Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[iamsoandso]

Hi thanks for the reply,

Those who die and are not raised to new spirit life have in effect been killed having not believed God. Satan is a murder from the beginning. We are born spiritually dead. Our corrupted spirit is dead along with a corrupted body. Given to the sword of the Spirit of God and eaten by birds are simply metaphors used to express death. The sword not seen kills, birds seen eat flesh and the flesh returns to the dust from where it was formed and the temporal spirit returns to the Holy Father who gave it temporally.

The mark of Cain and all who do not receive a new born again spirit that will never die is as in "mark My Word" What he says did come to pass . All of Cain's fears came to pass he did suffer as a restless wander having no sabbath rest that is part of salvation.

Buy spiritual truth and don't sell it for a cup of soup like Esau who also saw no value in the un-seen things of God, having the mark of natural unconverted man, as a beast of the field 666

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:21

lol,I always enjoy asking this to those who spiritualize everything away. At first I ask to see if they would all give the same answer but now I ask just to see how many different answers spiritualist will give to the same question. Not that my intention is to offend you it's just interesting that no two people who contend that things are all spiritually discerned ever seem to come up with the same spiritual answer. lol, I suppose that's what will happen though if we all spiritulize the Scriptures away.

 

[garee]

i hope you will see it to be false. even apostle's creed is after 70ad and its still saying Jesus returns to judge quick and dead

remember that its evil to say resurrection already happened. thats what st. paul warned hymeneus of?

The apostles creed is not a source of Christian faith . Jesus dwells in men that are here we mo longer know him after the flesh.

God who has no beginning of days or end of spirit life is not a man as us never was never could be. The one time demonstration of the Holy Spirit pouring His Spirit as if it was blood is over. The veil will not be mended and we can expect another demonstration. One is all that is needed. Why crucify Christ over and over to public shame as if one demonstration was not adequate ?

The first resurrection at the renting of the veil will continue to stay open till the last day . The second, the execution of the previous judgment will be on the last day when those reigning with Christ on earth together with those who had part in the first resurrection, the renting of the veil will both in the twinkling of the eye receive the promise our new incorruptible bodies .They as the chaste virgin bride of Christ will be neither male nor female, Jews nor gentile .But like the angels that have no DNA as a rudiment of this world they cannot multiply.

 

[UnderGrace]

respect each others opinions.

Hmm.... oh really?

Is that why your post on another thread was labelled "garbage"

 

[dcontroversal]

S

Yes, the number of a man, any man, all unconverted men that have no faith and neither any desire to buy the truth by believing God.

The beast is mankind they were made from the dust of the field. Satan has no DNA as a corrupted rudiment of this world. He is a lying spirit and needs DNA the temporal things seen in order to draw men away from the gospel of faith (the unseen thing of God).He used Cain as a anti-christ to kill the spreading of gospel. God raised up another in whom he also had favor as grace .

HAHAH OK.........GENESIS 3:15 <---is the seed of the woman real?

 

[dcontroversal]

I know what parousia means. Try looking up what the body of Christ is and open your eyes.

Pal my eyes are open.....and obviously you don't know.....

 

[iamsoandso]

Hmm.... oh really?

Is that why your post on another thread was labelled "garbage"

I cant control whether or not some will respect my oppinion so I suppose you are correct in that there are those who don't respect others opinions. I don't remember who it was who had no respect for my oppinion but thanks for mentioning it I forgive them.

 

[Journeyman]

Pal my eyes are open.....and obviously you don't know.....

More bologna like your next comment.

dcontroversal said
HAHAH OK.........GENESIS 3:15 <---is the seed of the woman real?

Of course neglect to mention the "seed" of the woman being spoken of is God. Just more misdirection.

 

[azamzimtoti]

It seems to me the "term" spiritualizing gets thrown around while failing to see that Peter did exactly that in Acts regarding David's throne/tent.

(Acts 15:16-17 After this I will return, and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the rest of humanity may seek the Lord, namely, all the Gentiles I have called to be my own,' says the Lord, who makes these things)

The above is from Amos:

(Amos 9:11 "In that day I will rebuild the collapsing hut of David. I will seal its gaps, repair its ruins, and restore it to what it was like in days gone by.)

The Gentiles were being called "my own" when Peter stated the above, therefore the only conclusion is Peter is claiming a "spiritual" fulfillment of Amos. Now I'm not saying that all prophecies should be "spiritualized", but Peter has set a precedent here.

