50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why do you ignore the parallel between the 2nd, third and 4th seals and the Olivet Discourse?

I don't ignore them. I've posted plenty on those connections, also.

cv5's one video he posted had supplied a fairly good synopsis of those (how they are EQUIVALENT [SEALS = BoBPs], as I've been saying). I believe they are yet "FUTURE," due to the "SEQUENCE" and "chronology" issues in these related texts (like Lk21:12 making the point that "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth PANGS, the events surrounding "70ad" [vv.12-24a/b] must take place first [BEFORE ALL of those!! (... but not *immediately* before, though!)])


For example, of the 2nd SEAL "Wars," I've pointed out how Ezek39:7's wording corresponds with what Joseph did in the [approx] second year of his "SEVEN YEAR FAMINE," where Gen45:1 says, "And there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE *HIMSELF* KNOWN UNTO his brethren" (with Ezek39:7 saying, "So [/thus / in this way] will *I* MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"... ; see also Gen46:2 "IN THE NIGHT" [Dan7:7 also]... again, in relation to Joseph's "SEVEN YEAR FAMINE")... ; relating also to the Ezek38:18-19's "WRATH" words.

(Joseph's FIRST dream parallel Christ's FIRST advent [comp. Gen37:8 with Lk19:14 (also 1Sam8:7 / Acts3:24 = re: these "SUFFERING SERVANT" days [also in vv.13,26 per the Grk])]; his SECOND dream parallel the events surrounding Christ's SECOND advent [Rev12, and so forth])


I'm not neglecting the parallels / equivalents... I was merely (in these most recent posts) establishing its "ARRIVAL" point in time (Paul tells what that is, as I've stated... and this parallels SEAL #1 [the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that Jesus had also spoken of! Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "lest A CERTAIN ONE *deceive* you, FOR MANY shall come in My name saying..." (the *you* in this text is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," but those TO WHOM "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" WAS PROMISED--a consistent and "proleptic 'you'" throughout... and (in view of what I've already put) ALL of Matt24 is what FOLLOWS "our Rapture"]).





We simply are not going to agree on this point.

I do not believe the SEALS / BEGINNING of birth PANGS have yet commenced, but WILL in the future, specific, LIMITED time-period we commonly call "the 7-yr Trib," aka the initial part of "the DOTL" time-period, aka the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, aka the "70th Week" (Dan9:27a[26b] "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"--parallel to other passages I've listed...)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It seems like you are reading some idea that you think is relevant to pre-trib into Ireneaus' remarks when there is no reason to interpret them that way. That's what pre-tribbers do with a lot of verses in the Bible, reading pre-trib into passages like II Thessalonians 2. Where are the verses that lead someone to believe in pre-trib in the first place, without having to assume it and read it into the passage? That is what is lacking with pre-trib, that and the scripture that just does not work with pre-trib, like Matthew 24.

People blur together (as if ONE ITEM) the Subject of 2Th2:1 with that of the Subject of 2Th2:2... but they are TWO DISTINCT ITEMS... and consequently, their not distinguishing these TWO DISTINCT ITEMS causes them to jump back over and PAST verse 2, completely IGNORING it, (to INSTEAD, grab the Subject of v.1) when ascertaining what v.3a's "that day" refers to...

Thus, missing altogether the point Paul is conveying in this context.


Do you agree that v.1's "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ and [/even] OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" speaks of the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," or not? (I do)

Verse 2 is speaking of an entirely DISTINCT Subject. What is it that YOU believe verse 2's point is?

 

[Truth7t7]

You surely do not believe CHRIST MARRIES A BUILDING DO YOU ? ? ?

That is a classic KJV mistake.


Here ARE JEWISH HOMES adorned as A BRIDE for the WEDDING, and the home is Veiled, because in orthodox Judaism it is MANDATORY to build a New Dwelling Place for the BRIDE in the FATHER's House. The NEW JERUSALEM is the NEW DWELLING PLACE, that CHRIST has built for HIS BRIDE. IT WILL BE IN HEAVEN until the Millennial Kingdom is FINISHED.

