I agree that there are many shepherds that are teaching false doctrines, and are not able to feed the newborn babes with the nourishment that they need to grow into maturity, but the shepherds in the true church, the visible church, the remnant, are very capable of teaching the doctrine that Jesus taught. The purpose of the shepherds is not to save people eternally, but to deliver (save) newborn babes in Christ from their lack of knowledge of the gospel. The scriptures do not inform us how we are to get saved eternally, but they do inform us how that we are saved eternally by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.
A Divided Church?
- Thread starter WalkerAllan
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We should not forget that it is because the New Testament church pattern has generally been abandoned that there are few genuine shepherds in the churches.
Chances are that the problem will remain and become worse, since the preachers have also (a) abandoned the true Bible and gone after corrupt modern versions, (b) stopped teaching Bible doctrine from Scripture and (c) allowed the customs and whims of the world to enter into the churches.
Chances are that the problem will remain and become worse, since the preachers have also (a) abandoned the true Bible and gone after corrupt modern versions, (b) stopped teaching Bible doctrine from Scripture and (c) allowed the customs and whims of the world to enter into the churches.
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The question remains: “whereto from here”?
—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12‑13, NIV)
We are to “work out our salvation.” Yet we cannot do this until we have an understanding of what God is working within us and why.
To start, he is sharing his nature with us.
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, … (2 Peter 1:4, NIV)
Then he has given us the gift of his righteousness.
…how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! (Romans 5:17, NIV)
Our faith in what he has provided for us is the starting point. As we allow ourselves to be “led by the Spirit we start to find answers to such questions as “how is God planning to express his life in me”?
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. (Romans 8:14, NIV)
Learning to yield ourselves to what God is doing within us provides a solid path for our “way forward.”
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10, NIV)
It is when we allow ourselves to get involved in such debates as “the Bible translation I read is better than yours” that we start to loose the plot. This is the sort if thing being referred to in 2 Timothy 2:23.
—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12‑13, NIV)
We are to “work out our salvation.” Yet we cannot do this until we have an understanding of what God is working within us and why.
To start, he is sharing his nature with us.
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, … (2 Peter 1:4, NIV)
Then he has given us the gift of his righteousness.
…how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! (Romans 5:17, NIV)
Our faith in what he has provided for us is the starting point. As we allow ourselves to be “led by the Spirit we start to find answers to such questions as “how is God planning to express his life in me”?
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. (Romans 8:14, NIV)
Learning to yield ourselves to what God is doing within us provides a solid path for our “way forward.”
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10, NIV)
It is when we allow ourselves to get involved in such debates as “the Bible translation I read is better than yours” that we start to loose the plot. This is the sort if thing being referred to in 2 Timothy 2:23.
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Most pastors are not teachers. Apart from anything else, the job of a teacher is to disciple. The fact that the church does not recognize the ministry of teacher, it is very difficult for any church to disciple. For many churches being Christian is a part-time occupation which you fit in around your other non-christian activity.
A church that is following the precepts of scripture will ditch the Sunday meeting in favour of the four pillars of the church. Namely, teaching, fellowship, prayer and communal meals. If churches made Sunday a day set aside to achieve these things they would be much more effective and powerful.
I was part of a church in the UK for 10 years that spent all day in fellowship with each other on Sunday. It certainly fired you up for the rest of the week.
A church that is following the precepts of scripture will ditch the Sunday meeting in favour of the four pillars of the church. Namely, teaching, fellowship, prayer and communal meals. If churches made Sunday a day set aside to achieve these things they would be much more effective and powerful.
I was part of a church in the UK for 10 years that spent all day in fellowship with each other on Sunday. It certainly fired you up for the rest of the week.
My understanding of "working out your own salvation", is; if we do not understand that salvation is "a deliverance", there would seem to be a contradiction in the scripture that "salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast". There is an eternal salvation (deliverance) that is by God's sovereign grace without the works of man, and there is a salvation (deliverance) by the good works of man that the regenerated child of God receives as he sojourns here on earth
Thanks for the response, I didnt notice your background, sorry for the false identity.