He further states that David's throne is heavenly and not earthly:

(Acts 2:30 So then, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne)

(Acts 2:33 So then, exalted to the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you both see and hear.)

(Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says, 'The Lord said to my lord, "Sit at my right hand.) etc.

 

[UnderGrace]

It seems to me the "term" spiritualizing gets thrown around while failing to see that Peter did exactly that in Acts regarding David's throne/tent.

(Acts 15:16-17 After this I will return, and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the rest of humanity may seek the Lord, namely, all the Gentiles I have called to be my own,' says the Lord, who makes these things)

The above is from Amos:

(Amos 9:11 "In that day I will rebuild the collapsing hut of David. I will seal its gaps, repair its ruins, and restore it to what it was like in days gone by.)

The Gentiles were being called "my own" when Peter stated the above, therefore the only conclusion is Peter is claiming a "spiritual" fulfillment of Amos. Now I'm not saying that all prophecies should be "spiritualized", but Peter has set a precedent here.

He further states that David's throne is heavenly and not earthly:

(Acts 2:30 So then, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne)

(Acts 2:33 So then, exalted to the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you both see and hear.)

(Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says, 'The Lord said to my lord, "Sit at my right hand.) etc.

I can add one more thing there is a certain connotation that "spiritual" is less real ...that makes no sense to me

 

[azamzimtoti]

I can add one more thing there is a certain connotation that "spiritual" is less real

That does seem to be the "case".

that makes no sense to me

Me neither.

 

[garee]

lol,I always enjoy asking this to those who spiritualize everything away. At first I ask to see if they would all give the same answer but now I ask just to see how many different answers spiritualist will give to the same question. Not that my intention is to offend you it's just interesting that no two people who contend that things are all spiritually discerned ever seem to come up with the same spiritual answer. lol, I suppose that's what will happen though if we all spiritulize the Scriptures away.

Thanks. With all due respect it seems to be as a mystery .Which side is up, or how can we hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches? The unbelieving Jew turned that upside down taking away the understanding that comes from hearing God alone. rather than the daily bread of his will inspired from above loosened in the hearts of men on earth. Those kind of faithless fathers refused to believe God and said we will rather do whatsoever our own mouths say as oral traditions of men as if things were loosed or inspired from earth and not heaven ..God sent them a strong delusion to believe the lie and see no evil in doin so. (Jerimiah 44:16-17)

Isaiah 29:16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?


I think like fingerprints our understanding differs some what from one another as we offer our private interpretations, or person commentary of what we think the Holy Spirit as his revelation, a witness of one working in the affairs of men is teaching us, as we do seek His approved, as lovingly commanded. .

Early in my walk (30's) when reading, studying. Things would at times seem unfamiliar to my understanding? Many things seemed to be signified using the things seen to represent the unseen eternal things of God. You could say in one sense likened to what is called hidden manna. Manna meaning; What is it? . Using that word manna In order to help us understand the hidden spiritual. The Holy Spirit witnessing to our new spirit.

We are born with no familiarity of His Spirit (no faith coming from hearing God) a person must be born again .God is not a man as us. Familiarity can breed prideful contentment to become non- productive as lukewarm and we can vomit the little honey we could of had, helping us by humbling us to do his will. We have that power of Christ in us but is not of us. There must be differences called heresies among us. differences can be to defend the faith that come from hearing our God.

I could ask the same. Why literalize away every thing that is declared as signified? Why not just inspire it as literal ?

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

I suppose in the opposite or upside down way you said; that's what will happen though if we all literalize the Scriptures away. The two what I would call wakeup sparks, iron sharpens iron meet somewhere in between .Hopefully they both sharpen the swords that defend us as the faith of Christ that works in us ? Possibly why Jesus said two swords it and not they is enough. One for different kind of purposes ? Each division to the end time timing is divided . Catholic use the Amil but cannot define it using the scriptures. The same as their apposing sect the Protestants. Most were from the Amil camp. What changed as to how we can hear what the Spirit says to the churches as he gives us ears to understand the things not seen ?

 

[Angela53510]

thats interesting quote but did you know dear friend that c.h. spurgeon was a premillennialist?