,

,

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT. IT IS GOING TO ARRIVE ON EARTH STILL DRESSED AS THESE HOUSES, ONLY FANCIER.

Revelation 21:2 (ASV)
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:2 (NCV)
2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It was prepared like a bride dressed for her husband.

Revelation 21:2 (GWT)
2 Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, dressed like a bride ready for her husband.

Revelation 21:2 (NIV)
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Therefore it is not the BRIDE, but the DWELLING PLACE HE BUILT FOR HIS BRIDE, "THE ASSEMBLY " and where HE MARRIED HER.


That is AFTER the 7 YEARS of TRIBULATION and the Millennial Kingdom, is OVER. In Other words IT IS THE BEGINNING of the Eternal State, when the NEW HEAVEN (atmosphere) and NEW EARTH. That is NOT the BRIDE it self, it is ADORNED AS A BRIDE, in other words it is the still is adorned FOR THE WEDDING OF CHRIST, to the HIS ASSEMBLY the BRIDE.

There will be a 3.5 year tribulation, and the place Jesus prepared for the Church is New Jerusalem

There will be no Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a false teaching of man

Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.

 

[VCO]

There will be a 3.5 year tribulation, and the place Jesus prepared for the Church is New Jerusalem

There will be no Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a false teaching of man

Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire.

WRONG on all COUNTS.

No, 7 years TRIBULATION, at the 3.5 year mark, Antichrist marches into the Third TEMPLE, and demands to be worshipped, and GOD intensifies the TRIBULATION.

The Millennial KINGDOM is PROPHESIED, and will HAPPEN a LOT OF IT is in Zech 14.

HIS FILNAL JUDGEMENT will not happen until AFTHER HE REIGNS ON EARTH AS KING OF KINGS for a 1000 years.

Better read more of the BIBLE.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

now for the pre-trib verses? Let me guess, [...] Matthew 24:40, the

Matt24:40 is not a "pre-trib" passage.

Jesus is covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth, and the time-period that immediately precedes and leads UP TO *that*; He is not covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" AT ALL anywhere in the Olivet Discourse, but (in Matt24 [and 25]) that which FOLLOWS "our Rapture"

 

[Truth7t7]

WRONG on all COUNTS.

No, 7 years TRIBULATION, at the 3.5 year mark, Antichrist marches into the Third TEMPLE, and demands to be worshipped, and GOD intensifies the TRIBULATION.

The Millennial KINGDOM is PROPHESIED, and will HAPPEN a LOT OF IT is in Zech 14.

HIS FILNAL JUDGEMENT will not happen until AFTHER HE REIGNS ON EARTH AS KING OF KINGS for a 1000 years.

Better read more of the BIBLE.

Zechariah Chapter 14 Is The (Eternal Kingdom) "After" The Day Of The Lord In Fire And Final Judgement, The River Of Life Is Present

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Say again? Clarify
Rev. 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. [which is the Holy Spirit.]
Jesus asked me "Why is He still in the throne room? I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended."
in other words, Jesus is giving a strong hint that at that time in the vision Jesus had not yet ascended.

[somehow I've been missing some posts from pages back! my apologies for just now seeing this]

Well, I have a problem with that idea too... which I've spelled out in many past posts:

--Jesus ascended TWICE;

--the FIRST time was ON FIRSTFRUIT / His Resurrection Day after He told MM "I [ACTIVE] ASCEND" (John 20:17), and told her to "GO unto my brethren and SAY UNTO them" (Fulfilling Lev23:10-12 / 1Cor15:20; And no one SAW Him "ascend" at THIS one; It was just "GO to my brethren and SAY UNTO them...", i.e. VERBAL TESTIMONY *ONLY* ! [later the text says, "[Jesus] UPBRAIDED them [the 11] with their UNBELIEF and hardness of heart, because they BELIEVED NOT them which HAD SEEN Him after He was risen" Mk16:14 [i.e. who had TOLD them / VERBAL TESTIMONY *only*... engaging a response of "faith," sight-unseen, so to speak [BELIEVING the VERBAL (WORDS) TESTIMONY])