I would find myself favoring the Baptist lineage also
I read a tract one, (The Trail of Blood) seen below, pretty interesting showing g the Baptist Lineage.
Wikipedia: The Trail of Blood, a 1931 book by American Southern Baptist minister James Milton Carroll (1852-1931), comprising a collection of five lectures he gave on the history of Baptist churches, which he presented as a succession from the first Christians.
Timeline from 'The Trail of Blood
See also: Proto-Protestantism
The full title is The Trail of Blood: Following the Christians Down through the Centuries: or, The History of Baptist Churches from the Time of Christ, Their Founder, to the Present Day.[1] Carroll presents modern Baptists as the direct successors of a strain of Christianity dating to apostolic times, reflecting a Landmarkist view first promoted in the mid-nineteenth century by James Robinson Graves (1820-1893). Graves had started an influential movement in Tennessee and the western states. The Landmark controversy divided many Baptists, and ultimately led to the formation of the American Baptist Association in 1924, as well as of Gospel Missions[citation needed] and unaffiliated churches. This is a belief called Baptist successionism.
Carroll claims that modern Baptists descend from such earlier groups as:
James Edward McGoldrick wrote a response to Carroll's work called Baptist Successionism which gave researched opposition to the theory of "Baptist successionism."[citation needed]
As of 2010 Ashland Avenue Baptist Church in Lexington, Kentucky held the copyright to Carroll's book.[
I would find myself favoring the Baptist lineage also
I read a tract one, (The Trail of Blood) seen below, pretty interesting showing g the Baptist Lineage.
Wikipedia: The Trail of Blood, a 1931 book by American Southern Baptist minister James Milton Carroll (1852-1931), comprising a collection of five lectures he gave on the history of Baptist churches, which he presented as a succession from the first Christians.
Timeline from 'The Trail of Blood
See also: Proto-Protestantism
The full title is The Trail of Blood: Following the Christians Down through the Centuries: or, The History of Baptist Churches from the Time of Christ, Their Founder, to the Present Day.[1] Carroll presents modern Baptists as the direct successors of a strain of Christianity dating to apostolic times, reflecting a Landmarkist view first promoted in the mid-nineteenth century by James Robinson Graves (1820-1893). Graves had started an influential movement in Tennessee and the western states. The Landmark controversy divided many Baptists, and ultimately led to the formation of the American Baptist Association in 1924, as well as of Gospel Missions[citation needed] and unaffiliated churches. This is a belief called Baptist successionism.
Carroll claims that modern Baptists descend from such earlier groups as:
- the Waldensians (founded in the 1170s, based in the Cottian Alps)
- the Cathari (or Novatianists) (founded in the 3rd century)
- the Paulicians (founded c. 650 in Armenia)
- the Donatists (originating in North Africa in the 4th century)
James Edward McGoldrick wrote a response to Carroll's work called Baptist Successionism which gave researched opposition to the theory of "Baptist successionism."[citation needed]
As of 2010 Ashland Avenue Baptist Church in Lexington, Kentucky held the copyright to Carroll's book.[
Where I am now is trying to differentiate today between general baptists and particular baptists. This difference is not noted or indicated anymore it seems, but I believe it still exists.
It definitely appears that some branches within baptists are particular. Especially if they have a confession of faith, which is very similar to the Wesminster Confession of Faith. Other indicators are like I have seen with the primitive baptists that they insist the bread must be unleavened and the wine having alcoholic content. These things although not confirmative do indicate that primitive baptists are particular and thus have not completely broken from the Anglican Church.
At current it seems the Southern Baptist Convention is the last and/or best bastion of the general baptist beliefs. However, I know it hyper-calvinism is influxing and with it adherance to doctinal statesments. The other branch within Baptists I am more interested in learning about is GARB.
I find that the Independant Baptist fellowships are more closely aligned with historical tradition than mainstream, such as the Southern Baptist convention,that has moved towards the world over the past 50 years?
