50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
From what I posted, I actually quoted the passage. So what are you asking for? I gave you book chapter and verses. The translation was NIV.

Now, what's your point?

Your claim is false, you didnt give the "Translation" your entire post is seen below, with no translation identified

OK, either you misread my post, or you didn't even bother reading it.

So, look at my response above. Do you see a period, looks like this (.)? It's after the word "verses". With me so far? What follows is a sentence, "The translation was NIV."

The period, which looks like this (.) separates what I HAD ALREADY GIVEN to you. What followed was what I hadn't given to you in the previous post because up to this point (1,540+ posts) NO ONE has asked for what translation another poster was using.

But the sentence FOLLOWING that little period, which looks like this (.) was my answer about which translation I used.

So again, what is your point?

 

[Truth7t7]

FreeGrace2 said:
From what I posted, I actually quoted the passage. So what are you asking for? I gave you book chapter and verses. The translation was NIV.

Now, what's your point?

OK, either you misread my post, or you didn't even bother reading it.

So, look at my response above. Do you see a period, looks like this (.)? It's after the word "verses". With me so far? What follows is a sentence, "The translation was NIV."

The period, which looks like this (.) separates what I HAD ALREADY GIVEN to you. What followed was what I hadn't given to you in the previous post because up to this point (1,540+ posts) NO ONE has asked for what translation another poster was using.

But the sentence FOLLOWING that little period, which looks like this (.) was my answer about which translation I used.

So again, what is your point?

Once again your claim is false, no place in post #1530 did you even hint as NIV being the translation

Quote FreeGrace2 Post #1530 below

I have. And I will again. Will YOU pay attention this time?

2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that the "coming of the Lord" is AFTER "the rebellion" and "man of lawlessness is revealed". And the gathering is WHEN the "coming of the Lord" happens.

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Get a bible and post the remedy to your dilemma
Get your spectacles on and read with comprehension.

Now, where is the verse that makes very clear that raptured believers going to heaven?

How about YOU getting a Bible and post the remedy to YOUR dilemma.

 

[cv5]

You believe and falsely teach Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 is a future temple that will be built in a fairy tale Millennial Kingdom on this earth, with renewed animal sacrifice directed by God, with this being (Blasphemy) to the finished work on Calvary

Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 is nothing more than the Zerubbabel 2nd Temple, built in 536BC and destroyed by the Roman's in 70AD

Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 represents Ezekiel receiving the vision of the 2nd Zerubbabel Temple in the 25th year of the Babylonian Captivity, he was instructed in verse 4 below to show the vision to the house of Israel in the Captivity

Ezekiel 40:1-4KJV
1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me thither.
2 In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.
4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

The Zerubbabel 2nd Temple,and Gods Instruction For Blood Sacrifice For Consecration And The (Sin Offering)

Ezekiel 43:18-21KJV
18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

Not even close man.....

Zechariah 14:16-17
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

It is entirely likely that Jesus, at his Second Coming is going to terraform and uplift the entire region to create a new mountain above all other mountains.

Isa. 2:1–3
The word that Isaiah, the son of Amoz, saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lᴏʀᴅ’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lᴏʀᴅ, to the house of the God of Jacob.

Mic 4:1–2.
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lᴏʀᴅ shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills, and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob

You do realize that the entire holy district is 50 X 50 miles?

And the Millennial Temple itself dwarfs the Zerubbabel Temple, which was no larger than the Solomonic temple, and far far smaller than the Herodian temple. The Millennial temple is 500 reeds or about 5000 feet per side. Absolutely enormous.

Was Ezekiel exaggerating? Delusional? Or speaking of the glorious Millennial Temple?

 

[lamad]

"""The rapture may well take half the world's population"""

Half the church

Christanity is a small percentage of earths population.

Nearly 2 billion of the population is children that will be raptured. God is not going to send children into His wrath.

 

[lamad]

Hopefully not with animal sacrifices intact?

I know some here believe in that false teaching. What an INSULT to the blood of Christ!

Not at all: thousands of years of animal sacrifices pointing TO Christ (Although many may not have understood that) so after the fact, another thousands years of animal sacrifices pointing BACK to Christ. People forget. This will be a reminder of the COST of sin.

 

[lamad]

A diametrically opposed statement if there ever was one. Both can't be correct.


All you've said here is that there are 3 comings of the Lord. But where is the Scripture that says this?

