And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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There are 2 verses that specifically say that God is able to kill both body and soul. So what?
Do you have a verse that says that God WILL kill both body and soul? Thatis what you need to PROVE your claim.
Wonder no more. No one would survive. The Bible says so.
How does this verse relate to ECT?
Another irrelevant verse to our discussion.
And again, no relevance to the discussion.
But I like all verses.
Do you have a verse that says that God WILL kill both body and soul? Thatis what you need to PROVE your claim.
Wonder no more. No one would survive. The Bible says so.
How does this verse relate to ECT?
Another irrelevant verse to our discussion.
And again, no relevance to the discussion.
But I like all verses.
FreeGrace2 said:
So then, you once HAD the TRUTH. Too bad you bailed. Deception is an ugly thing.
The saved and the unsaved. I think every evangelical knows this.
So, let's see what you think.
There is no group referenced here. You are just confused again. This is the devil deceiving Eve, kinda like you are deceived about souls being killed. All atheists believe that they won't exist after death. Not too far off your view.
And this is no group, or represents any group. It is what God told Adam.
No, you don't believe what the Bible says. The beast, FP, Satan plus all fallen angels and all unbelievers will end up in the LOF where they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You are just too stubborn to admit it.
Once again, the only 2 groups in the human race are: saved and unsaved.
Your grouping wasn't even a grouping.
So then, you once HAD the TRUTH. Too bad you bailed. Deception is an ugly thing.
The saved and the unsaved. I think every evangelical knows this.
So, let's see what you think.
There is no group referenced here. You are just confused again. This is the devil deceiving Eve, kinda like you are deceived about souls being killed. All atheists believe that they won't exist after death. Not too far off your view.
And this is no group, or represents any group. It is what God told Adam.
No, you don't believe what the Bible says. The beast, FP, Satan plus all fallen angels and all unbelievers will end up in the LOF where they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
You are just too stubborn to admit it.
Once again, the only 2 groups in the human race are: saved and unsaved.
Your grouping wasn't even a grouping.
FreeGrace2 said:
None of this refers to the immaterial soul. All of this refers to the human body.
Yes sir. Now, show me the verse that says tht God WILL kill the body and soul. Being able to doesn't mean He WILL. There needs to be a verse that says so.
"is able" never means "will".
Okaaaaayyyyy. So what? This passage doesn't even address what happens to the unbelievers in the LOF, except v.15 and 16, where "perish" refers to the resurrected but mortal bodies of the unbelievers.
We know that fleshly bodies WILL burn up completely in a fire. And we know that the 2 humans, beast and FP, will be in the LOF for 1,--- years before Satan joins them. And Rev 20:10 says THEY will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The beast and FP were thrown in alive. That means their body burned up in the fire. No ifs, and's or but's. But, 1,000 years later, the beast and FP are STILL THERE when Satan joins them. For eternity.
Body gone, but soul remains for the eternal punishment of Matt 25:46.
None of this refers to the immaterial soul. All of this refers to the human body.
Yes sir. Now, show me the verse that says tht God WILL kill the body and soul. Being able to doesn't mean He WILL. There needs to be a verse that says so.
"is able" never means "will".
Okaaaaayyyyy. So what? This passage doesn't even address what happens to the unbelievers in the LOF, except v.15 and 16, where "perish" refers to the resurrected but mortal bodies of the unbelievers.
We know that fleshly bodies WILL burn up completely in a fire. And we know that the 2 humans, beast and FP, will be in the LOF for 1,--- years before Satan joins them. And Rev 20:10 says THEY will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The beast and FP were thrown in alive. That means their body burned up in the fire. No ifs, and's or but's. But, 1,000 years later, the beast and FP are STILL THERE when Satan joins them. For eternity.
Body gone, but soul remains for the eternal punishment of Matt 25:46.
FreeGrace2 said:
None of this refers to the immaterial soul. All of this refers to the human body.
Yes sir. Now, show me the verse that says tht God WILL kill the body and soul. Being able to doesn't mean He WILL. There needs to be a verse that says so.
"is able" never means "will".
Certainly NOT any bodies. Physical bodies ALWAYS burn up completely in fire. So, the soul is what is left.
OK, good.
Uh, we're talking about unbelievers. They are dichotomous. They have only body and soul. Only believers are trichotomous, with body, soul and spirit. 1 Thess 5:23.
Wrong. Both the beast and FP will be there 1,000 years BEFORE Satan joins them. Rev 20:10. So there IS IS IS something left. Since the body will certainly burn up, only the soul will be left, which is the REAL PERSON. That's where the intellect, emotions, personality all reside.
None of this refers to the immaterial soul. All of this refers to the human body.
