Applying God's Word to Politics

[studier]

These are not standard from the Bible bro. Why are you acting like you're a programmed robot?
Even a child can tell right from wrong when they accidentally put their hand of the stove and burn it.
These are standards that ANY society in history develops and keeps the balance from going into extremes.

Biblical standards are a different thing. This is the whole point that you and @GWH mix.



Okay hold on a second here. This is new and i didn't hear it before.
You're saying that "we can talk about applying Biblical standards in government but don't force them on others"?
Is this what you're saying?
In other words "politicians lead by example" ?

Beside the poor reasoning, lack of introspection, and lack of understanding of how even things like common sense are discussed in the Bible and who is the source for all of such things in men, you're simply resorting to too much ad hominem.

In the US politicians, citizens, and visitors are free to mix God with politics in voice and behavior to points and do so every day. You included whether or not you can grasp the reality of your judgments contained in your posts.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Actually, there were more abortions the year after Roe was rescinded than the year before.

Ummm someone here challenged that "fact". @Max was that you? There is no proof of this being true I think was the point made by whoever brought it up. It's something lefties are claiming but there is no proof.

 

[Eli1]

Beside the poor reasoning, lack of introspection, and lack of understanding of how even things like common sense are discussed in the Bible and who is the source for all of such things in men, you're simply resorting to too much ad hominem.

You're saying things that are completley unreasonable and judging millions of people as "sub humans" so i am responding to your statements. Are you even aware of what you're saying?
It seems that you're incapable of having an un-biased discussion of this topic because you can't comprehend that people who don't believe in God, can and do things which may or may not align with the Bible.
But this isn't even the point.
The point is that human morality is different from God morality which is why, again these things are separate, which you can't comprehend apparently.

In the US politicians, citizens, and visitors are free to mix God with politics in voice and behavior to points and do so every day. You included whether or not you can grasp the reality of your judgments contained in your posts.

Sooo what does this even mean in relation to what we're discussing?
They mix politics with God on a personal level (like your founding fathers) but separate politics from God when they apply law and order which may contradict Bible morality?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Thanks for that, and I am not the least bit surprised. Saddened of course. I can't emotionally process abortion.

As I said, those "facts" are in question. I hope whoever posted that will see these posts and post it again. But I'm not sure about what you mean by "can't emotionally process" abortion.

 

[GWH]

The Spirit of God does not inhabit governments or institutions.

Correct. The HS indwells believers who comprise the kingdom of God which serves as salt/light for institutions including governments.

 

[GWH]

SCRIPTURES RELATED TO POLITICS IN GENESIS​

1. Genesis 1:27a: “God created humanity in his own image; in the image of God he created humans…”​

This citation has two applications in current politics.

First, it affirms that God exists, so humanity should not be atheistic or idolatrous. Thus, politics should not contradict or inhibit faith in God.

Second, it indicates that humans are like God, most likely (given the moral commands beginning with the forbidden fruit in GN 2:16-17) in their moral capacity or ability and thus responsibility to cooperate with God’s moral will. Logically, the first sin was choosing NOT to doubt the Devil (GN 3:4-5). Thus, politicians and voters are accountable to God for their views and actions.

1. Genesis 1:27b and 2:24: “…male and female God created humanity… For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.”​

These verses teach two truths.

There are only two sexes, and

Heterosexual marriage is the moral norm for physical relations (reaffirmed by Jesus in MT 19:4-6, cf. Paul in RM 1:24-27). Thus, any deviant desire should be viewed as abnormal and a mental illness (if not intentional) in need of a cure. If intentional, then it is a sin.

1. Genesis 9:6: “Whoever sheds the blood of man [murders], by man shall his blood be shed.”​

This commandment indicates that execution is the appropriate penalty for murder.

This principle is restated more broadly in DT 19:21, “Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot”.

Thus, there should be very good justification for showing pity or the mercy indicated by Jesus’ beatitude (in MT 5:7), “Blessed are the merciful”.

This should not be misinterpreted, because Jesus also said, “Repent” (MT 4:17).

Harmonizing such moral teachings must be done prayerfully, keeping in mind that although God’s love is unconditional (JN 3:16, RM 5:8), God’s grace is conditional upon repentance, so that forgiveness does not abet sinful behavior (HB 10:26-27).

 

[Eli1]

^
This is like trying to squeeze water out of a rock.

