A Divided Church?
- Thread starter WalkerAllan
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
In the Westminster Confession of Faith (WC) the WC chapter XXXI item III. infers that councils like the Council of Nicea has some authority These are lies. The WC contains many lies. All of these councils and confessions and creeds are contractual traps set by Satan – every single one of them.
The WC is no less evil then the Council of Trent, which is no more evil then the Council of Nicea.
They all have the same spiritual author.
The WC is no less evil then the Council of Trent, which is no more evil then the Council of Nicea.
They all have the same spiritual author.
Yes, the invisible church is divided into numerous denominational assemblies, but the visible church has been functioning sense the days of the apostles, as a small group, known as the little flock, the remnant, Rev 12:17 (the woman being the bride of Christ)the few, the 144,000 that has stayed faithful to their husband, Jesus, and their only practice of worship is singing (acappella), praying, and preaching, and practicing comunion, using unleavened bread, fermented wine, and washing each others feet. This is the church that the gates of hell will not prevail against.
Reference scriptures, Ezk10, Matt 7, Luke 12:32 (The kingdom is Christ's church), Zeph 3:12-13,
Reference scriptures, Ezk10, Matt 7, Luke 12:32 (The kingdom is Christ's church), Zeph 3:12-13,
This is what I am seeing clearly in Revelation about the State Church.
In Late Antiquity and Middle Ages
State = 1st Beast (one example of many would be Byzantine Emperor)
Church = 2nd Beast (one example of many would be Byzantine Papacy)
Today
State = Beast (beast is not b/c we have in USA separation of powers and separation of church and state. Even in Europe where they have state sanctioned churches they have democratic form of government so even there the beast is not)
Church = False Prophet (still remains today, notice how there is no time constraint on false prophet or 2nd Beast in Revelation)
In Late Antiquity and Middle Ages
State = 1st Beast (one example of many would be Byzantine Emperor)
Church = 2nd Beast (one example of many would be Byzantine Papacy)
Today
State = Beast (beast is not b/c we have in USA separation of powers and separation of church and state. Even in Europe where they have state sanctioned churches they have democratic form of government so even there the beast is not)
Church = False Prophet (still remains today, notice how there is no time constraint on false prophet or 2nd Beast in Revelation)
I understand what you believe, thanks for the response.
The Beast will have a literal human body, that will be thrown into the flame, Jesus Christ destroys this human body at the (Future) brightness of his coming
Neb, you cant symbolize (The Beast) as being the State, it's a literal interpretation, a human man (His) and a literal human body.
You believe the false prophet to be the Church?
Biblical symbolism relating to the Church is always (Feminine) She, Her, the masculine dont cut it, it would have been the false prophetess if it was the Church?
Daniel 7:11KJV
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
2 Thessalonians 2:8KJV
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The Beast will have a literal human body, that will be thrown into the flame, Jesus Christ destroys this human body at the (Future) brightness of his coming
Neb, you cant symbolize (The Beast) as being the State, it's a literal interpretation, a human man (His) and a literal human body.
You believe the false prophet to be the Church?
Biblical symbolism relating to the Church is always (Feminine) She, Her, the masculine dont cut it, it would have been the false prophetess if it was the Church?
Daniel 7:11KJV
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
2 Thessalonians 2:8KJV
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Yes. But even here there are priorities.
To my mind, high on the list are statements such as “…for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.” (Philippians 2:12-13, NIV).
God is working in us today to transform us into the image of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18). The degree to which we understand and cooperate with what he is doing in us today will have consequences both for our lives tomorrow and for eternity.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
-
1
- Show all
S
I don't think it is as simple as that. Each denomination has it's own history. There are different reasons why churches had to separate from parent groups like the reformation and Catholicism. There were some things we were not going to be able agree to disagree about because they were evil or not compatible with sound doctrine.
Same today. There are some denominations that get along with other denominations and consider one another all the same Church all going to heaven together but because of unresolved differences of hermeneutics on things like speaking in tongues they decide to meet separately rather than vilify one another.
