50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[Truth7t7]

This is a good one for the study too I think. Jesus delivers us (the church) from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Important question, then. When is the wrath to come? It happens at the return of Christ as stated in Matthew 24:29-31 and as stated in the 6th seal of Revelation 6.

Jesus will save us from the wrath to come after the great tribulation. The church will be raptured out of the way. Hopefully we'll get front row seats to watch the fireworks from a good safe distance.

I believe (The Hour) of earth's temptation will be seen at the time the Two Witnesses are raised to heaven, as the church is instructed to enter their dwellings until the indignation is past, that results in the Second Coming, resurrection and Catching up

(Just Like The Passover In Egypt)

Revelation 3:10-11KJV
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Joel 2:10-11KJV
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Isaiah 26:20KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

I believe scripture clearly teaches the Church will pass through the Lords fire in judgement at the Second Coming, on the other side of this fire is the Eternal Kingdom, in the New Heaven, Earth, Jeruusalem

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Joel 2:3KJV
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

Zechariah 13:9KJV
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

 

[lamad]

"a Lamb standing as having been slain [perfect participle]"

[is this saying, "but not really, he really hadn't been"... "it only LOOKED like it" ??]

A slain lamb is DEAD and not standing. Perhaps He appeared to John the way He really looked after being whipped almost to death, then nailed to a cross, but alive once again.

 

[Truth7t7]

The way I see it is, even if we take the vials of wrath in Revelation.

We see in Revelation 16:15, Jesus aint returned yet.

The way I see it is: Its a remake of the Israel - Egypt situation. Was Israel there when Egypt got hit with the plagues? YES. Was Israel targeted with them? NO. They were protected cause of the BLOOD OF THE LAMB. Same thing here.

Your 100% Correct, it's going to be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, as the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation 11 bring all plagues upon the wicked world, and the (Sealed) Church is protected (Fact)

All Saved Believers Are Sealed By God, Ephesians 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

As is clearly seen below, only those men that don't have the seal of God will be tormented for 5 months, desiring to die and death flees

(It's Commanded)

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

God's in control of the tribulation, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt plus some!

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

 

[cv5]

This time I am only going to answer your single paragraph.
Sorry, but bows and arrows, being inanimate objects, cannot have deceit.


What does this have at all to do with the first seal except by eisegesis? You are trying to force the idea that somehow God was thinking the Antichrist Beast when He had John pen the first seal. There is NOT ONE WORD in the description of the first seal that would hint of anything evil. Leave eisegesis for the post-tribbers. I expect better from you! And you are still ignoring the context.

Did you not stop to realize that the Beast is not known (not revealed) until he enters the temple and declares he is God? My friend, that is at the MIDPOINT of the 70th week, not the beginning. You are mistaken again. Did you notice how Jesus skipped from "the end is not yet" church age right to the middle of the week and the abomination? Why? We know from Daniel that he will confirm a covenant of some kind for 7 years. I think this is done in secret. Neither John in Revelation or Jesus say anything about it. If we follow John, the Beast is not seen until he rises up from the sea in chapter 13. This is 7 chapters after the start of the DAY at the 6th seal.


This is just more eisegesis: forcing your theory onto a verse that has not even one word to hint of such a thing. And you are STILL ignoring the context: when Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down, after prevailing over death to be found worthy.


You are forcing a theory upon a scripture (the first seal) that has no connotation of evil whatsoever. And you are still ignoring the context. WHY was Jesus not seen in the throne room at the right hand of the Father. WHY was the Holy Spirit there? Why was no man found? I will tell you what Jesus told me: unless you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this part of John's vision. All you have shown so far is eisegesis and trying to compare other verses due to preconceptions upon the first seal. You want it to be future, while John and Jesus are in church history! You are 2000 years off!

Nope. The Son of Perdition is known, by being revealed, when he brokers a peace deal with Israel. He is fully EMPOWERED later on yes.

 

[VCO]

I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, but what really concerns me about it is the way the general population has lapped it up without the slightest question.

As I was always taught, Christ could return at any second, thus making preparedness an imperative. However, we don't need a pre-trib rapture to to goad us into being prepared; there's already another very good reason: No one knows when there number's up.

See even this artist, DID NOT UNDERSTAND the Jewish Tradition of their position.