Yes sir. Now, show me the verse that says tht God WILL kill the body and soul. Being able to doesn't mean He WILL. There needs to be a verse that says so.
"is able" never means "will".
Certainly NOT any bodies. Physical bodies ALWAYS burn up completely in fire. So, the soul is what is left.
OK, good.
Uh, we're talking about unbelievers. They are dichotomous. They have only body and soul. Only believers are trichotomous, with body, soul and spirit. 1 Thess 5:23.
Wrong. Both the beast and FP will be there 1,000 years BEFORE Satan joins them. Rev 20:10. So there IS IS IS something left. Since the body will certainly burn up, only the soul will be left, which is the REAL PERSON. That's where the intellect, emotions, personality all reside.
FreeGrace2 said:
And had he read the Bible he would have KNOWN that was the death of the EARTH BODY ONLY, and NOT the death of BOTH the body and soul, which takes place at THE 2ND DEATH.
Right. You need to inform your buddy about that fact. He thinks both the body and soul will "cease to exist" at physical death, and then (somehow magically) will again die (which means cease to exist) at the LOF.
He needs help. Lots of it. Oh, I just remembered. You have me on ignore. Too bad you won't see this and help your buddy.
This is interesting. You think you have the right, authority, and knowledge to tell me what I don't believe, just after telling you what I believe. Are you omniscient or something?
Really?
See? I know he needs help because the Bible says nothing of this. When Jesus returns at the 2nd Advent, ALL believers will be resurrected, per 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Only when ALL the unbelievers have died, which will be at the end of the Millennium, will they be resurrected back into their physical and still mortal bodies, to appear before the GWT judgment. Immediately after that, they will be cast into the LOF.
The ONLY humans who will be in the LOF 1,000 years before Satan and the rest of all unbelievers will be the beast and FP.
Those who know the Bible will recognize truth.
Correct. He is omnipotent.
Prove it with a clear verse about the soul ceasing to exist or dying.
OK, this is weird. You're just totally contradicting yourself. And you don't even seem to notice.
That would be all believers. 1 Cor 15:23 makes that quite clear.
There is your mistake. The verses that mention both resurrections didn't say they were at the same time. And those who can read, and have read Rev 20 will clearly see that only the believers will be resurrected at the 2nd Advent.
That's the resurrection of all unbelievers. 1,000 years AFTER all the believers receive their glorified bodies.
This sentence needs a whole lot of work to make it comprehensible.
Wrong again. There are certainly 2; one for the unsaved and one for the saved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Do you see any mention that they will occur together? No.
Well, wrong again. Even Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha died again. But since you believe he received a glorified body that can't die again, please show me the verse(s) that teaches this. I know there will be just crickets.
And had he read the Bible he would have KNOWN that was the death of the EARTH BODY ONLY, and NOT the death of BOTH the body and soul, which takes place at THE 2ND DEATH.
Right. You need to inform your buddy about that fact. He thinks both the body and soul will "cease to exist" at physical death, and then (somehow magically) will again die (which means cease to exist) at the LOF.
He needs help. Lots of it. Oh, I just remembered. You have me on ignore. Too bad you won't see this and help your buddy.
This is interesting. You think you have the right, authority, and knowledge to tell me what I don't believe, just after telling you what I believe. Are you omniscient or something?
Really?
See? I know he needs help because the Bible says nothing of this. When Jesus returns at the 2nd Advent, ALL believers will be resurrected, per 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Only when ALL the unbelievers have died, which will be at the end of the Millennium, will they be resurrected back into their physical and still mortal bodies, to appear before the GWT judgment. Immediately after that, they will be cast into the LOF.
The ONLY humans who will be in the LOF 1,000 years before Satan and the rest of all unbelievers will be the beast and FP.
Those who know the Bible will recognize truth.
Correct. He is omnipotent.
Prove it with a clear verse about the soul ceasing to exist or dying.
OK, this is weird. You're just totally contradicting yourself. And you don't even seem to notice.
That would be all believers. 1 Cor 15:23 makes that quite clear.
There is your mistake. The verses that mention both resurrections didn't say they were at the same time. And those who can read, and have read Rev 20 will clearly see that only the believers will be resurrected at the 2nd Advent.
That's the resurrection of all unbelievers. 1,000 years AFTER all the believers receive their glorified bodies.
This sentence needs a whole lot of work to make it comprehensible.
Wrong again. There are certainly 2; one for the unsaved and one for the saved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Do you see any mention that they will occur together? No.
Well, wrong again. Even Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha died again. But since you believe he received a glorified body that can't die again, please show me the verse(s) that teaches this. I know there will be just crickets.
Please don't lower your standards to the lies of the other 2. You all have been shown clear enough Scripture to reject your false doctrine that souls will cease to exist.