Who do you know who preaches THE THREE ADVENTS OF CHRIST? I'd like to know.

Most pretribbers believe in three comings but don't have the guts to say it.

1. You already know of His coming to the cross.
2. 1 thes. 4 shows a prewrath coming.
3. Rev. 19 shows a post wrath coming.

See how simple this is?

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
Maybe it hasn't occurred to you, but on a trip from heaven to earth, one has to pass through the atmosphere, where Jesus resurrects all the accompanying dead saints, and gathers up all the living believers and changes them. And THEN He continues on down to earth.

How can the "dead in Christ" be "caught up"? They CAME with Him. It's the living believers who are CAUGHT UP together with THEM (that would be Jesus Christ and the saints already in heaven).

It seems as though it is most of the time.


And you don't have any verse, therefore proof.


Well I explained it and you apparently agree. So, great!


Did I say otherwise? No.


I've said that.


And I've made that clear as well. Where were you?


Read my quote again. That's my point.


On this point, we are TOGETHER, not "very close".

It is amazing how you forget. I will have to paste.

"btw, the phrase "dead in Christ will rise first" refers to the physical bodies being raised from the dirt. Their souls came with Jesus from heaven at the Second Advent. "

My point was, It is the human spirit that possesses a soul, not the soul possessing a spirit. When they saw Jesus walking on they water, they did not think it was a "soul." They thought it was a spirit.

Matthew 14:26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

Agreed!

You are agreeing with error. You are pulling those first seals out of their context. God is in the church age and you want to advance the text 2000 years into the future.

 

[lamad]

Yes, let's do.


Well, it's not clear that he didn't. "is come" is in the aorist. He just as easily was saying that it's ALREADY here.

Why wouldn't the FIRST seal be when the Trib begins, and the DOTL with it? Please explain.


Actually, I do believe John. And he spoke of God's wrath has already being here. In fact, all of ch 6 is about the beginning of the trib. Not just the 6th seal judgment.

Why do YOU believe that the wrath begins with the 6th seal, and not the first one? My view is more reasonable than yours.

It is very simple: John did not start the book with the first seal. It is in chapter 6 and chapter's 4 & 5 are the context. In that context God is pointing to 32 AD over and over.
1: Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father: chapter 4. (While He was on the earth or under the earth.)
2. The Holy Spirit there in chapter 4, but Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. AT this point in time he had ascended some 60 years previous. John is seeing the throne room some time before He ascended.
3. Jesus NOT FOUND worthy to take the book and open the seals: chapter 5.
4. Jesus IS found in the next search. (Shows time moving. What changed between Jesus NOT found and Jesus found except time? Jesus prevailed over death. Again points to 32 AD.
5 John saw Jesus as He assended back into the throne room and sent the Holy Spirit down. 32 AD.

John uses Aorist verbs for most of his book. We can only find the timing of things when they are written with these verbs by WHERE in John's narrative the first mention is.

Anyway, God is not angry with the martyrs of the 5th seal. Wrath or judgment does not start until the final martyr. So wrath cannot possibly start with the first seal.

Next, John used the color white 17 times in his book. It would be silly to thing He used it 16 times for righteousness or Godliness, and once for something evil. The first seal is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel.

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church with the gospel.

Seal 5 is martyrs of the church age. They are told judgment will not come until the final martyr. So it is in the right order: martyrs, then after the final one, judgment with the 6th seal.

The "trib" is the 70th week, and God MARKED the 70th week with 7's: the week does not start until the 7th seal.

My view is more reasonable than yours. I actually have many reasons that wrath starts at the first mention. [/QUOTE]

 

[lamad]

"""No one questions that he was there AFTER He showed up in the throne room in chapter 5. When He was not there is in chapter 4. I will ask you the same exact question Jesus asked me when He taught me these things:"""

Not sure the point you are making.

Seems to me you are saying Jesus rose from the dead and ascended from earth in rev 5

I am only saying that God was showing John a vision of the past. We get the timing, NOT from 95 AD that John was seeing this vision, but from what John saw; A throne room without Jesus pointing to a time before He ascended. It was a throne room with the Holy Spirit there: so again a time before Jesus ascended. There was a search for one worthy to open the book, and it ended in failure. Why? Because Jesus had not yet risen. Shortly after that He DID rise, and was then found worthy. Here it is pointing to while He was in the belly of the earth and they just rose. Finally, John saw Jesus ascend and then send the Holy Spirit down: circa 32 AD. And this is the CONTEXT of the first seal.

