A Divided Church?

Scribe · Nov 23, 2020

Not all seminaries are liberal. Automobiles are not in the bible but we use them anyway. Bible dictionaries aren't in the bible but there is nothing wrong with using one to help you learn or shorten your learning curve.

I agree with the idea of avoiding liberal bible schools and also avoiding authors who do not believe in the inspiration of the word but I also believe in avoiding those who are dumber than a box of rocks and constantly making mistakes in interpretation because they don't reference good bible helps. They would do well to go to bible school because most of what they say is wrong. Some people just really need more help.

Anyone who dismisses ALL bible college as a work of man or as something antithetical to true Spirit inspiration and empowerment for ministry has not investigated the real world of bible colleges today. There are deeply spiritual bible colleges that produce theologians with excellent gifts for teaching the body of Christ and I am enjoying their books everyday.

I would rather read from an author who has a Doctorates in Theology from a bible believing school AND ALSO the empowerment of the Holy Spirit than from a moron who constantly makes mistakes in interpretations based on lack of fundamental knowledge he should have gained from High School English but he flunked out and never tried to learn it again after maturing as an adult and getting saved.

Then they launch out into their preaching ministry and preach sermons on "quit ye like men" and explain how we need to quit thinking we are just men because we now have the Holy Spirit living in us and that makes us super men. Yes I have heard such a sermon from someone who said bible colleges were not in the bible and they did not need them.

Only uneducated people use that argument. I agree that you do not have to go to bible college to preach, but at least read the same books they use in the spiritual bible believing bible colleges at your own pace and self educate yourself. We owe it to those who take their own time to listen to us.

mustaphadrink · Nov 24, 2020

awelight said:

And who set you up as judge and jury apart from yourself?

Once again you are dancing all over the place making pronouncements about this and that as thou8gh we the great unwashed have no idea what we are talking about.

Thank you for letting us know that you despise learning outside of yourself. We needed to know that. As you have no qualifications or learning that give you the edge over anyone else, I will go with the great men who I have had the privilege of sitting at the feet of. Fortunately, I am not so arrogant to say they are all two-bit nothings and heretics.

I would not be so arrogant to claim that someone who was before he died a Ph.D. and a Professor in Greek and Hebrew linguistics at Oxford University at the age of 25, to be nothing more than a heretic. A man who has written numerous books that are used all around the world as a basis for new converts and churches to grow. A man who when his wife died, married a woman who had adopted eight Jewish orphans and treated them as his own. A man who was used by God to bring deliverance to those in bondage to various problems.

I and the church I attended in the UK fellowshipped around the truth of God's word that he brought to us every time he visited us. Every time he visited we grew a bit more such was the depth of his teaching. But of course, I do realize in your eyes he was a heretic so I can dismiss everything he said and did and ignore all the miracles that happened through his ministry and all the churches worldwide that did and do still appreciate the depth of teaching that he has passed onto them so that they can grow in the faith.

And I will have to let the churches know who are so poor that they cannot afford to buy any teaching material to forget what he offers FREE to them because it is all heretical and that they should get their teaching material from awelight who has no training or qualifications to teach as he can guarantee he is right and everyone else is wrong.

But I hope you won't mind me warning them that your teaching is very shallow as you pick verses from here and there and then say "there you are. I told you so" and that you are not convinced about what you say because you have to put things in bold to make sure the people listening do not get waylaid by thoughts other than what you say.

And finally, I won't go on because you have made it very clear you specialise in going on so we are not in two minds who is the expert with no training and no credentials around here.

By the way, you need to subscribe to a grammar and spell checker because your posts are full of mistakes.

awelight · Nov 25, 2020

mustaphadrink said:

The only reply I can give to all that you have typed here and in the previous post, is just how amazed I am sometimes, at how ugly people can be who call themselves Christians. Your whole post is a personal attack. So be it. You read much into what I had to say. I don't think everyone is a heretic and cannot imagine why you got so protective of this man you are talking about. I certainly don't know him and therefore can make no judgement about him. It sounds like he did a lot of wonderful things for others. I'm happy for you.

As to your statements about other men's works, I read them, many, many of them but I have found the old writers to be more trustworthy, when it comes down to sound Doctrine. Men like Stephen Charnock, Albert Barnes, John Gill, Arthur W. Pink, George Peters, Thayer and W.E. Best, to name a few. Have you read any of these men works? But, irregardless of the man, his views must be checked against the Scriptures. I take no man's work at face value and refuse no man's word at face value either.