Do you know why a PreTrib Rapture, makes Perfect Since ? ? ? And to Goad us into being Prepared, HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Jesus went to the FATHER'S HOUSE (Heaven) to prepare a dwelling place for us.

John 14:2-3 (NCV)
2 There are many rooms in my Father’s house; I would not tell you this if it were not true. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
3 After I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me so that you may be where I am.


In a Jewish Orthodox Wedding Proposal, it was NON-VERBAL. He was went to a Family sit down SUPPER, in the brides old dwelling place.

HE would pour a cup of Wine, and sit it down in front of HIS chosen BRIDE.

She knew it was a Wedding Proposal, and if she drank from that cup, she was accepting the Proposal.

Jesus poured the cup, and set it PROBABLY in front of John, who was seated on HIS breast side. He and all the disciples Drank from that CUP, which is the Foundation of the Church.

Jews always reclined on cushions, with the right side against the very low Table, with the left side leaning back on a cushion. Because they concider it a chocking hazzard to face the other way, it was verified by none other then Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of the State of Israel, when he explained the Passover. Also here is a quote:

Quote:
Passover
Jewish Holidays Passover Passover History & Study Questions & Answers
Why do we recline to our left side at the seder?
By Menachem Posner
It was the custom of ancient royalty to recline on the left for two reasons:
a) Food is normally held in the right hand. Leaning toward the left leaves the right hand free.
b) Leaning on the right is a choking hazard. It can prevent the epiglottis from covering the trachea, allowing food to enter and stop the flow of oxygen.
Wishing you a happy and kosher Passover!
Rabbi Menachem Posner
:END QUOTE.


So if Jesus was Reclining, HIS right arm would be on the table, and JOHN would be on HIS Breast side, where the obvious choice of the Disciple to Set the cup down in front of, was JOHN.

John 21:20 (YLT)
20 And Peter having turned about doth see the disciple whom Jesus was loving following,
(who also reclined in the supper on his breast, and said, `Sir, who is he who is delivering thee up?')
{That is not literally on HIS BREAST, but the person immediately in front of HIM.}

John 13:31-36 (NCV)
31 When Judas was gone, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man receives his glory, and God receives glory through him.
32 If God receives glory through him, then God will give glory to the Son through himself. And God will give him glory quickly.“
33 Jesus said, “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and what I told the Jews, I tell you now: Where I am going you cannot come.
34 “I give you a new command: Love each other. You must love each other as I have loved you.
35 All people will know that you are my followers if you love each other.“
36 Simon Peter asked Jesus, “Lord, where are you going?“
Jesus answered, “Where I am going you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.“ {There is the Rapture.}


So what does JESUS DO, in the JEWISH TRADITION, after the BRIDE DRINKS FROM THE CUP ? ? ?


HE MAKES THIS STATEMENT: I am going there to prepare a place for you. That is CORRECT, that statement comes RIGHT OUT OF THE TRADITION Betrothel, and at that INSTANT, they are Called BRIDEGROOM and BRIDE. HE IS BUSY, building Us a new Dwelling Place, in HIS FATHER's HOUSE. ONLY the Father can APPROVE the New Dwelling Place, therefore ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS when the WEDDING WILL BE. That is the REAL REASON why we WAIT AND WATCH for our BRIDEGROOM to COME.

Your statement to GOAD Us into being Prepared, is TOTALLY REDICULOUS.

 

[presidente]

2. Neither this nor any other scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture.

This is only your opinion and untold millions disagree with you.

I could write, "there is no single scripture that proves a post-trib rapture."

Pre-trib is a relatively recent phenomenon. There is no evidence that anyone in history, except maybe one monk, believed in pre-trib before Darby.

But there is plenty of Biblical evidence against it. Look in I Thessalonians 4, where the rapture occurs at the parousia (coming). In the 'man of sin' passage in II Thessalonians 2, 'that wicked' will be destroyed at the brightness of Lord's parousia.

Now, if the parousia of Jesus has to take place before the man of sin is to be revealed, as pre-tribbers think, how could the destruction of the man of sin occur before the man of sin is revealed? It makes no sense.

 

[presidente]

Here is a list of verses proving a posttrib rapture:

Go look at the verses I posted many pages back.

 

[Truth7t7]

View attachment 227265
See even this artist, DID NOT UNDERSTAND the Jewish Tradition of their position.