It is a peaceful and godly resolution because constantly striving about doctrinal differences is not pleasing to God.
There is no desire to control people or enforce ecclesiastical rulership over laity in many of these churches, they simply want to be in agreement and accomplish the great commission together by pooling their resources. One local assembly can only do so much but when thousands contribute to a mission they can turn the world upside down and plant churches worldwide.
Many wise christians want to fellowship with a larger group of christians world wide who are doing the best they can at interpreting scriptures the correct way and so they find that denomination or loose association of churches that they think are doing the best job of interpreting scriptures correctly. There is no evil intention in many of these separate church organizations, it is simply a matter of hermeneutics.
There will always be those who are attempting to gain a following and lord it over a flock and so they will separate and start their own little dynasties and call them nondenominational and yet they are worse than the denomination they departed from as to control over people. BEWARE of nondenominational church that have no voluntary accountability with the rest of the church and no leadership higher than the pastor. These are abundant today and very popular and one of the reasons is that they claim to be closer to the real church than "man made" denominations, (when the pastor who started the church did the same thing the denominations do when they plant a church) and they pass off their office of pastor to their sons which usually have no gift to preach or call from God but are just inheriting the dynasty. No one can question the pastor without being accused of rebellion. They claim to be a purer church than a denomination and yet they are under the totalitarian rule of one man. How is that better than a denomination that has many accountability and where pastors have certain requirements like "being called by God" and an gift of ministry evident in their lives and not simply because they are the son of the pastor. Nepotism is not God's method.
Same today. There are some denominations that get along with other denominations and consider one another all the same Church all going to heaven together but because of unresolved differences of hermeneutics on things like speaking in tongues they decide to meet separately rather than vilify one another.
It is a peaceful and godly resolution because constantly striving about doctrinal differences is not pleasing to God.
There is no desire to control people or enforce ecclesiastical rulership over laity in many of these churches, they simply want to be in agreement and accomplish the great commission together by pooling their resources. One local assembly can only do so much but when thousands contribute to a mission they can turn the world upside down and plant churches worldwide.
Many wise christians want to fellowship with a larger group of christians world wide who are doing the best they can at interpreting scriptures the correct way and so they find that denomination or loose association of churches that they think are doing the best job of interpreting scriptures correctly. There is no evil intention in many of these separate church organizations, it is simply a matter of hermeneutics.
There will always be those who are attempting to gain a following and lord it over a flock and so they will separate and start their own little dynasties and call them nondenominational and yet they are worse than the denomination they departed from as to control over people. BEWARE of nondenominational church that have no voluntary accountability with the rest of the church and no leadership higher than the pastor. These are abundant today and very popular and one of the reasons is that they claim to be closer to the real church than "man made" denominations, (when the pastor who started the church did the same thing the denominations do when they plant a church) and they pass off their office of pastor to their sons which usually have no gift to preach or call from God but are just inheriting the dynasty. No one can question the pastor without being accused of rebellion. They claim to be a purer church than a denomination and yet they are under the totalitarian rule of one man. How is that better than a denomination that has many accountability and where pastors have certain requirements like "being called by God" and an gift of ministry evident in their lives and not simply because they are the son of the pastor. Nepotism is not God's method.
S
We will all have our own opinions about that which is why there will always be a need for different organizations based upon which one you feel is doing the best job of hermeneutics and of following the biblical pattern of faith and practice.
I don't have a problem with different church organizations. I believe the Assemblies of God is the closest to my interpretation of scripture both in doctrine and in faith and practice but I will not argue with people about it. Each person has to find that organization that matches their own illumination as to what is biblical and be lead by the Holy Spirit and then roll up their sleeves and get busy with the great commission.
There are many positive things about having different church organizations to make it easy for different people of different levels of maturity to find that fellowship that they feel God wants them to join.
