A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?
- Thread starter Mary96
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
So I have been watching the incredibly non-existant exegetics of a few of the men on this thread, and biting my tongue. But I am going to jump in, only to repeat myself AGAIN with a close look at what the Greek actually says, and say that those men who keep saying women can't be pastors are going to have to answer to God for their constant repeating of this false doctrine!
First of all, you don't make doctrine based on a few disputed Scriptures. Esp. when they have been translated wrongly.
AUTHORITY
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV
Looks good, right men? (Excepting Elf, of course, and Stephen I guess!)
We won't even get into the fact that ESV has a firmly bias towards complementarians, which is states clearly in the footnotes of the study Bible.
More or less, the same thing that KJV says, kind of just modernizing it a bit.
"For I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a mature man, but to be at rest." 1 Tim. 1:12 KJV
Basically, the word "authority" is translated totally wrong! Of course, how simple!
But really, the noun εξουσια (exousia) is the word the New Testament uses to translate the word authority. Eg. Matt 28:18 where Jesus has been given "all authority." Or Romans 13:1 where we are to obey the authorities, because all authority is given by God.
The word in 1 Tim. 2:12 is NOT exousia, but rather αὐθεντεῖν or authentein. This word is a hapax legomena, which appears only once in the Bible. This means you cannot find the word anywhere else to compare how Paul or anyone else translated it.
In fact, you have to look at contemporaneous sources (ie, other writings from the first century) to find a definition, and there are over 50 different uses, ranging from murder and copulation to domineering. But most often it is translated domineering.
Plus, it is an infinitive, which means that in pretty much every other case in the New Testament, you translate the verb "to verb" Therefore, you either have to add words, like "usurp" and "exercise" which are verbs, and make them start with "to" to fit the proper definition and grammar of the word.
So "a woman is not to exercise a man" or "a woman is not to usurp a man". No mention of the word "authority" whatsoever in Greek! NOT AT ALL!
So if you translate it using the verb domineer, which is probably most likely, you get, "And not to domineer a man." Sounds reasonable to me! As believers we are not to domineer over other believers! Mutual submission, like Eph. 5:20 says. And then you don't have to add that extra word "exercise" or "usurp" which is needed as a verb, because authority is a noun. Just a small piece of grammar the translators seemed to miss!
Of course, we can get into the cultural reasons why women were not allowed to teach in Ephesus, home of the temple of Artemis, one of the 7 original wonders of the world. A cult dedicated to women, who were in charge, and also highly uneducated, like all the women of their culture. And we might add, a little wild, those women??
As for keeping silent, well, another poor translation, based on the 16th century treatment that women were less than people. Probably quiet would be a better word, and consistent with the Jewish rabbinical practice that students were to learn quietly before the Master. So actually, Paul is giving permission in this and other places for a woman to learn. In fact, I believe he encourages it.
As for 1 Cor. 14:33-34, a very simple explanation.
"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says."
In fact, the only confusion comes from the fact that the punctuation is in the wrong place!
"For God is not a God of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."
You see, the original Greek was in majuscules, or capitals, all squished together, and no punctuation. Very easy to put a period in the wrong place if it suits your purpose. ESV continues its translation following the culture of 16th century KJ, a very male hierarchical (as I said, they call themselves "complementarians" but you get the idea!) and they have lovingly retained the KJV mistake. LOL!
Now the reason scholars know the punctuation is in the wrong place, is because of the last part of the passage.
"As the law says". Except for in no place does it say in the law, that women should not speak, not even in the synagogue. So Paul is likely quoting someone, and being sarcastic.
I was in an Orthodox synagogue two years ago when I took Hebrew, and the women talked to each other, and to the men over the barriers separating the men from the women. They obviously had never heard of a law prohibiting women from speaking either!
So those are what are fondly known as "the two disputed passages." Of course, their are other texts, but I have been through all of them with a fine tooth comb, and none of them has any validity restricting women from ministry. Or that a man has "authority over a women" at all!
There are those pesky Roman household and Greek household codes, which Paul and Peter both try to use to have people be better witnesses to the surrounding cultures, but even if you want to go with marriage roles (which I do not!) there is simply no biblical basis for any man having authority over every woman.