Do you know why a PreTrib Rapture, makes Perfect Since ? ? ? And to Goad us into being Prepared, HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Jesus went to the FATHER'S HOUSE (Heaven) to prepare a dwelling place for us.

John 14:2-3 (NCV)
2 There are many rooms in my Father’s house; I would not tell you this if it were not true. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
3 After I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me so that you may be where I am.


In a Jewish Orthodox Wedding Proposal, it was NON-VERBAL. He was went to a Family sit down SUPPER, in the brides old dwelling place.

HE would pour a cup of Wine, and sit it down in front of HIS chosen BRIDE.

She knew it was a Wedding Proposal, and if she drank from that cup, she was accepting the Proposal.

Jesus poured the cup, and set it PROBABLY in front of John, who was seated on HIS breast side. He and all the disciples Drank from that CUP, which is the Foundation of the Church.

Jews always reclined on cushions, with the right side against the very low Table, with the left side leaning back on a cushion. Because they concider it a chocking hazzard to face the other way, it was verified by none other then Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of the State of Israel, when he explained the Passover. Also here is a quote:

Quote:
Passover
Jewish Holidays Passover Passover History & Study Questions & Answers
Why do we recline to our left side at the seder?
By Menachem Posner
It was the custom of ancient royalty to recline on the left for two reasons:
a) Food is normally held in the right hand. Leaning toward the left leaves the right hand free.
b) Leaning on the right is a choking hazard. It can prevent the epiglottis from covering the trachea, allowing food to enter and stop the flow of oxygen.
Wishing you a happy and kosher Passover!
Rabbi Menachem Posner
:END QUOTE.


So if Jesus was Reclining, HIS right arm would be on the table, and JOHN would be on HIS Breast side, where the obvious choice of the Disciple to Set the cup down in front of, was JOHN.

John 21:20 (YLT)
20 And Peter having turned about doth see the disciple whom Jesus was loving following,
(who also reclined in the supper on his breast, and said, `Sir, who is he who is delivering thee up?')
{That is not literally on HIS BREAST, but the person immediately in front of HIM.}

John 13:31-36 (NCV)
31 When Judas was gone, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man receives his glory, and God receives glory through him.
32 If God receives glory through him, then God will give glory to the Son through himself. And God will give him glory quickly.“
33 Jesus said, “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and what I told the Jews, I tell you now: Where I am going you cannot come.
34 “I give you a new command: Love each other. You must love each other as I have loved you.
35 All people will know that you are my followers if you love each other.“
36 Simon Peter asked Jesus, “Lord, where are you going?“
Jesus answered, “Where I am going you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.“ {There is the Rapture.}


So what does JESUS DO, in the JEWISH TRADITION, after the BRIDE DRINKS FROM THE CUP ? ? ?


HE MAKES THIS STATEMENT: I am going there to prepare a place for you. That is CORRECT, that statement comes RIGHT OUT OF THE TRADITION Betrothel, and at that INSTANT, they are Called BRIDEGROOM and BRIDE. HE IS BUSY, building Us a new Dwelling Place, in HIS FATHER's HOUSE. ONLY the Father can APPROVE the New Dwelling Place, therefore ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS when the WEDDING WILL BE. That is the REAL REASON why we WAIT AND WATCH for our BRIDEGROOM to COME.

Your statement to GOAD Us into being Prepared, is TOTALLY REDICULOUS.

Jesus did go to prepare a place for his bride the Church, it's called (New Jerusalem) in the New Heaven, And Earth

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Pre-trib is a relatively recent phenomenon. There is no evidence that anyone in history, except maybe one monk, believed in pre-trib before Darby.

Read very carefully what I had put in a post back in February:

Post #1934 (page 97) of another thread - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4499416

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
"a Lamb standing as having been slain [perfect participle]"
[is this saying, "but not really, he really hadn't been"... "it only LOOKED like it" ??]

A slain lamb is DEAD and not standing. Perhaps He appeared to John the way He really looked after being whipped almost to death, then nailed to a cross, but alive once again.

Right.