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
You seem not to even grasp the real issue here.

2 Thess 2 PROVES that the Lord's "coming" and "our being gathered to Him" is AFTER the man of sin is REVEALED. That would be the Beast #1, aka AC. So v.1-3 prove that the Trib occurs BEFORE "His coming" and "our being gathered to Him" Got it?

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So, v.1 identifies the Second Advent then the "rapture".
v.2 speaks of when the Trib BEGINS. The DOTL begins with the Trib.
v.3 specifically and clearly states that "THAT DAY" (referring to v.1 and the Lord's coming at the Second Advent" "will not come UNTIL the rebellion (aka Trib) occurs and "man of lawlessness is revealed".

It could not be stated any more clearly.

2 Thess 2 PROVES that the Lord's "coming" and "our being gathered to Him" is AFTER the man of sin is REVEALED.

No, it only SEEMS that way with a cursory reading. It is not really what Paul is saying.

He IS saying that the departing (of the church) comes first, THEN the man of sin is revealed: exactly the order we find in Paul's first letter and the same order we find in Revelation. Pauls argument is, when people see a very significant departing, then after that see the man of sin revealed, then they (whoever sees these two things) will know for sure that THE DAY has started and they are IN IT.

This fits John's narrative in Revelation: the 7th trumpet sounds as the man of sin enters the temple and declares He is God - and at this moment THE DAY has already started and people are IN IT. Notice that the fleeing into the wilderness comes right after the 7th trumpet. They are following what Jesus said to do: FLEE the moment you see the abomination.

The truth is, the KJV's "falling away" does not fit the context of the rest of the passage. That is, it cannot be parallel with the restraining force taken out of the way, nor can it BE the restraining force as it is happening. Anyway, how would ANYONE know when enough people had fallen away that they could say, "Now this is what Paul said...." On the other hand, the departing of the church will be VERY significant.

Next, if the falling away is Paul's intent, then it does not answer Paul's "and now you know what is restraining." Most people don't know. They only guess and often it is the wrong guess.

"THAT DAY" (referring to v.1 and the Lord's coming at the Second Advent" "

Sorry, but "that day" starts at the 6th seal in chapter 6, not in chapter 19 where Jesus comes to Armageddon.
(By second advent I am quite sure you don't mean a pretrib coming.)

So, v.1 identifies the Second Advent then the "rapture".

Vs 1 identifies Paul's theme of the pretrib coming and the rapture.

As you can see, we read every verse differently so will always disagree until we are THERE in heaven.

 

[lamad]

FreeGrace2 said:
You seem not to even grasp the real issue here.

2 Thess 2 PROVES that the Lord's "coming" and "our being gathered to Him" is AFTER the man of sin is REVEALED. That would be the Beast #1, aka AC. So v.1-3 prove that the Trib occurs BEFORE "His coming" and "our being gathered to Him" Got it?

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So, v.1 identifies the Second Advent then the "rapture".
v.2 speaks of when the Trib BEGINS. The DOTL begins with the Trib.
v.3 specifically and clearly states that "THAT DAY" (referring to v.1 and the Lord's coming at the Second Advent" "will not come UNTIL the rebellion (aka Trib) occurs and "man of lawlessness is revealed".

It could not be stated any more clearly.

Please explain how a falling away can get the man of sin revealed as shown in verse 3b. Somehow, somewhere in 3a the restrainer has to be "taken out of the way."

 

[lamad]

A diametrically opposed statement if there ever was one. Both can't be correct.

My meaning was, you had not statement right when you said "second advent" because at the pretrib rapture it will be His second coming. But I KNOW that was not your meaning.

YOu seem to have missed my post #1475

 

[cv5]

Not at all: thousands of years of animal sacrifices pointing TO Christ (Although many may not have understood that) so after the fact, another thousands years of animal sacrifices pointing BACK to Christ. People forget. This will be a reminder of the COST of sin.

I agree that is the reasoning for the millennial temple sacrifices. Let us not forget the Mosaic sacrifices did not truly atone for sin. They were merely a symbolic type of the ultimate atoning sacrifice of Jesus Messiah. Let us not forget that there still will be residual sin during the millennium, which will result in the final rebellion at the end of the millennium.

 

[VCO]

Not even close man.....