My concern is always with the TRUTH of God. That TRUTH comes from Holy Scripture and not necessarily from any man, unless what he says, stands the test of Scripture and Scripture alone. As I have said before, I do not have the last word on any Biblical Doctrine but I do have a word. If one is opposed to my words, then show me in the Bible where my conclusions are wrong. Humanism and peoples opinions are useless. If you had a particular problem with one of my conclusions, ask me for the proof texts but please one subject at a time. But if you cannot back up your opinions with Scripture, you had better rethink what you believe. We will all be judged by the words of Holy Writ, whether it be for reward or condemnation.

awelight · Nov 25, 2020

Scribe said:

You and I really don't differ that much on this subject. I agree that not all seminaries are liberal but many are and are teaching their students about thinking subjectively, while denying the reality of objective truth. This leads to the idea that the Bible "contains" the truth but is not "objective" truth revealed.

Seminaries have there place in the world, my pastor came from a Southern Baptist background, until he split with them over the Doctrine of Impeccability. He has gone onto be with the Lord, many years ago. However this does not change the Scriptural truth, in regards to so called higher learning institutions, that pump out ministers like a well oiled machine. How many of these men, are even truly God called?

The only time Scripture talks about a place of higher learning, was when Paul was speaking about himself and this was not used in a good way but was very negative. Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; He was an educated man in Judaism, a Pharisee of the Pharisees and a member of the highest council, the Sanhedrin but this was all before he was called out by the Lord. Nothing but a Religionist. As such, this was worldly education in religion and not in the truth of God's Word. When he was called out by the Lord, he got his education alone with the Lord and didn't even seek out the Apostles in Jerusalem. Gal 1:16,17 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus. As local assemblies formed, in different areas, God made sure that there was one that would arise to eldership and preach the Word.

Can seminaries be a help...perhaps...but something like them is never mentioned in the Scriptures. When we as man, say something is okay in the realm of spiritual matters, even though not mentioned or given authorization in Scripture, I submit we maybe on dangerous ground. You gave the example, that automobiles are not mentioned in Scripture but we use them. However, an automobile is a machine that has nothing to do with Worship, Truth or Spiritual things. The man, that will lead Christ's local aspect of the assembly, is not a car. He is a man of God. The man of God should follow all Biblical principles and reject those that are not in the Bible.

I am not trying to win you over to my side are even convince you of any one thing. That is between you and God; just as it is for me. What I hold true from Scripture and am convicted of, I hold to tenaciously. All I'm saying here is, do you see my point? Do you see where I am coming from.?

Nehemiah6 · Nov 25, 2020

Scribe said:

No one can deny that other the the rabbinic schools (which led to the rejection of Christ and the establishment of the Talmud) Christian churches did not have any interest in theological seminaries. Paul was the only apostle who had gone to one of these schools, but upon his conversion, he rejected his Pharisaism.

The rabbinic schools which existed at the time of Christ were also antithetical to Christ and His apostles. They despised those unlearned men from Galilee. But Jesus never promoted the idea that people would go into such schools to be indoctrinated and come out with man-made doctrines.

Had it not been for the Scholasticism of the Catholic Church, (which was continued by the Protestant churches), there would be no such thing as bible colleges today. And we can see from the radical Marxism and Communism in schools such as Harvard and Yale (which were originally established as Protestant bible schools) that institutions of learning have actually destroyed the faith of young people.

"Many of America’s and England’s oldest universities were established as religious institutions, but now they advocate evolutionary thinking. What happened? "
https://answersingenesis.org/christianity/harvard-yale-princeton-oxford-once-christian/

The New Testament pattern (given to the apostles by the Holy Spirit Himself) was that (1) God would endow men (not women) within each church with the spiritual gifts of evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These men would also be elders within the presbytery of the church itself (not an outside authority). And those men were to teach faithful men within the church, who would likewise teach others.

The New Testament pattern was quickly abandoned, and single bishops began to rule over groups of churches. This began the system of a clerical hierarchy, which would result in the clergy vs the laity. Many believe that the Nicolaitans began this system early on. In any event the Catholic Church installed a hierarchy of clerics and also introduced Scholasticism. And now we have the evangelical and fundamentalist churches stuck in this mode.