That's the point I'm making, pretty much... That this picture [5:6] is not only a "REALITY" (not something "unreal" merely because the word "as" is used)... and that the "having been slain" is in the "perfect tense [participle]"... but that He is shown here as "STANDING" (not "seated")... thus, also as [already been] "resurrected from the dead"... which (all other things considered, as I've already mentioned--the "chronology" issues and the "timing" factors in this Book and related passages/sections of Scripture--not going to go through each of those again in this post) is indeed providing a particular "time-stamp" (aka "calendar date") but not [back] in 32ad, but rather, "in the future" (i.e. pertaining to the future "7-yr trib"--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, per 1:1/1:19c/4:1)



[again, Paul said he would be awarded a "stephanos/crown" "IN THAT DAY"... and "not to [him] only"... and these "24 elders" are shown to be wearing "stephanon/crowns" and are seated on "THRONES"... which, just as in the 2Th2:3-9a passage, is ALSO showing the SAME SEQUENCE: "our Rapture / THE DEPARTURE" must take place "*FIRST*" before "the DOTL [earthly time-period of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth] can "BE PRESENT / BE HERE" [as was the Subject of v.2] with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those SEVEN YEARS (same time-amount shown in Dan9:27a[26b]; SAME SEQUENCE also that 1Th4-5 had shown [1Th5:2-3 being the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that Jesus had also referred to, parallel SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yrs)]

 

[lamad]

Nope. The Son of Perdition is known, by being revealed, when he brokers a peace deal with Israel. He is fully EMPOWERED later on yes.

So find that verse in Revelation.

I am persuaded that this deal will be done in secret or so many men will be involved that the real man of sin is hidden. John makes no mention of him until chapter 13.

 

[cv5]

View attachment 227265
See even this artist, DID NOT UNDERSTAND the Jewish Tradition of their position.

Do you know why a PreTrib Rapture, makes Perfect Since ? ? ? And to Goad us into being Prepared, HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

Jesus went to the FATHER'S HOUSE (Heaven) to prepare a dwelling place for us.

John 14:2-3 (NCV)
2 There are many rooms in my Father’s house; I would not tell you this if it were not true. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
3 After I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me so that you may be where I am.


In a Jewish Orthodox Wedding Proposal, it was NON-VERBAL. He was went to a Family sit down SUPPER, in the brides old dwelling place.

HE would pour a cup of Wine, and sit it down in front of HIS chosen BRIDE.

She knew it was a Wedding Proposal, and if she drank from that cup, she was accepting the Proposal.

Jesus poured the cup, and set it PROBABLY in front of John, who was seated on HIS breast side. He and all the disciples Drank from that CUP, which is the Foundation of the Church.

Jews always reclined on cushions, with the right side against the very low Table, with the left side leaning back on a cushion. Because they concider it a chocking hazzard to face the other way, it was verified by none other then Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of the State of Israel, when he explained the Passover. Also here is a quote:

Quote:
Passover
Jewish Holidays Passover Passover History & Study Questions & Answers
Why do we recline to our left side at the seder?
By Menachem Posner
It was the custom of ancient royalty to recline on the left for two reasons:
a) Food is normally held in the right hand. Leaning toward the left leaves the right hand free.
b) Leaning on the right is a choking hazard. It can prevent the epiglottis from covering the trachea, allowing food to enter and stop the flow of oxygen.
Wishing you a happy and kosher Passover!
Rabbi Menachem Posner
:END QUOTE.


So if Jesus was Reclining, HIS right arm would be on the table, and JOHN would be on HIS Breast side, where the obvious choice of the Disciple to Set the cup down in front of, was JOHN.

John 21:20 (YLT)
20 And Peter having turned about doth see the disciple whom Jesus was loving following,
(who also reclined in the supper on his breast, and said, `Sir, who is he who is delivering thee up?')
{That is not literally on HIS BREAST, but the person immediately in front of HIM.}

John 13:31-36 (NCV)
31 When Judas was gone, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man receives his glory, and God receives glory through him.
32 If God receives glory through him, then God will give glory to the Son through himself. And God will give him glory quickly.“
33 Jesus said, “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and what I told the Jews, I tell you now: Where I am going you cannot come.
34 “I give you a new command: Love each other. You must love each other as I have loved you.
35 All people will know that you are my followers if you love each other.“
36 Simon Peter asked Jesus, “Lord, where are you going?“
Jesus answered, “Where I am going you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.“ {There is the Rapture.}


So what does JESUS DO, in the JEWISH TRADITION, after the BRIDE DRINKS FROM THE CUP ? ? ?