There will always be a need for women to be pastors, and despite a few exceptions made popular in the media, most women are doing a great job of teaching and preaching the Bible, especially to other women. But a good woman preacher can also preach to men, and men need to just humble their arrogant and WRONG interpretation of the Bible and listen to what women who are called by God have to say.
I can say from my Seminary experience in a Southern Baptist Seminary, (they do not believe women can be preachers, at least in the US!) that a woman called by God to be a pastor has a huge battle to fight to find a pastorate, or be accepted. I've seen some terrible men preach in Seminary, and get called the minute they finish their degrees (I've seen some awesome men of God, too!)
No woman in their right mind would fight to be a pastor if God had not truly called her. And those same women that I have met are all brilliant women who could have found careers in any field, but chose to obey God instead. That is the true sign of the calling of a pastor. Obeying God no matter what the cost!
First of all, you don't make doctrine based on a few disputed Scriptures. Esp. when they have been translated wrongly.
AUTHORITY
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV
Looks good, right men? (Excepting Elf, of course, and Stephen I guess!)
We won't even get into the fact that ESV has a firmly bias towards complementarians, which is states clearly in the footnotes of the study Bible.
More or less, the same thing that KJV says, kind of just modernizing it a bit.
"For I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a mature man, but to be at rest." 1 Tim. 1:12 KJV
Basically, the word "authority" is translated totally wrong! Of course, how simple!
But really, the noun εξουσια (exousia) is the word the New Testament uses to translate the word authority. Eg. Matt 28:18 where Jesus has been given "all authority." Or Romans 13:1 where we are to obey the authorities, because all authority is given by God.
The word in 1 Tim. 2:12 is NOT exousia, but rather αὐθεντεῖν or authentein. This word is a hapax legomena, which appears only once in the Bible. This means you cannot find the word anywhere else to compare how Paul or anyone else translated it.
In fact, you have to look at contemporaneous sources (ie, other writings from the first century) to find a definition, and there are over 50 different uses, ranging from murder and copulation to domineering. But most often it is translated domineering.
Plus, it is an infinitive, which means that in pretty much every other case in the New Testament, you translate the verb "to verb" Therefore, you either have to add words, like "usurp" and "exercise" which are verbs, and make them start with "to" to fit the proper definition and grammar of the word.
So "a woman is not to exercise a man" or "a woman is not to usurp a man". No mention of the word "authority" whatsoever in Greek! NOT AT ALL!
So if you translate it using the verb domineer, which is probably most likely, you get, "And not to domineer a man." Sounds reasonable to me! As believers we are not to domineer over other believers! Mutual submission, like Eph. 5:20 says. And then you don't have to add that extra word "exercise" or "usurp" which is needed as a verb, because authority is a noun. Just a small piece of grammar the translators seemed to miss!
Of course, we can get into the cultural reasons why women were not allowed to teach in Ephesus, home of the temple of Artemis, one of the 7 original wonders of the world. A cult dedicated to women, who were in charge, and also highly uneducated, like all the women of their culture. And we might add, a little wild, those women??
As for keeping silent, well, another poor translation, based on the 16th century treatment that women were less than people. Probably quiet would be a better word, and consistent with the Jewish rabbinical practice that students were to learn quietly before the Master. So actually, Paul is giving permission in this and other places for a woman to learn. In fact, I believe he encourages it.
As for 1 Cor. 14:33-34, a very simple explanation.
"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says."
In fact, the only confusion comes from the fact that the punctuation is in the wrong place!
"For God is not a God of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."
You see, the original Greek was in majuscules, or capitals, all squished together, and no punctuation. Very easy to put a period in the wrong place if it suits your purpose. ESV continues its translation following the culture of 16th century KJ, a very male hierarchical (as I said, they call themselves "complementarians" but you get the idea!) and they have lovingly retained the KJV mistake. LOL!
Now the reason scholars know the punctuation is in the wrong place, is because of the last part of the passage.
"As the law says". Except for in no place does it say in the law, that women should not speak, not even in the synagogue. So Paul is likely quoting someone, and being sarcastic.
I was in an Orthodox synagogue two years ago when I took Hebrew, and the women talked to each other, and to the men over the barriers separating the men from the women. They obviously had never heard of a law prohibiting women from speaking either!
So those are what are fondly known as "the two disputed passages." Of course, their are other texts, but I have been through all of them with a fine tooth comb, and none of them has any validity restricting women from ministry. Or that a man has "authority over a women" at all!
