Would Christ Vote?

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Publican said:
Is not Christ our example?
Should we not follow that example?
Christ was unconcerned with the political system He lived under.
He had bigger fish to multiply.
Shouldn't we?
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On what basis have you concluded that "Christ was unconcerned with the political system He lived under"? Before incarnating, the Son was very concerned about and involved in politics, raising up rulers and bringing down rulers. Jesus used his right to free speech to scathingly criticised the Jewish political rulers and He tried to influence them toward behaving more justly and compassionately using the peaceful and legal means available to Him. Paul, in the Spirit, used Roman law to gain advantages over his enemies. Voting by citizens was not a peaceful and legal mechanism for influencing the quality of justice in society in Jesus' days. We can vote and multiply fish. These are not either or options.

Your claim that "Christ was unconcerned with the political system He lived under" is not something the scriptures actually says. Are you Amish?
 
sawdust said:
Or they were looking for someone who would listen to their concerns and would act on them.

Trump spoke about closing the border, cutting waste and getting inflation down and lowering the cost of living.

Harris spoke about ... well, still trying to decipher what she was saying ... but generally the Democrats spoke of democracy is in danger and Trump is Hitler.

I'm an Aussie so I have no vested interest, politically or emotionally, in your politics but anyone with half a brain could see Harris was nowhere near capable as President of the US.

As far as I can see the only Harris lead the people of America followed was to "unburden itself of what has been" and that was the smartest thing they did.
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The thing about democracy is that the United States is not a democracy but rather a republic, currently consisting of 50 separate sovereign states. The country is govern by democratic principles but it is not a true democracy.
 
If a person wants to vote, that's their right; but it shouldn't be a test of faith. That's what I'm hearing a lot more of lately and that's not Christian. They try to make people feel like if they aren't invested in politics then they're surrendering to evil. But that's just a manipulation tactic. There are good and valid reasons not to vote, it doesn't mean you're apathetic toward evil. There are other ways to confront the evils in the world than through the political process. The biggest change I've seen in Christianity since the 1980s is it seems to have become lopsided in favoring the political process to combat evil. This is the lazy person's approach really; just show up and vote, then hope the politicians will do your work for you.
 
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posthuman said:
no, that's not what casting lots is.
the situation described in Proverbs 18:18 is that there are equal votes on both sides of some topic, so that discussion among humans cannot decide or determine the right course. if casting lots was equivalent to humans voting then this proverb would make nonsense whatsoever - more votes can't break a deadlocked vote.

Proverbs 16:33​
The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.​
​
the Biblical practice of casting lots is like the urim and thummin. it is essentially pure physical chance, like rolling dice or flipping a coin - the idea behind it being that God alone can control the flip of a coin. it is absolutely not 'voting' - everywhere it is mentioned in scripture it is decidedly allowing God to give direction and absolutely excluding any input from human opinion or will.

nevertheless the example in the Bible is 100% opposed to making such decisions by humans voting.

this is exactly why in Acts they arrived at a conclusion about a handful of qualified people, then cast lots. they were explicitly not making the decision by voting among themselves, but allowing God to give them direction. that was their intent - but as @Magenta points out, open question as to whether God blessed or approved what they were trying to do.

this makes Proverbs 16:33 an incredibly powerful statement given the things revealed by quantum mechanics in the early 1900's regarding the nature of the physical universe: it is probabilistic, not deterministic. the cosmos is much more like the casting of lots than it is like voting: indicating that only God controls things, never man.

@cv5 probably has some good input on this point :)
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I never said it was equivalent, it's like/similar mr. exaggerator.

And you got flipping a coin from got questions commentators. They use them for choosing leaders regardless. It's mentioned a couple of times in scripture for that purpose.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Those 12 constitute one of the most important and powerful government offices in the history of mankind.

Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:28-30​
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According to Jesus, that will take place in the regeneration or when Jesus returns to sit upon the throne of his glory.

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Context matters.

Interestingly, one of Jesus' disciples, Simon Zelotes, was apparently a zealot when Jesus called him. To my knowledge, there is no indication in scripture that Simon continued in his political aspirations after becoming Jesus' disciple or one of his apostles.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Simon-the-Zealot.html
 
ResidentAlien said:
If a person wants to vote, that's their right; but it shouldn't be a test of faith. That's what I'm hearing a lot more of lately and that's not Christian. They try to make people feel like if they aren't invested in politics then they're surrendering to evil. But that's just a manipulation tactic. There are good and valid reasons not to vote, it doesn't mean you're apathetic toward evil. There are other ways to confront the evils in the world than through the political process. The biggest change I've seen in Christianity since the 1980s is it seems to have become lopsided in favoring the political process to combat evil. This is the lazy person's approach really; just show up and vote, then hope the politicians will do your work for you.
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Precisely.

A former classmate of mine, who claims to be a Christian, spends 100% of his time on social media going on and on about politics, and I have never seen him even attempt to share the gospel with anybody.

Someone who I led to the Lord years ago is only slightly better. He spends about 99% of his time on social media going on and on about politics, and he will rarely make a slight attempt to share the gospel with anybody.

They both speak about Trump as if he was the savior of the world.

Jesus saves through the gospel, and that is what Christians have been called to preach. True change comes by way of a new heart and a new spirit, and both are only attainable through the new birth.
 