HE MAKES THIS STATEMENT: I am going there to prepare a place for you. That is CORRECT, that statement comes RIGHT OUT OF THE TRADITION Betrothel, and at that INSTANT, they are Called BRIDEGROOM and BRIDE. HE IS BUSY, building Us a new Dwelling Place, in HIS FATHER's HOUSE. ONLY the Father can APPROVE the New Dwelling Place, therefore ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS when the WEDDING WILL BE. That is the REAL REASON why we WAIT AND WATCH for our BRIDEGROOM to COME.

Your statement to GOAD Us into being Prepared, is TOTALLY REDICULOUS.

We needed that refresher thanks.

 

[lamad]

Right.

That's the point I'm making, pretty much... That this picture [5:6] is not only a "REALITY" (not something "unreal" merely because the word "as" is used)... and that the "having been slain" is in the "perfect tense [participle]"... but that He is shown here as "STANDING" (not "seated")... thus, also as [already been] "resurrected from the dead"... which (all other things considered, as I've already mentioned--the "chronology" issues and the "timing" factors in this Book and related passages/sections of Scripture--not going to go through each of those again in this post) is indeed providing a particular "time-stamp" (aka "calendar date") but not [back] in 32ad, but rather, "in the future" (i.e. pertaining to the future "7-yr trib"--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, per 1:1/1:19c/4:1)



[again, Paul said he would be awarded a "stephanos/crown" "IN THAT DAY"... and "not to [him] only"... and these "24 elders" are shown to be wearing "stephanon/crowns" and are seated on "THRONES"... which, just as in the 2Th2:3-9a passage, is ALSO showing the SAME SEQUENCE: "our Rapture / THE DEPARTURE" must take place "*FIRST*" before "the DOTL [earthly time-period of JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth] can "BE PRESENT / BE HERE" [as was the Subject of v.2] with its "man of sin" and ALL he will DO over the course of those SEVEN YEARS (same time-amount shown in Dan9:27a[26b]; SAME SEQUENCE also that 1Th4-5 had shown [1Th5:2-3 being the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that Jesus had also referred to, parallel SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yrs)]

The "time" is presented to us by what we read. Why is this so difficult for you? All we need is in this passage. We don't need to look in other books or other chapters.
God shows John a view of the throne room - in a vision supposedly about the "revelation" of Jesus Christ - but He is MISSING! The main character of the book is NOT SEEN. This is EXACTLY what God wanted John to see and notice. it is just as if God was showing John what the throne room would have appeared after Jesus left heaven to be born of Mary. It was the same picture for around 32 years: God the Father on the throne, but NO Jesus at His right hand (because Jesus was on earth).

Then at a time when we would expect the Holy Spirit to be sent down, He is STILL THERE in the throne room - just as if Jesus had not yet ascended. ("BINGO!")

Then God showed in the vision a search for one worthy to take the book - but that search ended in failure - which was EXACTLY what God wanted John to see and experience. It is just as it would have been before Christ rose from the dead. Before that He would have been UNWORTHY to take the book and open the seals.

But as always happens, TIME PASSES. Jesus rose from the dead and then was found worthy. Here is a REAL time stamp. John pinpoints the time of Jesus resurrection in this vision. He "prevailed" over death and was then found worthy.

The rest you know, but don't understand. Shortly after Jesus rose from the dead, He had an encounter with Mary and told her that He had not yet ascended. As soon as Jesus sent her away He ascended, and John got to see this moment in the vision. And of course as He said He would - He sent the Holy Spirit down. Another time stamp.

But, you being you, you wish to ignore these real time stamps and find others that are not related.

Just so you know: the first seal, opened around 32 AD is to represent the CHURCH taking the gospel to the world.

Do you imagine there would not be a fight - that Satan would just stand aside and allow the gospel to expand? NEVER! The church had to overcome in every new principality. Powers had to be fought in prayer and overcome. People DIED as martyrs taking the gospel out.

Seals 2 - 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. God has allowed him to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts. However, God LIMITED their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the world.

Now stop and think: if this is the Antichrist Beast, then HE is limited to 1/4th of the earth, which would leave a lot of places to HIDE from him. But what does the scriptures tell us?