I think Sproule is an amazing Bible teacher. But, my understanding is that he changed his eschatology many times during his life. Here is a quote saying he changed to become a post-millennialist.

"A recent noteworthy “convert” to postmillennialism is R. C. Sproul, who invited me to speak on postmillennialism and preterism at his 1999 National Conference in Orlando."
http://www.reformationonline.com/debate.htm

(The link is an interesting article, explaining some of the the resurgence of several types of eschatology.)

Here is an article saying he is a leading proponent of Amillennialism.

"Leading contemporary "amill" theologians would include popular writers such as J. I. Packer, Mike Horton, [the late] Calvin seminary professor, Anthony Hoekema, and RC Sproul. In addition, all of the Reformers, as well as the Reformed and Lutheran confessional traditions, as a whole, have been amillennial."
https://www.fivesolas.com/esc_chrt.htm

John MacArthur said, regarding RC Sproule, that he had "somewhat fluid opinions about eschatology" which would summarize it best!
https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B171214

One final quote, which I agree with:

"After all, Dr. R.C. Sproul teaches, the literature in which millennial teaching is found is difficult to interpret and should caution us against dogmatism on this issue."
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/millennium-part-i/

PS. Sorry, I tried many search words, and could not find anything saying RC Sproule was a premillennialism. I would appreciate you posting a quote where he said he was. (I'm not saying it is impossible, just that I could not find it. Thanks!)

 

[garee]

I can add one more thing there is a certain connotation that "spiritual" is less real ...that makes no sense to me

Amen. It can't be less spiritual. The literal is used to represent the spiritual as one work of faith, called mixing faith (Hebrew 4) the unseen in what the eyes do see the temporal . Like love and marriage can't have one without the other. Then comes the space invaders called babies in a carriage .LOL

Or the Father and the Son. Can't have one without the other.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[UnderGrace]

Dr. R.C. Sproul teaches, the literature in which millennial teaching is found is difficult to interpret and should caution us against dogmatism on this issue.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/millennium-part-i/


Wise words

 

[garee]

S


HAHAH OK.........GENESIS 3:15 <---is the seed of the woman real?

Yes the real seed of Christ .and the real bride of Christ. It is the spiritual seed of Christ. It shall bruise the authority of the father of lies called the head. And that suffering as Christ pours out his Spirit life on His chaste virgin bride the church in jeopardy of His own Spirit. It shall bruise the heel of Christ, our husband

We can look at the parable below..

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Genesis 3:15

 

[Angela53510]

For the record, I am a partial Pretertist, Amillennialist who believes that we will have a renewed earth, and of course, no rapture.

I agree with Undergrace on many things, but not that Jesus returned in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple. Although, that was a most significant time, as far as the old covenant being ended, and the new being started, purely for physical reasons. When the temple burnt to the ground, the treasured genealogical records, which distinguished the Jews as "God's people" were destroyed. That ushered in the new covenant, where there is no Plan B, salvation is only through Jesus Christ, with no second chance for the Jews.

I have tried over my life to be open minded about this difficult topic. I attended dispensationalist churches the first 15 years I was saved. I wrote every sermon down, checked every Scripture, and it always seemed like such a mish mash of verses. (I didn't know the word "context" then, but the verses were all "out of context!") I finally decided to read the Bible through a few times, looking only for things pertaining to end times, especially all the key premillinnial phrases. On the first read, I could not find them. I looked them up in Strong's, and couldn't find them. That, is when I really started searching the Bible for myself. I had read the Hal Lindsey books, couldn't stand them. The whole futurist thing made no sense, in terms of what the Bible said.

I settled on Amillennial, it seemed to be the most open. (Oh, there are many different types of Amillennialism. Some believe the Kingdom of God will be lived in heaven, others on the earth.) I have been through many threads here and elsewhere, and when people start interpreting the Bible, in terms of "it is all about us," it drives me rank! Some kind of eschatological personality disorder, for sure!

No one has ever convinced me to change my position, using actual Bible verses, and not false predictions cobbled together. I have read many scholarly books about this topic, and I know there are many who support various viewpoints. But, again, they simply have not convinced me. I would rather refer people to books that are well written by scholars, who support one or another of the views.

Here is one I have not yet read, but it promises that each viewpoint is defended by a scholar who personality believes in that view.