--the SECOND time was some "40 days" LATER, in Acts 1, which was VISIBLE (and will be how He "shall SO COME in LIKE MANNER as ye have SEEN HIM going [/traveling] INTO Heaven"--that is, at His Rev19 "RETURN" to the earth / "OPENLY MANIFEST" [/'MANIFESTATION of His presence' 2Th2:8b] point-in-time, when "EVERY EYE shall SEE Him" [which is NOT the 2Th2:1 point in time, BY CONTRAST ])





[in my view... (the pre-trib viewpoint)... this ^ PATTERN holds true (re: the "future" events)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That theory doesn't square with scripture. Dan 9:27a finds triple redundancy in 2Thes 2 "revealed".

This revealing is definitely a big deal.

Agreed!

And I agree with you that this point ^ marks the START of the "7 years," just as you show here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And Paul's teaching is, He CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining Him is "taken out of the way" or departed.

I think we agree that the three verses in 2Th2 are speaking of "our Rapture" event (and point-in-time) from v.1 :

--"THE Departure *FIRST*" (v.3b)

--"what is restraining IN ORDER THAT..." (v.6)

--(v.7b) "the one restraining AT PRESENT, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be]. AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked BE REVEALED..." (v.8a)



Now, if you see v.7b as a third reference (besides v.1) to "our Rapture" event (as I do), then consider the following:

--years ago I did a study on the many times the phrase "AND THEN [kai tote]" is used (I cannot recall the number of times, but it was fairly substantial)... from my recollection, they all carried the meaning of [something like],
..."what followed on the heels [was such and such];
...or, "consequently [these next things took place]";
...or, "the resulting outcome [was this or that]...";
...or, "in the aftermath [this other thing occurred]."

It ("AND THEN [kai tote]") never carries the meaning of, "then a lengthy time later [such and such happened]...". No.


See the difference??



But this is what you want me to accept.


I reject that notion for the reasons I've been supplying, and this one too ^ . = )

 

[VCO]

Zechariah Chapter 14 Is The (Eternal Kingdom) "After" The Day Of The Lord In Fire And Final Judgement, The River Of Life Is Present

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

NO! It is talking about HIS RETURN TO EARTH TO SET UP HIS 1000 Year Kingdom.

 

[VCO]

We needed that refresher thanks.

Sometimes I think we all need to research Jewish Custom, especially Wedding Proposal, Wedding Ceremony (7 full days), ending with the Official Wedding Supper. It HELPS keep us on track, in our interpretation of the BIBLE. I am not saying it gives us a totally different Understanding, but a MUCH DEEPER UNDERSTANDING. A couple people hear have an understanding that is way off in left field somewheres, strictly because they have never researched Jewish Customs.

For example: Most of us Know that JESUS CHRIST is the FULFILLMENT of all of the JEWISH FEASTS. But relatively FEW of us have actually studies the Feasts of Israel, and their SIGNIFICANCE. One of the Feasts that JESUS IS YET to FULFILL the FEAST OF TRUMPETS. He will fulfill that FEAST during the RAPTURE. That TRUMPET call is a series of Calls, that closes with a LONG AND LOUDER CALL, and KNOWN AS THE LAST TUMP in Judaism. It has been KNOWN as the LAST TRUMP every since they started to make SHOFARS (a horn out of a Rams Horns). Still most Christians today think it has to be a reference to the Seventh Trumpet Judgement, and it is NOT.

Hear is what it sounds LIKE.

Hear is where the Trumpet will SOUND:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[VCO]

You have to look at the overall patterns of all of the parallel versus. When you do, the identity of the rider of Rev 6:2 becomes crystal clear.

