Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.
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With respect,,,
I think that some how we(Christians) have from the second and third centuries debated this is spiritual or literal and so as if the power of suggestion we all followed the leader in it and have confused a many of things because of it(none being immune) .
Pardon me using you post as an example...
You use Abel as an example but you are not meaning he was spiritually slain by Cain but instead that he was literally slain in the flesh as a martyr in a literal manner.
Hi thanks for the reply
I would think he was martyred, or what you call spiritually slain as well as literally slain as one work all in the twinkling of the eye . It was the reaction Cain received from Abel, bringing the prophecy. The first prophet to declare the good news . First martyr. First murdered by the father of lies as his beginning of serial killing..
Both men appearing with an offering, in order to show the faith of Christ was working in one , it worked in Abel to both will and do the good pleasure of Him not seen. But not Cain. In respect to grace it was applied to Abel but not Cain..
All Cain would of had to do is recognize the faith of Christ that came from hearing God that worked in Abel was mutually calling him to bring the same metaphor to represent the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world . In his jealously he was blinded and refused to believe in a God not seen
In his anger not desiring to look to self he searched for the fault in his brother having heard the gospel, the choice of Abel with God.
The god of this world incited Cain and he literally slew his brother Abel.
Like all prophets it would seem He moved Abel "as the Lord" said through Abel to declare the word as it is written…..Some say a theophany as in and the Lord said or others a dream. But they do not seem to fit into the dialog.
And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Genesis 4:6-7
Moved to hide the literal evidence.(walking by sight) Cain talked his brother Abel into taking a little walk like a lamb led to slaughter..
And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. Genesis 4:6-7
I think that some how we(Christians) have from the second and third centuries debated this is spiritual or literal and so as if the power of suggestion we all followed the leader in it and have confused a many of things because of it(none being immune) .
Pardon me using you post as an example...
You use Abel as an example but you are not meaning he was spiritually slain by Cain but instead that he was literally slain in the flesh as a martyr in a literal manner.
Hi thanks for the reply
I would think he was martyred, or what you call spiritually slain as well as literally slain as one work all in the twinkling of the eye . It was the reaction Cain received from Abel, bringing the prophecy. The first prophet to declare the good news . First martyr. First murdered by the father of lies as his beginning of serial killing..
Both men appearing with an offering, in order to show the faith of Christ was working in one , it worked in Abel to both will and do the good pleasure of Him not seen. But not Cain. In respect to grace it was applied to Abel but not Cain..
All Cain would of had to do is recognize the faith of Christ that came from hearing God that worked in Abel was mutually calling him to bring the same metaphor to represent the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world . In his jealously he was blinded and refused to believe in a God not seen
In his anger not desiring to look to self he searched for the fault in his brother having heard the gospel, the choice of Abel with God.
The god of this world incited Cain and he literally slew his brother Abel.
Like all prophets it would seem He moved Abel "as the Lord" said through Abel to declare the word as it is written…..Some say a theophany as in and the Lord said or others a dream. But they do not seem to fit into the dialog.
And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Genesis 4:6-7
Moved to hide the literal evidence.(walking by sight) Cain talked his brother Abel into taking a little walk like a lamb led to slaughter..
And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. Genesis 4:6-7
Luke 21:32's "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." INCLUDES everything in the verse (just a few words prior to this) in verse 24: "... and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
["the times of the Gentiles" not referring to what is sometimes called "the Church age"; and the above verses are saying the exact OPPOSITE from what Matthew 24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:12-13 is saying (which is their "gathering together TO" (see Isaiah 27:12-13 and "GREAT" trumpet there, and "to WHERE")]
["the times of the Gentiles" not referring to what is sometimes called "the Church age"; and the above verses are saying the exact OPPOSITE from what Matthew 24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:12-13 is saying (which is their "gathering together TO" (see Isaiah 27:12-13 and "GREAT" trumpet there, and "to WHERE")]
lol, Genesis 2:4 "and the end of the age",,,"this generation shall not pass till" https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-4.htm he's answering their question.
Times of the Gentiles was fulfilled in the end of Daniel's 70th week with the sack of the temple;
John Lightfoot's commentary:
[Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.] "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled": and what then? in what sense is this word until to be understood? Let every one have his conjecture, and let me be allowed mine. I am well assured our Saviour is discoursing about the fall and overthrow of Jerusalem; but I doubt, whether he touches upon the restoration of it: nor can I see any great reason to affirm, that the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled before the end of the world itself
John Lightfoot's commentary:
[Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.] "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled": and what then? in what sense is this word until to be understood? Let every one have his conjecture, and let me be allowed mine. I am well assured our Saviour is discoursing about the fall and overthrow of Jerusalem; but I doubt, whether he touches upon the restoration of it: nor can I see any great reason to affirm, that the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled before the end of the world itself
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He is taking pentecost out of context in order to try to refute him. It is what most people do when they try to refute something they do nto like. You can see even in the NT that the disciples did not understand what was happening, No one did, It was part of the “hidden mystery” spoken of continuously by Paul himself.
yes, the verses he is posting are there. And they seem to show things, But no one in the OT would have seen the church as it is in the first century, That was Pentecost argument, and he was correct.
yes, the verses he is posting are there. And they seem to show things, But no one in the OT would have seen the church as it is in the first century, That was Pentecost argument, and he was correct.