Zechariah 14:16-17
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

It is entirely likely that Jesus, at his Second Coming is going to terraform and uplift the entire region to create a new mountain above all other mountains.

Isa. 2:1–3
The word that Isaiah, the son of Amoz, saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lᴏʀᴅ’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lᴏʀᴅ, to the house of the God of Jacob.

Mic 4:1–2.
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lᴏʀᴅ shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills, and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob

You do realize that the entire holy district is 50 X 50 miles?

And the Millennial Temple itself dwarfs the Zerubbabel Temple, which was no larger than the Solomonic temple, and far far smaller than the Herodian temple. The Millennial temple is 500 reeds or about 5000 feet per side. Absolutely enormous.

Was Ezekiel exaggerating? Delusional? Or speaking of the glorious Millennial Temple?

I think it is PROPHESIED.

Zechariah 14:10 (NCV)
10 All the land south of Jerusalem from Geba to Rimmon will be turned into a plain. Jerusalem will be raised up, but it will stay in the same place. The city will reach from the Benjamin Gate and to the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

Zechariah 14:11 (NCV)
11 People will live there, and it will never be destroyed again. Jerusalem will be safe.

 

[Hevosmies]

Deny if you wish but it's right there in black and white. No doubt there will be sacrifices during the millennial reign. However they have absolutely nothing to do with sacrifice for the satisfaction of sin. These sacrifices are a remembrance of the Atonement and a means of worship.

I can see you just are repeating what someone told you. If you have actually READ these chapters in Ezekiel you know it says SIN OFFERING quite a few times. NEXT.

 

[Hevosmies]

Not at all: thousands of years of animal sacrifices pointing TO Christ (Although many may not have understood that) so after the fact, another thousands years of animal sacrifices pointing BACK to Christ. People forget. This will be a reminder of the COST of sin.

Yeah sure, it says SIN OFFERING in those verses. Nice try to sneak in this blasphemous teaching. NEXT.

Ezekiel 43:18-21KJV
18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

(quote from Truth7t7)

MAN: this teaching REALLY is the achilles heel of premillennialism. LUCKILY not all of them believe it. It seems to be once again the DISPIE crowd is at the heresy's heart.

 

[lamad]

Yeah sure, it says SIN OFFERING in those verses. Nice try to sneak in this blasphemous teaching. NEXT.

Ezekiel 43:18-21KJV
18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

(quote from Truth7t7)

MAN: this teaching REALLY is the achilles heel of premillennialism. LUCKILY not all of them believe it. It seems to be once again the DISPIE crowd is at the heresy's heart.

So you don't believe Ezekiel. What other parts of God's Holy Word do you despise?

By the way, weren't the original offers of innocent animals also "sin" offerings? Yet we know the the blood of bulls and goats can NEVER remove sin or even the guilt of sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Once again your claim is false, no place in post #1530 did you even hint as NIV being the translation

Good heavens, man. That's what I SAID!! Please read my posts before making such FALSE accusations. I even EXPLAINED all that.

Now, where is the verse that makes very clear that raptured believers going to heaven?

How about YOU getting a Bible and post the remedy to YOUR dilemma.

 

[cv5]

Yeah sure, it says SIN OFFERING in those verses. Nice try to sneak in this blasphemous teaching. NEXT.

Ezekiel 43:18-21KJV
18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

(quote from Truth7t7)

MAN: this teaching REALLY is the achilles heel of premillennialism. LUCKILY not all of them believe it. It seems to be once again the DISPIE crowd is at the heresy's heart.

Nonsense. No animal sacrifice in the history of the world since Adam was a propitiation for sin in actuality. They either point to forward to Christ or point back to Christ. So shall it be in the millennium.

The scriptural content pointing to the earthy millennial reign of King Jesus, in Israel in Jerusalem is overwhelming and unequivocal.

Practically all of the prophets declare that this will happen in a chorus of ringing refrain. Yet you say it ain't gonna happen, Ezekiel is delusional, nothing says what it means and means what it says. Who are you gonna believe?

Tragically, the hackery and quackery on these boards is epic. You stumble at one line of text and you collapse into a heap of steaming fetid unbelief. For pity's sake get a grip on reality man.

 

[cv5]

So you don't believe Ezekiel. What other parts of God's Holy Word do you despise?

Exactly. These are not obscure texts. Quite the contrary. They could not possibly be more clear.