 

[GWH]

As I am watching Ben Berquam's report on RAV contrasting Biden's treatment of American citizens living in tents in North Carolina with illegal immigrants being provided free room and board at a new Holiday Inn Express in Chicago as Trump flies to North Carolina and California as the harbinger of hope for those folks, I perceive how the Biden Dems serve the devil and the MAGA Pubs manifest the love of Christ, however imperfectly--in both cases?

 

[Aaron56]

As I am watching Ben Berquam's report on RAV contrasting Biden's treatment of American citizens living in tents in North Carolina with illegal immigrants being provided free room and board at a new Holiday Inn Express in Chicago as Trump flies to North Carolina and California as the harbinger of hope for those folks, I perceive how the Biden Dems serve the devil and the MAGA Pubs manifest the love of Christ, however imperfectly--in both cases?

I guess "be wise as serpents" means "draw broad conclusions from a single anecdote".

 

[Aaron56]

Correct. The HS indwells believers who comprise the kingdom of God which serves as salt/light for institutions including governments.

"Salt" and "light" are not for institutions. They are for people. You're trying to shoehorn your ideas into God's kingdom. It doesn't work that way. It has never worked that way.

 

[studier]

This Thread:

This thread has been excruciatingly circuitous, frequently preferring the sheer drama of debate over biblical resolution.

The O.P. asked the simple question of how do we apply scripture to politics.
A.) BIBLICALLY -
It would biblically seem: there are simple principles governing this arena, and even guidelines for prioritizing some principles above others.
B.) LOGICALLY -
It would logically seem: there are rational ways to extrapolate these principles out to specific issues, though this will necessarily become more and more complex.
C.) EXPERIENTIALLY -
It would experientially seem: people come to this issue with a lot of baggage and cultural presupposition, and it's the presupposition that causes so much mud in the water.
D.) OVERALL -
It would seem it is both biblical and rational to resolve these problems by focusing on the core biblical principles, using those to create a broader logical and theological framework, and then using that framework to place and assess all of these political issues.

It seems to me that many decent and well-meaning people approach complex issues a bit... backward.



Just my quick thoughts.

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I'd be interested in reading what you have to say beyond this if you'd like to take it back to the OP.

 

[studier]

"Salt" and "light" are not for institutions. They are for people. You're trying to shoehorn your ideas into God's kingdom. It doesn't work that way. It has never worked that way.

To start, institutions are groups of people. If salt & light are for people, then they are for groups of people, thus for institutions.

 

[Aaron56]

To start, institutions are groups of people...

No they are not. Legally, an institution is governed by bylaws designed to preserve the institution. Theoretically you could have one person who comprises and institution. The key is not how many people are in the corporation but the by-laws that govern it. An institution, because it must serve itself, cannot serve Christ. At its core, an institution cannot elevate any person above itself otherwise it would end with the death of the person. So they exist in perpetuity with no consideration of membership or leadership.

The best you could do is transition to ownership. But that runs counter to stewardship emulated by Biblical leaders and Christ in the scriptures. Furthermore, membership in the Kingdom of God is governed by the King. Citizenship in the U.S. is governed by the constitution. Nowhere does the constitution allow the Lord to determine US citizenship.

Again: you can't shoehorn the KoG into US politics. They are mutually exclusive because they are governed by different entities.

 

[GWH]

"Salt" and "light" are not for institutions. They are for people. You're trying to shoehorn your ideas into God's kingdom. It doesn't work that way. It has never worked that way.

You illustrate the need to employ "both-and" logic.

Surely God wants BOTH people AND institutions (families, churches, governments) to behave in a godly manner!

And BOTH individual souls AND groups of people are imperfect, needing improvement BOTH by being salted with Christian influence (including votes) AND by being enlightened with God's Word/Truth/Gospel.

 

[Aaron56]

You illustrate the need to employ "both-and" logic.

Surely God wants BOTH people AND institutions (families, churches, governments) to behave in a godly manner!

And BOTH individual souls AND groups of people are imperfect, needing improvement BOTH by being salted with Christian influence (including votes) AND by being enlightened with God's Word/Truth/Gospel.

Do you even hear yourself?

Institutions cannot be governed by God's Spirit because He does not inhabit anything made with man's hands.

More shoe-horning.