Rev. 13:7 ...and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The Beast will have world wide power and authority given to him from Satan. This alone makes it impossible for the first seal to be the Beast.

Then John shows us that these three, the Red Horse and rider, the Black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider ride TOGETHER, leaving the white horse and rider out of their mix. AGain, this along proves that the first seal cannot be the Antichrist Beast. It seems you overlook all these things and using eisegesis just insist that the first seal must be the antichrist - when there is NOT ONE WORD or hint that this is truth, and some words proving otherwise.

Why do you ignore the parallel between the 2nd, third and 4th seals and the Olivet Discourse?

 

[Truth7t7]

So find that verse in Revelation.

I am persuaded that this deal will be done in secret or so many men will be involved that the real man of sin is hidden. John makes no mention of him until chapter 13.

Your claim that the Man Of Sin,The Beast is gonna be some hidden secret agent is false, just as cv5 mentioned

As scripture clearly states, he will be revealed to the Church and world, shewing himself that he is God

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[cv5]

A slain lamb is DEAD and not standing. Perhaps He appeared to John the way He really looked after being whipped almost to death, then nailed to a cross, but alive once again.

The seminal verse is Dan 9:27a. Rev 6:2 is the parallel verse.

 

[cv5]

So find that verse in Revelation.

I am persuaded that this deal will be done in secret or so many men will be involved that the real man of sin is hidden. John makes no mention of him until chapter 13.

That theory doesn't square with scripture. Dan 9:27a finds triple redundancy in 2Thes 2 "revealed".

This revealing is definitely a big deal. The man of lawlessness will be on the world stage, probably the most famous politician on the planet by then. No doubt his face will be plastered all over the MSM news, who will, in accordance with satanic agenda , be boosting him 24/7. Some kind of comprehensive peace deal for Israel will be front page news. The man of sin will probably have his face on Time Magazine and get a Nobel Peace Prize to boot.

 

[VCO]

Jesus did go to prepare a place for his bride the Church, it's called (New Jerusalem) in the New Heaven, And Earth

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

You surely do not believe CHRIST MARRIES A BUILDING DO YOU ? ? ?

That is a classic KJV mistake.


Here ARE JEWISH HOMES adorned as A BRIDE for the WEDDING, and the home is Veiled, because in orthodox Judaism it is MANDATORY to build a New Dwelling Place for the BRIDE in the FATHER's House. The NEW JERUSALEM is the NEW DWELLING PLACE, that CHRIST has built for HIS BRIDE. IT WILL BE IN HEAVEN until the Millennial Kingdom is FINISHED.

,

,

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT. IT IS GOING TO ARRIVE ON EARTH STILL DRESSED AS THESE HOUSES, ONLY FANCIER.

Revelation 21:2 (ASV)
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:2 (NCV)
2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It was prepared like a bride dressed for her husband.

Revelation 21:2 (GWT)
2 Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, dressed like a bride ready for her husband.

Revelation 21:2 (NIV)
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Therefore it is not the BRIDE, but the DWELLING PLACE HE BUILT FOR HIS BRIDE, "THE ASSEMBLY " and where HE MARRIED HER.


That is AFTER the 7 YEARS of TRIBULATION and the Millennial Kingdom, is OVER. In Other words IT IS THE BEGINNING of the Eternal State, when the NEW HEAVEN (atmosphere) and NEW EARTH. That is NOT the BRIDE it self, it is ADORNED AS A BRIDE, in other words it is the still is adorned FOR THE WEDDING OF CHRIST, to the HIS ASSEMBLY the BRIDE.

 

[cv5]

The "time" is presented to us by what we read. Why is this so difficult for you? All we need is in this passage. We don't need to look in other books or other chapters.
God shows John a view of the throne room - in a vision supposedly about the "revelation" of Jesus Christ - but He is MISSING! The main character of the book is NOT SEEN. This is EXACTLY what God wanted John to see and notice. it is just as if God was showing John what the throne room would have appeared after Jesus left heaven to be born of Mary. It was the same picture for around 32 years: God the Father on the throne, but NO Jesus at His right hand (because Jesus was on earth).

Then at a time when we would expect the Holy Spirit to be sent down, He is STILL THERE in the throne room - just as if Jesus had not yet ascended. ("BINGO!")