Biblical prophecy is a network of patterns, codes, types. Sometimes you have to back off and look at the big picture.

The Rider of the White Horse is not Christ. He is a Conqueror that conquers Peacefully, but he is the Antichrist, invited to RULE, which means he will be a Ruler of the world only for a short while.
The Rider of the Red Horse brings World War III, Nuclear War, and Radiation Poisoning.
Followed by the Rider of the Black Horse, which is FAMINE and more Death.
Followed by what every war Brings, the Rider of the Pale Horse, which is EVEN more Death, by Sickness and Disease.


QUOTE:
Rev. 6:2 white horse. The animal represents an unparalleled time of world peace—a false peace that is to be short-lived (see note on v. 4). This peace will be ushered in by a series of false messiahs, culminating with the Antichrist (Matt. 24:3-5). He who sat on it. The four horses and their riders do not represent specific individuals, but forces. Some, however, identify this rider with Antichrist. Although he will be the leading figure, John’s point is that the entire world will follow him, being obsessed with pursuing this false peace. bow. The bow is a symbol of war, but the absence of arrows implies that this victory is a bloodless one—a peace won by covenant and agreement, not by war (cf. Dan. 9:24-27). crown. This word refers to the kind of laurel wreath awarded winning athletes. It “was given to him.” Antichrist becomes king, elected by the world’s inhabitants regardless of the cost, and will conquer the entire earth in a bloodless coup.
The MacArthur Bible Commentary. :END QUOTE.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sometimes I think we all need to research Jewish Custom, especially Wedding Proposal, Wedding Ceremony (7 full days), ending with the Official Wedding Supper. It HELPS keep us on track, in our interpretation of the BIBLE. I am not saying it gives us a totally different Understanding, but a MUCH DEEPER UNDERSTANDING. A couple people hear have an understanding that is way off in left field somewheres, strictly because they have never researched Jewish Customs.

For example: Most of us Know that JESUS CHRIST is the FULFILLMENT of all of the JEWISH FEASTS. But relatively FEW of us have actually studies the Feasts of Israel, and their SIGNIFICANCE. One of the Feasts that JESUS IS YET to FULFILL the FEAST OF TRUMPETS. He will fulfill that FEAST during the RAPTURE. That TRUMPET call is a series of Calls, that closes with a LONG AND LOUDER CALL, and KNOWN AS THE LAST TUMP in Judaism. It has been KNOWN as the LAST TRUMP every since they started to make SHOFARS (a horn out of a Rams Horns). Still most Christians today think it has to be a reference to the Seventh Trumpet Judgement, and it is NOT.

Hear is what it sounds LIKE.

Hear is where the Trumpet will SOUND:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The main scripture used by supporters of the pre-trib rapture is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

Agreed!

And I agree with you that this point ^ marks the START of the "7 years," just as you show here.

The Antichrist being revealed starts the 1260 or 42 month or 3.5 year tribulation

 

[Absolutely]

No, he didn't say that.

He said, already-wed ppl will be coming out of Heaven with Him, at THAT point.


[recall, (statement of fact) "the marriage CAME... and the Bride PREPARED"... and now (as "ALREADY-WED") they are heading DOWN TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" on the earth (aka the earthly MK age), where the "guests [plural]" are still located, at that point, and will have been "having been invited [PERFECT participle]" TO IT all throughout the trib years (via the particular msg: Matt24:14 / 26:13 and Matt22:9-14, etc)]

No wedding supper on earth.

That is out of step

 

[Absolutely]

Yeah. I done known this for quite a while. SOME of them teach this
This is the achilles heel of premillennialism

MANY of them believe it, but they dont talk alot about it during sermons or bible studies (for obvious reasons) but occasionally it slips out.

AS you say, MOST Christians probably will reject this as an offense to Christ's blood

Let this be a lesson, where WOODEN LITERALISM and refusal to accept symbolic language and refusal to accept that the NEW COVENANT is built on better promises will lead you.