Ever since the 19th century, seminaries have been the hotbeds of liberal theology and outright unbelief. That led to the Fundamentalist Movement in the early 20th century. But many fundamentalists became Neo-Evangelical or Neo-Orthodox, and now there are almost no bible schools which can be trusted. Add to that the rise of corrupt modern bible translations, and what you have is a very serious problem.

Bob Jones University is a good example of the decline of fundamentalist bible schools: This is Not Your Father’s Bob Jones University, A Continuation (ReDUX)

"Under Dr. Steve Pettit’s leadership, Bob Jones University continues to follow a path of ecclesiastical compromise, embracing the spirit of Neo-evangelicalism, and rejecting its historical legacy as a Bible fundamental, separatist institution."

Scribe · Nov 25, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

I agree that one does not have to go to Bible College to preach. My fellowship has a method for training ministers who are called to preach by mentoring, internship, and also textbooks that will help educate them in the basics without enrolling in bible college or needing a degree.

No one needs to be forced to read books from unregenerate non bible believing theologians.
You don't have to wade through the mud to learn how to run.

Self education might be better since one will read text books in their entirety and not just memorize a study guide for a test.

However, I cannot tolerate boasting of ignorance that is too easy to remedy.

Constant mistakes in hermeneutics that no first year bible student would make is worse than going to bible college so if you have difficulty understanding on your own by all means go to bible school because preaching bad hermeneutics because you mean well, is NOT AN OPTION.

awelight · Nov 25, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

No one can deny that other the the rabbinic schools (which led to the rejection of Christ and the establishment of the Talmud) Christian churches did not have any interest in theological seminaries. Paul was the only apostle who had gone to one of these schools, but upon his conversion, he rejected his Pharisaism.

The rabbinic schools which existed at the time of Christ were also antithetical to Christ and His apostles. They despised those unlearned men from Galilee. But Jesus never promoted the idea that people would go into such schools to be indoctrinated and come out with man-made doctrines.

Had it not been for the Scholasticism of the Catholic Church, (which was continued by the Protestant churches), there would be no such thing as bible colleges today. And we can see from the radical Marxism and Communism in schools such as Harvard and Yale (which were originally established as Protestant bible schools) that institutions of learning have actually destroyed the faith of young people.

"Many of America’s and England’s oldest universities were established as religious institutions, but now they advocate evolutionary thinking. What happened? "
https://answersingenesis.org/christianity/harvard-yale-princeton-oxford-once-christian/

The New Testament pattern (given to the apostles by the Holy Spirit Himself) was that (1) God would endow men (not women) within each church with the spiritual gifts of evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These men would also be elders within the presbytery of the church itself (not an outside authority). And those men were to teach faithful men within the church, who would likewise teach others.

The New Testament pattern was quickly abandoned, and single bishops began to rule over groups of churches. This began the system of a clerical hierarchy, which would result in the clergy vs the laity. Many believe that the Nicolaitans began this system early on. In any event the Catholic Church installed a hierarchy of clerics and also introduced Scholasticism. And now we have the evangelical and fundamentalist churches stuck in this mode.

Ever since the 19th century, seminaries have been the hotbeds of liberal theology and outright unbelief. That led to the Fundamentalist Movement in the early 20th century. But many fundamentalists became Neo-Evangelical or Neo-Orthodox, and now there are almost no bible schools which can be trusted. Add to that the rise of corrupt modern bible translations, and what you have is a very serious problem.

Bob Jones University is a good example of the decline of fundamentalist bible schools: This is Not Your Father’s Bob Jones University, A Continuation (ReDUX)

"Under Dr. Steve Pettit’s leadership, Bob Jones University continues to follow a path of ecclesiastical compromise, embracing the spirit of Neo-evangelicalism, and rejecting its historical legacy as a Bible fundamental, separatist institution."

Your post is a beautiful thing to read. Well thought out and put together. I couldn't agree with you more and am so glad that you have proved that others see the potential dangers. As we approach the final days with apostasy and lawlessness growing ever more prevalent, let us be ever more vigilant. Compromise over Doctrinal differences, is the earmark of The World Church. Thankfully, the Universal Assembly, that Christ is building, (His body), will not compromise (knowingly), and will be kept from this awful trend.

awelight · Nov 25, 2020

Scribe said:

Not to start an argument here but you do realize, that you have adopted about 80% of the points I made in my original post. So apparently, we were not as far apart as you originally made out.