ResidentAlien said:
If a person wants to vote, that's their right; but it shouldn't be a test of faith. That's what I'm hearing a lot more of lately and that's not Christian. They try to make people feel like if they aren't invested in politics then they're surrendering to evil. But that's just a manipulation tactic. There are good and valid reasons not to vote, it doesn't mean you're apathetic toward evil. There are other ways to confront the evils in the world than through the political process. The biggest change I've seen in Christianity since the 1980s is it seems to have become lopsided in favoring the political process to combat evil. This is the lazy person's approach really; just show up and vote, then hope the politicians will do your work for you.
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Once you reach a point of zero democracy, it's hard to fight back against dictatorships. Like North Korea, Iran, China, and several others.

Voting is fighting the good fight, if people don't vote its giving up on democracy, allowing evil to rule nations. There is no other way than choice.
 
SaysWhat said:
Voting is fighting the good fight, if people don't vote its giving up on democracy,
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No it's not, that's just a manipulation tactic and a way to sidestep the real issue, which is a lack of good options. As it is, no matter who you vote for evil is the end result.
 
tourist said:
The thing about democracy is that the United States is not a democracy but rather a republic, currently consisting of 50 separate sovereign states. The country is govern by democratic principles but it is not a true democracy.
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And some how that changes what the Democrats spoke about?

There is no such thing as a "true" democracy for we are not governed by the people having a say on all matters but we are governed by representatives who are freely elected by the people. Whether you are a Constitutional Monarchy like Britain or a Federal Republic like the US or a mix of government like we have here down under, they all rely on the voice of the people appointing those who they believe will represent them the best.

The point of my post, which both you and the one I posted to seem to have missed, is the Trump team spoke to the concerns of the people, the Democrats did not.

Who you gonna trust? The one who listens or the one who ignores you?
 
ResidentAlien said:
No it's not, that's just a manipulation tactic and a way to sidestep the real issue, which is a lack of good options. As it is, no matter who you vote for evil is the end result.
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What do you expect when Christians, who are meant to be the salt and light of the world, refuse to be involved in politics?
 
sawdust said:
What do you expect when Christians, who are meant to be the salt and light of the world, refuse to be involved in politics?
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There are many ways to be salt and light. As I said in my previous post, if people want to engage with politics that's their right and I have no problem with it. What I have a problem with is being manipulated into it with illogical rhetoric.
 
sawdust said:
What do you expect when Christians, who are meant to be the salt and light of the world, refuse to be involved in politics?
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Your question boggles my mind.

Jesus said:

Jhn 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

How was Jesus involved in politics during his incarnation?

Did he join forces with Simon the zealot to overthrow Rome, or did he call Simon the zealot to join forces with him in a different endeavor?

Mar 10:41
And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

Mar 10:42
But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.

Mar 10:43
But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

Mar 10:44
And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

Mar 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Simon the zealot was one of the ten who heard Jesus contrast his servants with Gentile rulers who exercise lordship over others or who exercise authority upon them.

Meditate on this, and you will find the answer to your question.
 
keepingthingsreal said:
Interestingly, one of Jesus' disciples, Simon Zelotes, was apparently a zealot when Jesus called him. To my knowledge, there is no indication in scripture that Simon continued in his political aspirations after becoming Jesus' disciple or one of his apostles.
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Right. He joined the other party
 
ResidentAlien said:
No it's not, that's just a manipulation tactic and a way to sidestep the real issue, which is a lack of good options. As it is, no matter who you vote for evil is the end result.
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Yeah it really has nothing to do with the kingdom of God. However, Paul did implore the church to pray for those in authoity so that we can live a peaceful life. In fact, he called doing so good and acceptable to God. Voting is just a logical extension of that sentiment, especially for people who are instructed and expected to rule themselves.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1 Timothy 2:1-3​
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Voting is just a logical extension of that sentiment, especially for people who are instructed and expected to rule themselves.
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I agree. Ideally people should vote; but voting for the lesser of two evils is still evil.

If people want to do something productive in politics they should work to get more parties to choose from. They should also work to get rid of the electoral college. For example, I live in a solidly red state. I knew voting would be a waste of time unless I voted for Trump, which was borne out; he won by a landslide in my state. If there had been some decent candidates to choose from, and if my vote would've mattered, I would've voted. The system is broken; it disincentivises people from voting.
 
ResidentAlien said:
I agree. Ideally people should vote; but voting for the lesser of two evils is still evil.

If people want to do something productive in politics they should work to get more parties to choose from. They should also work to get rid of the electoral college. For example, I live in a solidly red state. I knew voting would be a waste of time unless I voted for Trump, which was borne out; he won by a landslide in my state. If there had been some decent candidates to choose from, and if my vote would've mattered, I would've voted. The system is broken; it disincentivises people from voting.
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The US is a federation of independent states. The electoral college is a check on the popular vote to prevent a small number of highly populated urban centers from controlling the outcomes that would be against rural interests, which is painstakingly obvious at this point.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
The US is a federation of independent states. The electoral college is a check on the popular vote to prevent a small number of highly populated urban centers from controlling the outcomes that would be against rural interests, which is painstakingly obvious at this point.
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I understand your rationale, but I don't agree with your conclusions; I'll just leave it at that. People should do their own research.
 
ResidentAlien said:
I understand your rationale, but I don't agree with your conclusions; I'll just leave it at that. People should do their own research.
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btw I understand your frustration with the system and the vanity of voting. This country is doomed. It has too many sins to answer for and the citizens are too dull and foolish to know what to do to correct the matter.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
btw I understand your frustration with the system and the vanity of voting. This country is doomed. It has too many sins to answer for and the citizens are too dull and foolish to know what to do to correct the matter.
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No frustration; there are some things that could be improved upon, that's all. In the meantime, the Lord's in control and my trust is in Him.
 
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