So I do agree with the OP about the different groups being the plan of God all along. We see through a glass darkly and one day we will know if full in heaven or in the eternal kingdom of God and we will all have graduated to see things clearly. We will not argue about anything then so it is a good idea to not argue about anything now.
If that means fellowshipping in different organized groups of churches to avoid arguing so be it.
I don't have a problem with different church organizations. I believe the Assemblies of God is the closest to my interpretation of scripture both in doctrine and in faith and practice but I will not argue with people about it. Each person has to find that organization that matches their own illumination as to what is biblical and be lead by the Holy Spirit and then roll up their sleeves and get busy with the great commission.
There are many positive things about having different church organizations to make it easy for different people of different levels of maturity to find that fellowship that they feel God wants them to join.
So I do agree with the OP about the different groups being the plan of God all along. We see through a glass darkly and one day we will know if full in heaven or in the eternal kingdom of God and we will all have graduated to see things clearly. We will not argue about anything then so it is a good idea to not argue about anything now.
If that means fellowshipping in different organized groups of churches to avoid arguing so be it.
I most certainly do respect many fine Christian people in the major denominations. I was a pastor in the AOG many years ago and have retained some of the connections I had in that environment.
I also had some experience in what you term “nondenominational” groups. Our experience back there (the 1970s) was not good, but I have had contact on the internet in recent times with some groups, such as Home Church and Simple Church. I found that most stimulating and there were a lot of fine Christians among them although there were some unique problems in that setup.
However, none of this has persuaded me to sweep under the carpet some of the fundamental problems of the church institutions, as we know them today.
To my mind one of the major problems with institutional churches is that they, to a large extent, inhibit the expression of the true spiritual worth of the lay people. While this is more pronounced in some than others it exists either consciously or unconsciously in all.
Each of us is meant to be involved in the building up of the Body of Christ.
From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. (Ephesians 4:16, NIV)
We are empowered with the ability and the authority to carry out the role (small or large) that God has allocated to us. He does this by means of the “Gifts of the Spirit.”
These spiritual gifts are imparted to each ones of us at the time of the new birth. They remain with us whether or not they are recognised or utilised.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. (1 Corinthians 12:7, NIV)
We wrestle not against flesh and blood. It is not that degree in theology that provides us with the spiritual authority that is required to do this work.
This hardly scratches the surface, but I will leave it there.
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
Last edited:
-
2
-
1
- Show all
His can refer to a man.
His can also refer to Satan.
His can also refer to any demonic being.
Furthermore a number of translations of Rev 19:20 refer to the Beast and False Prophet as "him". While some translations refer to the beast as "it".
It does not refer to a man
It would refer to a kingdom
It would refer to an attack strategy or some type of concept that the demonic use.
You yourself sight Daniel 7:11KJV, which says the horn spake. But here you are are biblically symbolized the horn to be a man. How dare you! And if the horn is a man, then what is the beast that the horn is attacked to? hmmm?
His can also refer to Satan.
His can also refer to any demonic being.
Furthermore a number of translations of Rev 19:20 refer to the Beast and False Prophet as "him". While some translations refer to the beast as "it".
It does not refer to a man
It would refer to a kingdom
It would refer to an attack strategy or some type of concept that the demonic use.
You yourself sight Daniel 7:11KJV, which says the horn spake. But here you are are biblically symbolized the horn to be a man. How dare you! And if the horn is a man, then what is the beast that the horn is attacked to? hmmm?
The more I hear from you I think you are a saved person. But then we still have to negotiate through this miserable world.
1) the church we were saved is flawed, even more then we realize.
2) everything is top down meaning that we are taught from the pastor, we are taught from the biblestudy and then we go home and want to learn more so we go online or buy books or what have you and again the teaching we get is top-down. The problem with top down you can see is that it is corrupting. The biggest top down is the Roman Church and it is most corrupt.
So we the little guy who got saved is getting contantly bombarded top down with amix of true and false teachings.