Wikipedia: Independent Baptist churches (some also called Independent Fundamental Baptist, Independent Fundamentalist Baptist or IFB) are Christian congregations, generally holding to conservative (primarily fundamentalist) Baptist beliefs. The term independent refers to the doctrinal position of church autonomy and a refusal to join any affiliated Baptist denomination, convention or hierarchical structure.
Wikipedia: Independent Baptist churches (some also called Independent Fundamental Baptist, Independent Fundamentalist Baptist or IFB) are Christian congregations, generally holding to conservative (primarily fundamentalist) Baptist beliefs. The term independent refers to the doctrinal position of church autonomy and a refusal to join any affiliated Baptist denomination, convention or hierarchical structure.
Has Matthew 24:26 been fulfilled or partially fulfilled?
Matthew 24:26
New International Version
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
King James Bible
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Matthew 24:26
New International Version
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
King James Bible
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
First Vatican Council declares, " and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles,"
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum20.htm
So they are declaring that the Roman pontiff is an apostle.
Here are more words from the First Vatican Council, "That apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching"
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum20.htm
Pope claims to have apostolic primacy meaning he is claiming to be an apostle. Pope is claiming to apostolic succession of apostle peter. He is claiming to be an apostle. My question is valid. I will repeat. Is Pope a true apostle or a false apostle?
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum20.htm
So they are declaring that the Roman pontiff is an apostle.
Here are more words from the First Vatican Council, "That apostolic primacy which the Roman pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching"
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum20.htm
Pope claims to have apostolic primacy meaning he is claiming to be an apostle. Pope is claiming to apostolic succession of apostle peter. He is claiming to be an apostle. My question is valid. I will repeat. Is Pope a true apostle or a false apostle?
I have to take strong exception to many of your comments.
The primary purpose of the Church/Assembly is the "Edification" of the Saints. Therefore teaching is front and center with Worship. A true God called Man/Pastor will be an able teacher. In addition we are commanded to keep the Lord's Day.
While it is true that most so called Churches that I have attended over the years, don't teach enough Scripture - that is teaching so that Scripture interprets Scripture, to choke a gnat. They are full of Humanism. Cute little stories that don't teach a hill of beans.
There have always been problems in the assemblies on Earth, just read the first three chapters of Revelation. (These seven assemblies represent the assemblies of every age).
Fellowship is great but fellowship without leadership can be disastrous. Fellowship without an elder/teacher to guide, can lead to error in Doctrine and groups of differing opinion.
The largest problem I see today, is severe Doctrinal error, if not down right Heresy. Each true believer must decide how they are going to limit their fellowship. If we compromise Truth then we can have more fellowship with men but risk losing fellowship with God. Or we can stand firmly for Truth and lose fellowship with men but gain blessing from God.
The primary purpose of the Church/Assembly is the "Edification" of the Saints. Therefore teaching is front and center with Worship. A true God called Man/Pastor will be an able teacher. In addition we are commanded to keep the Lord's Day.
While it is true that most so called Churches that I have attended over the years, don't teach enough Scripture - that is teaching so that Scripture interprets Scripture, to choke a gnat. They are full of Humanism. Cute little stories that don't teach a hill of beans.
There have always been problems in the assemblies on Earth, just read the first three chapters of Revelation. (These seven assemblies represent the assemblies of every age).
Fellowship is great but fellowship without leadership can be disastrous. Fellowship without an elder/teacher to guide, can lead to error in Doctrine and groups of differing opinion.
The largest problem I see today, is severe Doctrinal error, if not down right Heresy. Each true believer must decide how they are going to limit their fellowship. If we compromise Truth then we can have more fellowship with men but risk losing fellowship with God. Or we can stand firmly for Truth and lose fellowship with men but gain blessing from God.