And now, we find that both of them claim all unbelievers will have already had both their bodies and souls cease to exist prior to the GWT judgment.
Think about it. Then get back to them and explain to them that once a body and soul combination has "ceased to exist", it cannot be made to "cease to exist" again.
Jesus account of a rich and poor man proves that souls DO exist after death. Or He was just lying in telling such a tall tale or fib.
Runningman said:
There are two groups of people in this world:
First group is the one that you are in believes this:
Genesis 3:4
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
and the group I’m in is believes this:
Great answer. But they won't "knock it off".
And their ridiculous claim that body and soul have already "ceased to exist" (died) before the GWT judgment, only to have body and soul cease to exist again is beyond bizarre.
I guess they think at the resurrection of the unsaved, God will resurrect their bodies AND souls.
However, on THE chapter about resurrection (1 Cor 15) Paul's only emphasis is on the quickening of the body. There is no mention of the soul.
So their weird idea about souls being resurrected as NO basis in the Bible.
There are two groups of people in this world:
First group is the one that you are in believes this:
Genesis 3:4
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
and the group I’m in is believes this:
Great answer. But they won't "knock it off".
And their ridiculous claim that body and soul have already "ceased to exist" (died) before the GWT judgment, only to have body and soul cease to exist again is beyond bizarre.
I guess they think at the resurrection of the unsaved, God will resurrect their bodies AND souls.
However, on THE chapter about resurrection (1 Cor 15) Paul's only emphasis is on the quickening of the body. There is no mention of the soul.
So their weird idea about souls being resurrected as NO basis in the Bible.
God alone is immortal. Scripture explicitly states this. Only those found in Christ at the end of this age
following the resurrection and judgment of all, those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life,
attain to life ever after, though putting on His righteousness and His immortality. All else pass into the second death.
following the resurrection and judgment of all, those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life,
attain to life ever after, though putting on His righteousness and His immortality. All else pass into the second death.
There are two groups of people in this world. Those who believe the lies of the serpent, that’s the group you’re in. Then there are hose who believe God like me.
Fundamentally you believe something of the unsaved person has eternal life in hell or the LOF. That’s an inconvenient truth you’re trapped in and presently cannot wrangle free from. You may try to make all sorts of arguments and distractions, but the core of what you believe stays the same. You’re in spiritual bondage and I’m here to help you get out of it.
Fundamentally you believe something of the unsaved person has eternal life in hell or the LOF. That’s an inconvenient truth you’re trapped in and presently cannot wrangle free from. You may try to make all sorts of arguments and distractions, but the core of what you believe stays the same. You’re in spiritual bondage and I’m here to help you get out of it.
Let’s try to look at this through the eyes and ears of those Jesus was talking to. Mostly He was talking to Jews except for in some cases He talked to Gentiles.
If they were at all familiar with the Old Testament, the holy writ Scriptures, which surely they had a basic understanding of what the laws were, then when Jesus said “eternal punishment” the idea of eternal conscious torment would have been the furthest thing from their minds.
Eternal conscious torment isn’t even mentioned one time in the Old Testament. In the OT it’s unanimous the fate of the wicked was being destroyed; that’s put to death. That’s how early Christianity and the Jews understood the fate of the wicked if they heard “eternal punishment.”
The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. If you don’t understand the Old Testament the New Testament can’t be properly understood.
now learn this: the OT and NT are in harmony on the fate of the wicked. You’ll do well to understand this.
James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."
Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."
Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."
Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."
Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."
Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."
2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."
Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."
Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."
Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."
Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"
Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."
Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)
2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."
2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"
Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
If they were at all familiar with the Old Testament, the holy writ Scriptures, which surely they had a basic understanding of what the laws were, then when Jesus said “eternal punishment” the idea of eternal conscious torment would have been the furthest thing from their minds.
Eternal conscious torment isn’t even mentioned one time in the Old Testament. In the OT it’s unanimous the fate of the wicked was being destroyed; that’s put to death. That’s how early Christianity and the Jews understood the fate of the wicked if they heard “eternal punishment.”
The New Testament is based on the Old Testament. If you don’t understand the Old Testament the New Testament can’t be properly understood.
now learn this: the OT and NT are in harmony on the fate of the wicked. You’ll do well to understand this.
James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."
Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."
Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."
Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."
Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."
Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."
Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."
2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."
Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."
Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."
Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."
Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"
Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."
Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."
John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)
2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."
2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"
Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
I also might add that modern day Jews don’t even believe in eternal conscious torment, nor have they ever, because it isn’t in the Old Testament even a single time. Look it up.
Eternal conscious torment has it’s origin in a few pots. The ECT theology seems to be taken from pagans, Catholics, and Muslims. Which one are you?
Eternal conscious torment has it’s origin in a few pots. The ECT theology seems to be taken from pagans, Catholics, and Muslims. Which one are you?