USA we have been persecution free pretty much for 200+ years. Thus the main level of attack is from false teachers and false teachings that have percolated into the church.
Where they have succeeded the most is in attacking eschotology. Eschatology is part of the armor of god. Once we are saved it is part of the armor for use to stand against the evil schemes of the devil which at this time is false teachings.
The false teachers here in America have take 80% of Revelation from us telling us that it is "still to the future". They ahve taken other verses like Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2 from us as well saying it too "is still to the future".
The false teachers have succeeded in taking away like 1/4 of the New Testament from use. They have succeeded in taking some of the armor from us.
You Have to throw out EVERYTHING you ahve been taught top down on eschatology. EVERYTHING. You have to come at it from a new perspective. You have two advocates: 1 the WORD, 2 the Holy Spirit. and your have a third source at your finger tips. 3) Historical Record.
You have Church History and Ancient History. This is what is also needed to make sense of the biblical prophesies.
Test everything.
1) the church we were saved is flawed, even more then we realize.
2) everything is top down meaning that we are taught from the pastor, we are taught from the biblestudy and then we go home and want to learn more so we go online or buy books or what have you and again the teaching we get is top-down. The problem with top down you can see is that it is corrupting. The biggest top down is the Roman Church and it is most corrupt.
So we the little guy who got saved is getting contantly bombarded top down with amix of true and false teachings.
USA we have been persecution free pretty much for 200+ years. Thus the main level of attack is from false teachers and false teachings that have percolated into the church.
Where they have succeeded the most is in attacking eschotology. Eschatology is part of the armor of god. Once we are saved it is part of the armor for use to stand against the evil schemes of the devil which at this time is false teachings.
The false teachers here in America have take 80% of Revelation from us telling us that it is "still to the future". They ahve taken other verses like Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2 from us as well saying it too "is still to the future".
The false teachers have succeeded in taking away like 1/4 of the New Testament from use. They have succeeded in taking some of the armor from us.
You Have to throw out EVERYTHING you ahve been taught top down on eschatology. EVERYTHING. You have to come at it from a new perspective. You have two advocates: 1 the WORD, 2 the Holy Spirit. and your have a third source at your finger tips. 3) Historical Record.
You have Church History and Ancient History. This is what is also needed to make sense of the biblical prophesies.
Test everything.
Among the vast amount of beliefs, there is a diversity of doctrines that are being taught. Is it important what doctrine that we teach? Should we not be searching the scriptures to try to understand what doctrine that Jesus taught, and teach the same doctrine?
Matt 16:6, Then Jesus said unto them, take heed and beware of the leaven of the pharisees and of the Sadducees. Verse 12, Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of the bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Those who are newly born babes in Christ, who are sustaining themselves with the milk of the word, have not grown enough in the knowledge of God's righteousness to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught, the gospel. Is not the new born babes in Christ referred to in Matt 10:5-6, as the lost sheep of the house of Israel ? (Jacob surname Israel who is representative of God's elect, Rom 9:11) Is this not who Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach the gospel to?
Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.
Is it not a gradual process for a newborn babe in Christ to grow into maturity?
Eph 4:11-12, And he gave some apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers, For "perfecting of the SAINTS, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of THE BODY OF CHRIST".
Matt 16:6, Then Jesus said unto them, take heed and beware of the leaven of the pharisees and of the Sadducees. Verse 12, Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of the bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Those who are newly born babes in Christ, who are sustaining themselves with the milk of the word, have not grown enough in the knowledge of God's righteousness to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught, the gospel. Is not the new born babes in Christ referred to in Matt 10:5-6, as the lost sheep of the house of Israel ? (Jacob surname Israel who is representative of God's elect, Rom 9:11) Is this not who Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach the gospel to?
Isaiah 28:9-10, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.
Is it not a gradual process for a newborn babe in Christ to grow into maturity?
Eph 4:11-12, And he gave some apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers, For "perfecting of the SAINTS, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of THE BODY OF CHRIST".