...as if the Jews ever accepted Jesus.

Psssst.....they still don't and long for the future temple.

 

[Absolutely]

You obviously have something stuck in your mind that is not in the passage, that you read into it, and are so unaware that you are reading into it that you do not get it when other people point out what you are doing. Apparently you think the flood refers to the tribulation and getting into the boat is analogous with a pre-trib rapture.

Things may have gotten pretty messed up before the flood with the Nephelim, but people were still marrying. They were surprised, apparently, when the flood came. The passage says 'so shall also the of the Son of Man be. The passage already sets the coming of the Son of Man AFTER the tribulation. I quoted verses to show that.

Let's consider:
1. The passage sets the 'coming of the Son of Man' AFTER the tribulation.
2. Neither this nor any other scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture.

Therefore, it does not make sense to equate the flood with the pre-trib rapture scenario. For two reasons. A. The Bible does not teach pre-trib rapture. B. The passage sets the coming of the Son of Man AFTER the rapture.

I don't get you objection either. Don't you think the 'coming of the Son of Man' is seven years after the tribulation? The part about Noah and the flood is followed by 'so shall also the coming of the son of Man be.' So that part should not be up for debate.

The gathering together of the elect is set 'after the tribulation' in this passage, also.

Your interpretation is not possible because it contradicts the text.

Did you see rev 14??????( opposite of your view) ...omitted of course

Did you see the rapture verses????( omitted of course)

Did you see the POST TRIB GATHERING was NOT done by Jesus????? ( omitted of course)
Did you see that ANGELS GATHER...NOT JESUS ??? ( omitted of course)


""". They were surprised, apparently, when the flood came. The passage says 'so shall also the of the Son of Man be. """

So here we have normal human life of peace safety and marrying etc.
DURING WHICH TIME ...Ahem...BEFORE THE FLOOD....Noah and family are TAKEN INTO THE ARK....( ark being a type of heaven....AND GO OVER A MILE UP INTO THE HEAVENS....

OMIT
OMIT
OMIT
REPEAT.

Your posts all DEPEND on omission ...and of course the necessary reframing of verses.

Yawn

 

[Absolutely]

You obviously have something stuck in your mind that is not in the passage, that you read into it, and are so unaware that you are reading into it that you do not get it when other people point out what you are doing. Apparently you think the flood refers to the tribulation and getting into the boat is analogous with a pre-trib rapture.

Things may have gotten pretty messed up before the flood with the Nephelim, but people were still marrying. They were surprised, apparently, when the flood came. The passage says 'so shall also the of the Son of Man be. The passage already sets the coming of the Son of Man AFTER the tribulation. I quoted verses to show that.

Let's consider:
1. The passage sets the 'coming of the Son of Man' AFTER the tribulation.
2. Neither this nor any other scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture.

Therefore, it does not make sense to equate the flood with the pre-trib rapture scenario. For two reasons. A. The Bible does not teach pre-trib rapture. B. The passage sets the coming of the Son of Man AFTER the rapture.

I don't get you objection either. Don't you think the 'coming of the Son of Man' is seven years after the tribulation? The part about Noah and the flood is followed by 'so shall also the coming of the son of Man be.' So that part should not be up for debate.

The gathering together of the elect is set 'after the tribulation' in this passage, also.

Your interpretation is not possible because it contradicts the text.[/Q

 

[Absolutely]

Agreed. THAT kind of "bow" aka "the battle bow" (its last 3 occurrences in the OT)

That kind of "bow" (the "battle bow" kind, with arrows) is also used:

--in contexts speaking of a "DECEITFUL bow" - Psalm 78:9 / Hosea 7:16

--in contexts speaking of "bend THEIR TONGUES like bows; LIES prevail over truth in the land. For they proceed from evil to evil, and they do not take Me into account,” declares the LORD." - Jeremiah 9:3

--in contexts speaking of "The WICKED have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation." - Psalm 11:2 / 37:14

[etc...]