There are those pesky Roman household and Greek household codes, which Paul and Peter both try to use to have people be better witnesses to the surrounding cultures, but even if you want to go with marriage roles (which I do not!) there is simply no biblical basis for any man having authority over every woman.
There will always be a need for women to be pastors, and despite a few exceptions made popular in the media, most women are doing a great job of teaching and preaching the Bible, especially to other women. But a good woman preacher can also preach to men, and men need to just humble their arrogant and WRONG interpretation of the Bible and listen to what women who are called by God have to say.
I can say from my Seminary experience in a Southern Baptist Seminary, (they do not believe women can be preachers, at least in the US!) that a woman called by God to be a pastor has a huge battle to fight to find a pastorate, or be accepted. I've seen some terrible men preach in Seminary, and get called the minute they finish their degrees (I've seen some awesome men of God, too!)
No woman in their right mind would fight to be a pastor if God had not truly called her. And those same women that I have met are all brilliant women who could have found careers in any field, but chose to obey God instead. That is the true sign of the calling of a pastor. Obeying God no matter what the cost!
Sister Angela............please, I'm begging you please do not try to enlighten these souls...........they who beat their chests and preach all scripture MUST be read in "context" and then turn a blind eye to context when this subject is brought up.
Please give them over to themselves............pray for them...........I have bitten my tongue ever since this thread began......and will not address it directly.............anyway......God bless.......
Please give them over to themselves............pray for them...........I have bitten my tongue ever since this thread began......and will not address it directly.............anyway......God bless.......
I beseech thee to look at "Tigger's" posts. That would be, Utah Tigger. 
Excuses, excuses, we need Tiggers like you!!
Hmm! My Jesus died on the cross 2000 years ago, the final and once for all sacrifice for sin.
"For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. [SUP]27 [/SUP]He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself." Hebrews 7:26-27
No altars, no knee bending, no Levites or priests except the one after the order of Melchizedek.
"So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]as he says also in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.” Hebrews 5:5-6
"We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, [SUP]20 [/SUP]where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." Hebrews 6:19-20
And you don't even spell the word "altar" correctly! May God preserve us from ignorant and uneducated men!
"For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. [SUP]27 [/SUP]He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself." Hebrews 7:26-27
No altars, no knee bending, no Levites or priests except the one after the order of Melchizedek.
"So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]as he says also in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.” Hebrews 5:5-6
"We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, [SUP]20 [/SUP]where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." Hebrews 6:19-20
And you don't even spell the word "altar" correctly! May God preserve us from ignorant and uneducated men!
And the people who are led to Christ by women, what of them? Does not their eternity mean anything to you? Even if only one person throughout all human history is brought to Christ by a woman pastor then women pastors are justified. Thankfully that number is more than one. I bet you its at least ten.
That women are to be excluded from ordained ministry has nothing to do with a view of women being inferior in any wise. It has to do with respecting the order of creation and the authorities God laid down in same. The church of God has always kept this order until just very recently. All you who advocate female pastors and preachers may look up in church history who and where it started off with same and how long time it has been among some mainstream denominations.
K
Gospel Answers - Women Preachers: Forbidden in the Bible?
This piece may find you agreeing with Angela. A 5 minute read. We can't be afraid to seek answers to our questions ... even at the risk of perhaps having been wrong.
And of course there is the issue of the Scriptural fact that women in the past, and even in Paul’s day, did indeed teach and have authority over or with men (e.g., the prophetess Deborah in Judges 4, Aquila and Pricilla in Acts 18:26). Paul certainly knew of Deborah and others, so it seems strange that Paul should contradict prior revelation. The main point here is that there might be a level of eisegesis (reading into the text) going on when interpreters come to conclusions that are not clearly stated in the text.
This piece may find you agreeing with Angela. A 5 minute read. We can't be afraid to seek answers to our questions ... even at the risk of perhaps having been wrong.
And of course there is the issue of the Scriptural fact that women in the past, and even in Paul’s day, did indeed teach and have authority over or with men (e.g., the prophetess Deborah in Judges 4, Aquila and Pricilla in Acts 18:26). Paul certainly knew of Deborah and others, so it seems strange that Paul should contradict prior revelation. The main point here is that there might be a level of eisegesis (reading into the text) going on when interpreters come to conclusions that are not clearly stated in the text.