The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views (Spectrum Multiview Book Series)
by Robert G. Clouse (Editor), & 4 more

Grenz leans towards Amillennialism, but reviews say the book is very irenic, and he looks often for similarities, rather than differences, as he presents the 4 options. (He is a favourite author of mine!)

The Millennial Maze: Sorting Out Evangelical Options
by Stanley J. Grenz

 

[Melach]

im looking into this dwight pentecost things to come. eternally-gratefull recommends it to me i like eternally-gratefull he is a friendly guy

its really good

i dont know why God would be against dispensationalism if they have such clear charts? very not confusing and orderly. almost like science book. what others have it? God is not the author of confusion. they say its new but what if its in last times God tells us the truth on prophecy? remember daniel was said to lock until the end of times and knowledge shall increase many shall go to and fro.

i would like to make a thread about this too but im too shy. i dont know how to host one or what to say. i got nothing to contribute.

 

[dcontroversal]

More bologna like your next comment.

Of course neglect to mention the "seed" of the woman being spoken of is God. Just more misdirection.

Keep flappin......I forgot to mention nothing and like normal the POINT went so far above your head that you would get a nose bleed if you actually looked up and understood it..... HAHA wow.....another cake taker

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes the real seed of Christ .and the real bride of Christ. It is the spiritual seed of Christ. It shall bruise the authority of the father of lies called the head. And that suffering as Christ pours out his Spirit life on His chaste virgin bride the church in jeopardy of His own Spirit. It shall bruise the heel of Christ, our husband

We can look at the parable below..

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Genesis 3:15

The seed of the woman IS Christ........and the struggle of the seed of the woman is CHRIST against the SEED of the Serpent....but hey...let's all spiritualize this away instead of acknowledging the facts.......

 

[UnderGrace]

Thanks for the links...summer reading if we ever get one sooo cold still here.

I have not come to any conclusion on Jesus having returned in 70 AD, although it seems R.C. Sproul seems to believe so, which I find interesting .

I am just looking at the lesser known details of 70 AD to see how the historical record (very fascinating) parallels with Matthew 24 to start.

Some kind of eschatological personality disorder, for sure!

Too funny!!

I think I had this for a while...I will admit, but I have recovered thankfully...my kids are glad I am sure.

For the record, I am a partial Pretertist, Amillennialist who believes that we will have a renewed earth, and of course, no rapture.

I agree with Undergrace on many things, but not that Jesus returned in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple. Although, that was a most significant time, as far as the old covenant being ended, and the new being started, purely for physical reasons. When the temple burnt to the ground, the treasured genealogical records, which distinguished the Jews as "God's people" were destroyed. That ushered in the new covenant, where there is no Plan B, salvation is only through Jesus Christ, with no second chance for the Jews.

I have tried over my life to be open minded about this difficult topic. I attended dispensationalist churches the first 15 years I was saved. I wrote every sermon down, checked every Scripture, and it always seemed like such a mish mash of verses. (I didn't know the word "context" then, but the verses were all "out of context!") I finally decided to read the Bible through a few times, looking only for things pertaining to end times, especially all the key premillinnial phrases. On the first read, I could not find them. I looked them up in Strong's, and couldn't find them. That, is when I really started searching the Bible for myself. I had read the Hal Lindsey books, couldn't stand them. The whole futurist thing made no sense, in terms of what the Bible said.

I settled on Amillennial, it seemed to be the most open. (Oh, there are many different types of Amillennialism. Some believe the Kingdom of God will be lived in heaven, others on the earth.) I have been through many threads here and elsewhere, and when people start interpreting the Bible, in terms of "it is all about us," it drives me rank! Some kind of eschatological personality disorder, for sure!

No one has ever convinced me to change my position, using actual Bible verses, and not false predictions cobbled together. I have read many scholarly books about this topic, and I know there are many who support various viewpoints. But, again, they simply have not convinced me. I would rather refer people to books that are well written by scholars, who support one or another of the views.

Here is one I have not yet read, but it promises that each viewpoint is defended by a scholar who personality believes in that view.

The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views (Spectrum Multiview Book Series)
by Robert G. Clouse (Editor), & 4 more

Grenz leans towards Amillennialism, but reviews say the book is very irenic, and he looks often for similarities, rather than differences, as he presents the 4 options. (He is a favourite author of mine!)

The Millennial Maze: Sorting Out Evangelical Options
by Stanley J. Grenz