Likewise, there are a number of verses speaking of "ARROWS" in the same way ('lies' /'deceit').


Jesus says, in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "Take heed, lest A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis] *deceive* you, FOR MANY will come in My name saying..." (i.e. the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" [with many more following on from THOSE], where the INITIAL ONE, Paul says [1Th5:2-3] is at the *ARRIVAL* of the DOTL time-period, aka the START of the TRIB YRS! aka SEAL #1... aka the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia] is after the working of Satan" [lying wonders... deceivableness...] of "the man of sin" 2Th2:9a, IN HIS TIME [the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" time-period, aka the first aspect of "the DOTL," meaning the "7 TRIB yrs"] )


... and which SEAL #1 which Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says (when you COMPARE THE GREEK):

--that 'mello [SURE to / CERTAIN to]' MEANS the same as "MUST";
--and "TO SHEW UNTO" = "I WILL SHEW YOU";
--and "things which must come to pass AFTER THESE THINGS" = "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" in CONTRAST TO "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said to be "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"),

... that this is speaking of the specific, future, LIMITED time-period [the 7 yrs] that both Rom16:20 ("CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*") and Lk18:8 ("AVENGE *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*") ALSO speak to! [not speaking of "NOW"... but FOLLOWING "our Rapture"];

...and when you consider that the "4 living creatures" are described in the SAME WAY that the "4-directional plotment" of Israel is described in the OT (so, concerning "earthly-located" matters), but interestingly enough, also specific "time-stamp-related" things (each of the "4 living creatures," that is);

... and when you consider that this is when Jesus will 'STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:9 etc;

...and when you consider that 5:6 states "seven Spirits of God HAVING BEEN SENT [PERFECT participle] out into/unto all the earth" can just as easily mean, FOLLOWING "our Rapture / THE Departure";

...and when you consider that "kings went [/go] out to battle" at a VERY SPECIFIC point-in-time/date (in Scripture), think: Jesus in Rev19, then counting back precisely "2520 days," one can see that the Rev5:6 "context"/setting ("[saw IN THE MIDST of the throne and of the 4 living creatures and IN THE MIDST of the elders (i.e. UP IN Heaven)] a Lamb STANDING as HAVING BEEN SLAIN [PERFECT participle]...") is also pinpointing a particular calendar date [but not back in "32ad," see ])





--way too much more to say about this topic... but as you can see, I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint that the SEALS have been unfolding since the first century. No.



[BTW, I *disagree* that the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (Rev7:9,14) coming out of "THE GREAT tribulation" (i.e. the SECOND HALF of the 7 yrs) are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... NO. Disagree!]

"""[BTW, I *disagree* that the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (Rev7:9,14) coming out of "THE GREAT tribulation" (i.e. the SECOND HALF of the 7 yrs) are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... NO. Disagree!]"""

Huh?????
Who says the great trib is the second half???

How can they be martyred and in heaven without being the body of Christ.????

 

[Absolutely]

I am only saying that God was showing John a vision of the past. We get the timing, NOT from 95 AD that John was seeing this vision, but from what John saw; A throne room without Jesus pointing to a time before He ascended. It was a throne room with the Holy Spirit there: so again a time before Jesus ascended. There was a search for one worthy to open the book, and it ended in failure. Why? Because Jesus had not yet risen. Shortly after that He DID rise, and was then found worthy. Here it is pointing to while He was in the belly of the earth and they just rose. Finally, John saw Jesus ascend and then send the Holy Spirit down: circa 32 AD. And this is the CONTEXT of the first seal.

heres the deal
By bible says that interpretation is not private.
He reveals things to his church or assembly.

Show me this historic view from a group or link or another man with this interpretation.

God is not going to just reveal something to one person.

You use the word failure. It just says not found.
Angels were looking for a man.

It does not mean Jesus WAS NOT standing there the entire time.

In fact he did not look like a man when he WAS SEEN.