 

[maxwel]

I'd be interested in reading what you have to say beyond this if you'd like to take it back to the OP.

I think this entire issue is one of overlapping principles, along with unique circumstances that never faced the biblical writers. With these things being the case, it's simply a matter of necessity to craft a careful theological framework, with some real precision, that is capable of allowing us an assessment, a good measure, of all these issues. Then, after that framework is developed, we're still going to be left with many matters of personal liberty and conscience.

Overall, I think the first step forward here is a big step back, a step back to rethink all the underlying biblical principles, and just camp there, just stay right there, until we have a theological framework capable of dealing with all of these political issues.

I think everyone here has only the best intentions, but the solution to these disagreements won't be found in restating our preferred positions louder and louder.
The solution is to go back to all the underlying principles, and rethink how they overlap, and which ones have natural priority, and if we're viewing them with all the proper semantic distinctions - we just need to make sure sure we have a solid, and broad, biblical perspective.

I don't think any of the Biblical Christians here have any bad intentions.
But a good "rethink" never hurt anybody.

.
.

 

[studier]

No they are not. Legally, an institution is governed by bylaws designed to preserve the institution. Theoretically you could have one person who comprises and institution. The key is not how many people are in the corporation but the by-laws that govern it. An institution, because it must serve itself, cannot serve Christ. At its core, an institution cannot elevate any person above itself otherwise it would end with the death of the person. So they exist in perpetuity with no consideration of membership or leadership.

As I suggested you research re: the Nicolaitans, I also suggest you research institutions. Family is a type of institution. As is organized religion (have you ever heard teaching on the Divine Institutions?). You're painting with a very broad-brush making rules to suit your purpose. But institutions are societal organizations of people (and yes, even of one person) and their reasons for existence and their rules are typically changeable. As for perpetuity, institutions are perpetual until someone may terminate them, or they might remain and be of no effect if their affairs are not attended to by people.

The best you could do is transition to ownership. But that runs counter to stewardship emulated by Biblical leaders and Christ in the scriptures. Furthermore, membership in the Kingdom of God is governed by the King. Citizenship in the U.S. is governed by the constitution. Nowhere does the constitution allow the Lord to determine US citizenship.

I honestly don't understand your purpose for some of the points you're trying to make here.

It's become a bit ridiculous to me to watch people complain about the evil corporations as if they were some institutions not comprised of people. But the reality is that people created them, run them, work at their purposes, etc.

Our Lord's discussion of salt and light was directed to people (plural) and His people were mandated to influence other people. His Kingdom has a mandated outreach to teach about Him and of His commandments. Where is the limitation on this? The mandate is to disciple nations. Nations make up the world. Nations and the world are peoples. Institutions are of people. Again, where is the limitation on the outreach of instructing on behalf of the KING of the earth?

 

[studier]

Do you even hear yourself?

Institutions cannot be governed by God's Spirit because He does not inhabit anything made with man's hands.

More shoe-horning.

When God's Spirit governs His people, institutions of people can be changed. Please read @GWH post again and note the legitimate examples of institutions he mentioned.

 

[studier]

I think this entire issue is one of overlapping principles, along with unique circumstances that never faced the biblical writers. With these things being the case, it's simply a matter of necessity to craft a careful theological framework, with some real precision, that is capable of allowing us an assessment, a good measure, of all these issues. Then, after that framework is developed, we're still going to be left with many matters of personal liberty and conscience.

Overall, I think the first step forward here is a big step back, a step back to rethink all the underlying biblical principles, and just camp there, just stay right there, until we have a theological framework capable of dealing with all of these political issues.

I think everyone here has only the best intentions, but the solution to these disagreements won't be found in restating our preferred positions louder and louder.
The solution is to go back to all the underlying principles, and rethink how they overlap, and which ones have natural priority, and if we're viewing them with all the proper semantic distinctions - we just need to make sure sure we have a solid, and broad, biblical perspective.

I don't think any of the Biblical Christians here have any bad intentions.
But a good "rethink" never hurt anybody.

.
.

An example or a start?

 

[Aaron56]

Family is a type of institution.

Only according to the law because there are laws that govern rights within a family. God does not treat "family" as an institution.

But the constitution of the US did not come first. The Kingdom of God came first and set the standard for life in the Spirit.

Most are so immersed in their traditions that they cannot perceive the KoG. They are like a fish trying to describe the ocean.