Dem voters, open borders could be viewed as loving toward the poor of the world, but is that true?
In the present discussion, how can biblical values serve as salt and light for families, churches and governments?
Or asked another way, what is the relationship between the KOG and human society?
What i love most about the sailor is his lack of self-awareness.
Especially when he says things like :
Are you disagreeing with God?
or
Let us reason together - and he doesn't give an inch nor processes the questions.
This is why i love him.
Thank you for coming into this forum and making me more active because i don't typically discuss to death many topics that people do over an over.
This is also evident in my post count compared to other users who have been here at the same time as me.
God bless you sailor!
Especially when he says things like :
Are you disagreeing with God?
or
Let us reason together - and he doesn't give an inch nor processes the questions.
This is why i love him.
Thank you for coming into this forum and making me more active because i don't typically discuss to death many topics that people do over an over.
This is also evident in my post count compared to other users who have been here at the same time as me.
God bless you sailor!
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Those mandates are given to the church not to a particular nation. The KoG is never ruled by the consent of the people.
What you are suggesting sounds like 7 Mountain Mandate stuff whereby people of God take over institutions of the world to change the world and, you know, rewrite the ending of the scriptures.
Ironically, when religious people take over institutions of the world, or establish institutions of their own, the people suffer, nations are bankrupted, and death follows. Always happens. Always will. Such arrangements support the rule of the AntiChrist NOT the Kingdom of God. We are to be "in the world not of the world", remember?
What you are suggesting sounds like 7 Mountain Mandate stuff whereby people of God take over institutions of the world to change the world and, you know, rewrite the ending of the scriptures.
Ironically, when religious people take over institutions of the world, or establish institutions of their own, the people suffer, nations are bankrupted, and death follows. Always happens. Always will. Such arrangements support the rule of the AntiChrist NOT the Kingdom of God. We are to be "in the world not of the world", remember?
I realize who those mandates are given to and think I stated who, which I don't think should lead you to suggest I said He gave them to a specific nation. Nor do I see the point of your telling me who the KOG is ruled by. Why do you find such statements necessary?
Although I've read about 7MM after first reading about it in the News section of this forum, I don't follow such things or find much interest in them unless they might show up in some interpretations of Scripture discussions. Even then, they normally do not pique my interest. Again, your comment about rewriting the end of the Scriptures is eschatology, so I'll leave you to discuss that with others if you'd like. For the most part I view this thread as discussing what we do in the here and now in regard to political issues.
I'll also disregard your last paragraph for this reason. When we start talking in absolutes as you are there, normally such includes statements that we cannot possibly back up. With respect you cannot know what "always happens" so your overall statement is merely an opinion for effect that looks to be used for some all-encompassing conclusion you assert to prove your point. To me it does just the opposite.
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That's not what that means. Paul is talking about government within the church. Unless you want to call the North Korean government "God’s minister to you for good."
Let me guess: an American patriot taught that it meant "Obey the US government".
The writer of Hebrews would say it this way "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."
In the scriptures we even see Jesus give an account to the Father for His disciples and Paul, Peter, and John give an account of their disciples. They all learned this from the Lord.
So who watches over YOUR soul to the point of which they can give an account of you to God?
Let me guess: an American patriot taught that it meant "Obey the US government".
The writer of Hebrews would say it this way "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."
In the scriptures we even see Jesus give an account to the Father for His disciples and Paul, Peter, and John give an account of their disciples. They all learned this from the Lord.
So who watches over YOUR soul to the point of which they can give an account of you to God?
Maybe the Sanhedrin "bore the sword" in some cases, but they "brought punishment on" Christians who were not "wrongdoers", so obviously Paul had the "government authorities" in mind, because nowhere does he refer to the churches as wielding power and collecting taxes (v.6-7).
It's interesting that the first 2 responses to your OP were: We don't then We do (and in essence we cannot do otherwise). I'll leave it for those posters to correct me if I'm misunderstanding what they said or meant.
Please clarify whether you're asking how "we" Christians think Trump's MAGA folks should be applying biblical morality... or whether you're assuming they are we.
I guess it seems the discussion should be what God says about any of the issues. Then I guess we should ask within the discussion whether we should just keep our findings to ourselves or send them to the elected representatives of the states we live in. Then I suppose we should ask the Head of the Ekklesia what He wants us to do. Or maybe we should have started with that research. Or maybe we already discussed it to some degree and as usual have come to no consensus.
Please clarify whether you're asking how "we" Christians think Trump's MAGA folks should be applying biblical morality... or whether you're assuming they are we.
I guess it seems the discussion should be what God says about any of the issues. Then I guess we should ask within the discussion whether we should just keep our findings to ourselves or send them to the elected representatives of the states we live in. Then I suppose we should ask the Head of the Ekklesia what He wants us to do. Or maybe we should have started with that research. Or maybe we already discussed it to some degree and as usual have come to no consensus.
A start - will write more later:
Romans 13 tells us to not to resist or disobey the governing authorities.
This leaves us with 2 immediate questions:
1.) What precisely constitutes a governing authority, both in Paul's time and for us today?
2.) What precisely does it mean to resist or disobey this authority, once we identify it?
* On examination, we'll find these questions are more complex than most Christians generally presume.
Sorting through these things will force us to think more deeply about the underlying principles.
I'll flesh it out later, when I have more time.
God Bless.
.
Romans 13 tells us to not to resist or disobey the governing authorities.
This leaves us with 2 immediate questions:
1.) What precisely constitutes a governing authority, both in Paul's time and for us today?
2.) What precisely does it mean to resist or disobey this authority, once we identify it?
* On examination, we'll find these questions are more complex than most Christians generally presume.
Sorting through these things will force us to think more deeply about the underlying principles.
I'll flesh it out later, when I have more time.
God Bless.
.