I particularly loved your opening paragraph. That practice, as you outlined in your assembly, is the Biblical concept for proper teaching and aid to those who believe they have been called to preach. This basic idea, is the point I was making in my original post. Basically, the local aspect of the true assembly, is led by a man called of God, edifies the Saints from Scripture study and aids those who believe they are called to preach. The local assembly, according to Scripture, is an autonomous assembly and answers to no organized religious group or denominational hierarchy. It is made up of likeminded individuals and is answerable only to the Lord. The history and operation of Denominations vs. the local assemblies was put forth very well by Nehemiah6.

Take care and be safe.

Scribe · Nov 25, 2020

awelight said:

I agree with you both. God is not calling his preachers to trust in bible schools to give them the empowerment of the Spirit that only Pentecost can provide. Then as we go and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit we do not have to be theologians to do it.

mustaphadrink · Nov 26, 2020

awelight said:

Funny how people who have such a high and mighty opinion of themselves usually fall back on such bland claims as "My concern is always with the truth of God" as though everyone else has no concern for the truth.

And claims like the truth tht comes from scripture and not from any man and then goes on to list the writers that he reads. If it is OK for you to read writers why is it wrong for us to read writers? Hypocrital to say the least.

And they claim, they do not have the last word but anyone who dares to say something they don't agree with and you will get the last word quicksmart.

And then they get on their high horse and demand scripture to prove them wrong which has been done over and over again already.

And then we get asked to ask for proof texts whch is the worst form of exegesis..

And finally we only have opinions, not scripture or truth.

All in all I would have to say that is arrogance personafied. Try a bit of humility next time and then you might get a hearing.

ForestGreenCook · Nov 26, 2020

mustaphadrink said:

Luke 10:21, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and hast revealed them unto babes, even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight. Verse 22, All things are delivered to me of my Father, and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father, and who the Father is, but the Son, AND HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.

1 Cor 1:27, But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty, Verse 28, And base things of the world, and things which are despised ( your despising of Awelight's poor spelling), hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are, that no flesh should glory in his presence.

Yes! The Holy Ghost also reveals truths to those that are poor speller's. I have also been corrected on my spelling by some on this forum.

Acts 4:13, Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled.

ForestGreenCook · Nov 26, 2020

awelight said:

The only reply I can give to all that you have typed here and in the previous post, is just how amazed I am sometimes, at how ugly people can be who call themselves Christians. Your whole post is a personal attack. So be it. You read much into what I had to say. I don't think everyone is a heretic and cannot imagine why you got so protective of this man you are talking about. I certainly don't know him and therefore can make no judgement about him. It sounds like he did a lot of wonderful things for others. I'm happy for you.

As to your statements about other men's works, I read them, many, many of them but I have found the old writers to be more trustworthy, when it comes down to sound Doctrine. Men like Stephen Charnock, Albert Barnes, John Gill, Arthur W. Pink, George Peters, Thayer and W.E. Best, to name a few. Have you read any of these men works? But, irregardless of the man, his views must be checked against the Scriptures. I take no man's work at face value and refuse no man's word at face value either.

My concern is always with the TRUTH of God. That TRUTH comes from Holy Scripture and not necessarily from any man, unless what he says, stands the test of Scripture and Scripture alone. As I have said before, I do not have the last word on any Biblical Doctrine but I do have a word. If one is opposed to my words, then show me in the Bible where my conclusions are wrong. Humanism and peoples opinions are useless. If you had a particular problem with one of my conclusions, ask me for the proof texts but please one subject at a time. But if you cannot back up your opinions with Scripture, you had better rethink what you believe. We will all be judged by the words of Holy Writ, whether it be for reward or condemnation.

Amen to you brother, keep up the good fight. I stand upon the fact that scripture proves scripture, and they are my only source of gleaning the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught. I have been criticised many times for mu poor spelling by those on this forum, but it does not offend me.

mustaphadrink · Nov 28, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

Seven times a day I will praise you for your righteous laws. Great peace have they who love your law, and nothing can make them stumble. I wait for your salvation, O Lord, and I follow your commands. I obey your statutes, for I love them greatly. I obey your precepts and your statutes, for all my ways are known to you. Psalm 119 v 164-168.

awelight · Nov 28, 2020

ForestGreenCook said:

Thank you for your kind words. You can't go wrong if your source is Scripture and Scripture alone. The Holy Spirit will help bring the things one has studied to their mind and assist all who study to show themselves approved.