Then God showed in the vision a search for one worthy to take the book - but that search ended in failure - which was EXACTLY what God wanted John to see and experience. It is just as it would have been before Christ rose from the dead. Before that He would have been UNWORTHY to take the book and open the seals.

But as always happens, TIME PASSES. Jesus rose from the dead and then was found worthy. Here is a REAL time stamp. John pinpoints the time of Jesus resurrection in this vision. He "prevailed" over death and was then found worthy.

The rest you know, but don't understand. Shortly after Jesus rose from the dead, He had an encounter with Mary and told her that He had not yet ascended. As soon as Jesus sent her away He ascended, and John got to see this moment in the vision. And of course as He said He would - He sent the Holy Spirit down. Another time stamp.

But, you being you, you wish to ignore these real time stamps and find others that are not related.

Just so you know: the first seal, opened around 32 AD is to represent the CHURCH taking the gospel to the world.

Do you imagine there would not be a fight - that Satan would just stand aside and allow the gospel to expand? NEVER! The church had to overcome in every new principality. Powers had to be fought in prayer and overcome. People DIED as martyrs taking the gospel out.

Seals 2 - 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. God has allowed him to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts. However, God LIMITED their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the world.

Now stop and think: if this is the Antichrist Beast, then HE is limited to 1/4th of the earth, which would leave a lot of places to HIDE from him. But what does the scriptures tell us?

Rev. 13:7 ...and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The Beast will have world wide power and authority given to him from Satan. This alone makes it impossible for the first seal to be the Beast.

Then John shows us that these three, the Red Horse and rider, the Black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider ride TOGETHER, leaving the white horse and rider out of their mix. AGain, this along proves that the first seal cannot be the Antichrist Beast. It seems you overlook all these things and using eisegesis just insist that the first seal must be the antichrist - when there is NOT ONE WORD or hint that this is truth, and some words proving otherwise.

Why do you ignore the parallel between the 2nd, third and 4th seals and the Olivet Discourse?

You have to look at the overall patterns of all of the parallel versus. When you do, the identity of the rider of Rev 6:2 becomes crystal clear.

Biblical prophecy is a network of patterns, codes, types. Sometimes you have to back off and look at the big picture.

 

[cv5]

You surely do not believe CHRIST MARRIES A BUILDING DO YOU ? ? ?

That is a classic KJV mistake.


Here ARE JEWISH HOMES adorned as A BRIDE for the WEDDING, and the home is Veiled, because in orthodox Judaism it is MANDATORY to build a New Dwelling Place for the BRIDE in the FATHER's House. The NEW JERUSALEM is the NEW DWELLING PLACE, that CHRIST has built for HIS BRIDE. IT WILL BE IN HEAVEN until the Millennial Kingdom is FINISHED.

,

,

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT. IT IS GOING TO ARRIVE ON EARTH STILL DRESSED AS THESE HOUSES, ONLY FANCIER.

Revelation 21:2 (ASV)
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:2 (NCV)
2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It was prepared like a bride dressed for her husband.

Revelation 21:2 (GWT)
2 Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, dressed like a bride ready for her husband.

Revelation 21:2 (NIV)
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Therefore it is not the BRIDE, but the DWELLING PLACE HE BUILT FOR HIS BRIDE, "THE ASSEMBLY " and where HE MARRIED HER.


That is AFTER the 7 YEARS of TRIBULATION and the Millennial Kingdom, is OVER. In Other words IT IS THE BEGINNING of the Eternal State, when the NEW HEAVEN (atmosphere) and NEW EARTH. That is NOT the BRIDE it self, it is ADORNED AS A BRIDE, in other words it is the still is adorned FOR THE WEDDING OF CHRIST, to the HIS ASSEMBLY the BRIDE.

Another wonderful contribution thank you.

 

[presidente]

Read very carefully what I had put in a post back in February:

Post #1934 (page 97) of another thread - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4499416

It seems like you are reading some idea that you think is relevant to pre-trib into Ireneaus' remarks when there is no reason to interpret them that way. That's what pre-tribbers do with a lot of verses in the Bible, reading pre-trib into passages like II Thessalonians 2. Where are the verses that lead someone to believe in pre-trib in the first place, without having to assume it and read it into the passage? That is what is lacking with pre-trib, that and the scripture that just does not work with pre-trib, like Matthew 24.