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I believe Matthew 24:26 is a future event unfulfilled, when the antichrist has taken his seat, the warning is against the deception seen in Rev 13:13-14 below
Matthew 24:26 (Future) Unfulfilled
Matthew 24:24-26KJV
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Matthew 24:26 (Future) Unfulfilled
Matthew 24:24-26KJV
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
The Altar and Tabernacle are the holiest places and the inner rooms of the catholic temple. They are claiming that Christ is there. Believe it not!!! Matthew 24:26 -- FULFILLED --
Altar Lamp
In many Christian churches there is an altar lamp, also known as a chancel lamp, which is found in the chancel (sanctuary), either hanging or fixed. In Anglican, Old Catholic and Roman Catholic churches, the chancel lamp burns before a tabernacle or ambry to demonstrate the belief that Christ is present there through His Real Presence
With influence from Judaism in the Old Testament, God told Moses that a lamp filled with the pure oil should perpetually burn in the Tabernacle (Ex 27:20-21). This is the precedent for the custom in the Anglican Church and Catholic Church of burning a candle (at all times) before the tabernacle – the house where the Eucharistic Body of Christ is reserved under lock and key.
Tabernacle
A tabernacle is a fixed, locked box in which, in some Christian churches, the Eucharist is "reserved" (stored). A less obvious container for the same purpose, set into a wall, is called an aumbry. The tabernacle should be securely fixed to the altar or (shelf), but away from the wall so that the conopaeum (a veil used to cover it when it contains the blessed sacrament) can completely surround it. The veil may be white or varying in liturgical colour.
the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist
is the doctrine that Jesus is present in the Eucharist, not merely symbolically or metaphorically.[1]
Catholics give adoration to Christ, whom they believe to be really present, in body and blood, soul and divinity, in sacramental bread whose reality has been changed into that of his body.
Its purpose is to allow the worshipper to engage his whole person in acknowledging the presence of and to honor Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. It is customary to genuflect whenever one comes into or leaves the presence of the Blessed Sacrament reserved in the Tabernacle.
Matthew 24:26 -- FULFILLED --
Altar Lamp
In many Christian churches there is an altar lamp, also known as a chancel lamp, which is found in the chancel (sanctuary), either hanging or fixed. In Anglican, Old Catholic and Roman Catholic churches, the chancel lamp burns before a tabernacle or ambry to demonstrate the belief that Christ is present there through His Real Presence
With influence from Judaism in the Old Testament, God told Moses that a lamp filled with the pure oil should perpetually burn in the Tabernacle (Ex 27:20-21). This is the precedent for the custom in the Anglican Church and Catholic Church of burning a candle (at all times) before the tabernacle – the house where the Eucharistic Body of Christ is reserved under lock and key.
Tabernacle
A tabernacle is a fixed, locked box in which, in some Christian churches, the Eucharist is "reserved" (stored). A less obvious container for the same purpose, set into a wall, is called an aumbry. The tabernacle should be securely fixed to the altar or (shelf), but away from the wall so that the conopaeum (a veil used to cover it when it contains the blessed sacrament) can completely surround it. The veil may be white or varying in liturgical colour.
the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist
is the doctrine that Jesus is present in the Eucharist, not merely symbolically or metaphorically.[1]
Catholics give adoration to Christ, whom they believe to be really present, in body and blood, soul and divinity, in sacramental bread whose reality has been changed into that of his body.
Its purpose is to allow the worshipper to engage his whole person in acknowledging the presence of and to honor Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. It is customary to genuflect whenever one comes into or leaves the presence of the Blessed Sacrament reserved in the Tabernacle.
Matthew 24:26 -- FULFILLED --
Matthew 24:26 English Standard Version
So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. -- FULFILLED --
For thousands of followers, Vissarion is no less than the second coming of Jesus of Nazareth, reincarnated 2000 years after his crucifixion, deep in the Siberian wilderness.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/vissarion-siberias-second-coming-of-christ-20090831-f4oe.html
I disagree, the future Antichrist will take his place in Jerusalem, the deception will be as a false Messiah to the Jews and world, Rome dosent fit the ticket
A Literal Human Man, (The Beast) with literal bodies laying in a street in (Jerusalem) not Rome
Revelation 11:7-8KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
A Literal Human Man, (The Beast) with literal bodies laying in a street in (Jerusalem) not Rome
Revelation 11:7-8KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.