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As I see it, people tend to not be very careful when looking into Genesis re: "seed"
...because in Genesis, "seed" is in both the singular and the plural (sometimes the difference can even be detected by merely viewing the surrounding words, where used), and this is what we should take note of, when ascertaining just what Galatians 3:16[17-19] is conveying.
[example: in Gen12 "seed" is singular; in Gen22 "seed" is in both the singular and the plural (if memory serves...before coffee, could be faulty
I'll let you know later after pouring some in , lol )]
...because in Genesis, "seed" is in both the singular and the plural (sometimes the difference can even be detected by merely viewing the surrounding words, where used), and this is what we should take note of, when ascertaining just what Galatians 3:16[17-19] is conveying.
[example: in Gen12 "seed" is singular; in Gen22 "seed" is in both the singular and the plural (if memory serves...before coffee, could be faulty
I'll let you know later after pouring some in , lol )]-
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Quote by Wm Kelly on Galatians 3 (which some reader out there may find helpful ) -
[quoting]
"The latter part of the chapter takes up this question, and shows that God has given promises; and the question is, how to reconcile God's law with His promises. What did He give these two things for? Were they meant to produce the same end? Were they on the same principle? The Holy Ghost settles these questions. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed; which is Christ." Here it is plain, that the allusion is to two distinct and signal occasions in Abraham's history. These two occasions were first to Abraham alone; (Gen. 12; ) and secondly, to Isaac, or rather in Isaac alone. (Gen. 22) In the last chapter, both the numerous seed and the single seed are referred to. With the numerous seed God connects the possessing the gate of their enemies - that is, Jewish supremacy, But this is not what one acquires as a Christian. I do not want my enemies to be overthrown, but rather to be brought to Christ. But the Jews, as such, will have not only blessing through Christ by-and-by, but their enemies put down. Israel will be exalted in the earth, which God never promised to the Gentiles. In Genesis 22. the two things are quite distinct. Where the seed is spoken of without allusion to number, the blessing of the Gentiles comes in; but where they are said to be multiplied as the stars and the sand, then the character is unequivocally Jewish precedence. Such is, I believe, the argument of the apostle. Where Christ, typified by Isaac, is meant, it is "thy seed" simply, without a word of seed innumerable as the stars or the sand. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made;" namely, of the blessing of the Gentiles, and not merely of the putting down of the Gentiles. The promises were made first to Abraham, and then were confirmed in his seed. "He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and of thy seed, which is Christ." He takes Christ as the one intended by Isaac."
--William Kelly, Galatians 3 Commentary [source: Bible Hub; bold and underline mine]
) -[quoting]
"The latter part of the chapter takes up this question, and shows that God has given promises; and the question is, how to reconcile God's law with His promises. What did He give these two things for? Were they meant to produce the same end? Were they on the same principle? The Holy Ghost settles these questions. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed; which is Christ." Here it is plain, that the allusion is to two distinct and signal occasions in Abraham's history. These two occasions were first to Abraham alone; (Gen. 12; ) and secondly, to Isaac, or rather in Isaac alone. (Gen. 22) In the last chapter, both the numerous seed and the single seed are referred to. With the numerous seed God connects the possessing the gate of their enemies - that is, Jewish supremacy, But this is not what one acquires as a Christian. I do not want my enemies to be overthrown, but rather to be brought to Christ. But the Jews, as such, will have not only blessing through Christ by-and-by, but their enemies put down. Israel will be exalted in the earth, which God never promised to the Gentiles. In Genesis 22. the two things are quite distinct. Where the seed is spoken of without allusion to number, the blessing of the Gentiles comes in; but where they are said to be multiplied as the stars and the sand, then the character is unequivocally Jewish precedence. Such is, I believe, the argument of the apostle. Where Christ, typified by Isaac, is meant, it is "thy seed" simply, without a word of seed innumerable as the stars or the sand. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made;" namely, of the blessing of the Gentiles, and not merely of the putting down of the Gentiles. The promises were made first to Abraham, and then were confirmed in his seed. "He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and of thy seed, which is Christ." He takes Christ as the one intended by Isaac."
--William Kelly, Galatians 3 Commentary [source: Bible Hub; bold and underline mine]
70 AD was only a physical fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy that the temple would be destroyed. That prophecy required a literal fulfillment. It was also a spiritual fulfillment and sign of Jesus' redemptive power because it halted the sacrifices and made any component of Mosaic Law literally impossible to follow or obey.