Unfortunately, too many have started out with the works of other men rather than rely on Scripture or believed the Bible notes by commentators, as if their words were as inspired as the original manuscripts. If one does not have a good working knowledge of God's Holy Word, then how could they know if a man speaks the Truth or not? So sad.

My advice to any young convert, would be to study God's Word first. Use a good Bible translation, like the KJV, NASB or RSV and stay away from these more recent translations, like the Good News Bible or One New Man Bible, just to mention a few. Most new translation Bibles, (Those translations done after the 1960's), do not follow the Greek text closely at all. They are more interpretation than translation and do not indicate to the reader what was added by the translators. I classify these types of translations as falling under this warning: Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto His words, Lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar... as well as: Rev 22:18 I testify unto every man that is hearing the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book:

Thanks again and may God go with you.

awelight · Nov 28, 2020

I wasn't going to reply to this but so much is telling in this post: - click to expand-

mustaphadrink said:

Funny how people who have such a high and mighty opinion of themselves usually fall back on such bland claims as "My concern is always with the truth of God" as though everyone else has no concern for the truth.

Such "bland claims"? How could anyone who says they love the TRUTH of God, say such a thing?

And claims like the truth tht comes from scripture and not from any man and then goes on to list the writers that he reads. If it is OK for you to read writers why is it wrong for us to read writers? Hypocrital to say the least.

I listed books of men in response to your previous post. It is not hypocritical. I have always maintained Holy Scripture over the works of men. After God called me out, I started with Holy Writ and not the works of men and this has always been my point. You need knowledge of Scripture in order to check out what men say. (By the way, you misspelled "that" and "Hypocritical" LOL - I would never point these things out usually but you do love making an issue out of them with others.)

And they claim, they do not have the last word but anyone who dares to say something they don't agree with and you will get the last word quicksmart. <--- Whatever that word is?

And then they get on their high horse and demand scripture to prove them wrong which has been done over and over again already.

By whom and when do you think this has happened? Many of us are still waiting for proof texts that truly show we are wrong. I said, truly wrong not just wrong in your own mind. If indeed you could show me this, then I would reconsider my stand.

And then we get asked to ask for proof texts whch is the worst form of exegesis..

Don't follow this statement at all. Since exegesis is defined as: "exegesis is the actual interpretation of the Bible by drawing the meaning out of the Biblical text.", how could providing a proof text be the "worst form of exegesis"? Perhaps you were thinking of Hermeneutics?

And finally we only have opinions, not scripture or truth.

You may only have opinions, however some believers have grown to have convictions and beliefs. If you are not convicted of certain Doctrinal Truths and/or the rights and wrongs of certain principles, then you have experienced little growth. Those things I am convicted of, I speak boldly and unapologetically of.

All in all I would have to say that is arrogance personafied. Try a bit of humility next time and then you might get a hearing.

You confuse ones convictions, for what you see as arrogance.

I did not enjoy this exercise but felt this post was needed. May we now return to discussing Scripture and Glorifying our Lord in Truth?
If you feel the need to further respond to the above, then feel free but I will not continue down this path.

mustaphadrink · Nov 30, 2020

awelight said:

I wasn't going to reply to this but so much is telling in this post: - click to expand-

You confuse ones convictions, for what you see as arrogance.

I did not enjoy this exercise but felt this post was needed. May we now return to discussing Scripture and Glorifying our Lord in Truth?
If you feel the need to further respond to the above, then feel free but I will not continue down this path.

That will be the day.

peldom10 · Dec 3, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

It is accepted scripture that it is years.

What language do you apply to conclude the 70th week of Daniel is days and not 7 years?
Scripture teaches that there will be 3 1/2 years in the first half of the trib period and 3 1/2 years in the 2nd half. ..for a total of 7 years.

peldom10 · Dec 3, 2020

awelight said:

I sure hope you are correct. It is appalling to see the .....new age religion group....... who seems hell bent to alter, bend, change or otherwise modify the intended interpretation of God's word. No less that three bible books warns against such. It must be resisted all all costs. There is not such thing as politically correct concerning God's word.
We are reminded of scripture....in the end times there will be great delusions......they are here and growing rapidly.

Truth7t7 · Dec 3, 2020

peldom10 said:

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four hundred and ninety years), simple

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weekswere fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal future weeks or 490 days.

When the call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the Antichrist who stops the building.

The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation has started.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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A Divided Church?

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