Prophecy always requires a literal, testable, provebale fulfillment. It is never fulfilled only in a spiritual way. That would violate prophecy we know has already been fulfilled, and fulfilled in literal ways that agree 100% with a given text. When it is stated that when Jesus comes back, He will return in the same way He left, and every eye will see Him, it means exactly that. So we know Jesus didn't come back in 70 AD.
Matthew 24:20-34 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Amillennialists try to force the word "this" in verse 34 as applying to the Disciples, therefore, Jesus had to return before the Disciples died. Jesus is not speaking of that generation in verse 34. It is clear from the wording that He is speaking of the events He has just laid out beginning in verse 15. The generation that sees those things can anticipate Jesus' return at that time. You don't have a time of distress in 70 AD that has been unequalled since, so there is no way that the generation of the Disciples can be the generation Jesus is speaking to. That is just basic hermeneutics. Jesus is speaking of a future generation that will experience the events He lays out. Jesus never directly answered the Disciples when they asked Him when He was going to return and establish His Kingdom. because His return was going to be in the range of the future that they would not understand.
Prophecy always requires a literal, testable, provebale fulfillment. It is never fulfilled only in a spiritual way. That would violate prophecy we know has already been fulfilled, and fulfilled in literal ways that agree 100% with a given text. When it is stated that when Jesus comes back, He will return in the same way He left, and every eye will see Him, it means exactly that. So we know Jesus didn't come back in 70 AD.
Matthew 24:20-34 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days " 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Amillennialists try to force the word "this" in verse 34 as applying to the Disciples, therefore, Jesus had to return before the Disciples died. Jesus is not speaking of that generation in verse 34. It is clear from the wording that He is speaking of the events He has just laid out beginning in verse 15. The generation that sees those things can anticipate Jesus' return at that time. You don't have a time of distress in 70 AD that has been unequalled since, so there is no way that the generation of the Disciples can be the generation Jesus is speaking to. That is just basic hermeneutics. Jesus is speaking of a future generation that will experience the events He lays out. Jesus never directly answered the Disciples when they asked Him when He was going to return and establish His Kingdom. because His return was going to be in the range of the future that they would not understand.
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The one time outward demonstration of a work of the unseen work Spirit will not occur again . One is all that was promised. Some did know Christ who is not a man as us after the temporal corrupted flesh . But 2 Corinthians 5:16 informs us we know him that way no more, forever more.
It would appear to be the generation of Christ in whom he has spoken of in these last days. The genealogy is complete in respect to the spiritual seed . It is not speaking of the other generation, the generation of Adam the evil generation of natural unconverted men.
Matthew 1 King James Version (KJV) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Ending with the fulfillment Jesus, who is called Christ
Matthew 1 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ
The veil went rendered the temporal use of a temple standing in a shadow of the holy place marked by the reformation . Not when a literal stone that had lost its value to be used as a metaphor fell .
It would appear to be the generation of Christ in whom he has spoken of in these last days. The genealogy is complete in respect to the spiritual seed . It is not speaking of the other generation, the generation of Adam the evil generation of natural unconverted men.
Matthew 1 King James Version (KJV) The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Ending with the fulfillment Jesus, who is called Christ
Matthew 1 16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ
The veil went rendered the temporal use of a temple standing in a shadow of the holy place marked by the reformation . Not when a literal stone that had lost its value to be used as a metaphor fell .
U
Okay, let me see now...
So you are stating that the generation that sees the abomination of desolation is the generation that Christ is referring to?
As well you are stating that some of Matthew 24 is fulfilled and some is yet to be fulfilled, where is the delineation in the Olivet discourse between what has happened and what will happen?
So you are stating that the generation that sees the abomination of desolation is the generation that Christ is referring to?
As well you are stating that some of Matthew 24 is fulfilled and some is yet to be fulfilled, where is the delineation in the Olivet discourse between what has happened and what will happen?
In order to fulfill the promises made to them [to Israel].
And here (among other passages):
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in [G1525 - eiselthe / eiserchomai].
[the "fulness of the Gentiles" being a distinct phrase and meaning from "the TIMES of the Gentiles" ('Gentile domination over Israel' reflected in Neb's 'statue/image' dream, with Neb as 'head of gold' and which started in 606bc and ends at end of trib, per Rev11:1)]
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [/irrevocable].
[the section of Romans 9-11 being about "nations": "Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nations]"]
And here (among other passages):
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in [G1525 - eiselthe / eiserchomai].
[the "fulness of the Gentiles" being a distinct phrase and meaning from "the TIMES of the Gentiles" ('Gentile domination over Israel' reflected in Neb's 'statue/image' dream, with Neb as 'head of gold' and which started in 606bc and ends at end of trib, per Rev11:1)]
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [/irrevocable].
[the section of Romans 9-11 being about "nations": "Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nations]"]
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