WOF vs Hermeneutics

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Then we would have to start doubting scripture though which doesn’t seem like a good ideer

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

air we begin doubting that it’s authentic of sayong it’s corrupted our trust flies out the window of all the information God has made known to save us . And then everyone is left to think what they think and claim it’s gods spirit telling them

Is god capable of protecting the integrity of his word tbat he said would be preached to all creation ? I believe he is and so we can trust the scriptures without that trust we’re going to end up being “our own Bible “


“We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Also, in your quoted verse, it is the "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" that completes a believer. Someone else, other than the one being instructed, is actually doing the instructing, reproofing, correcting, etc. Otherwise we would be left to read and interpret the scriptures for ourselves: starting as babies, we would say it means whatever we want it to say. Eventually, heaven forbid, we would have churches supporting sin as a lifestyle, preachers robbing the flock, and a cult of personality behind the pulpit.

Wait. What?!
 
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No. We should not doubt scripture. Only test how scripture is being taught. We can know what is written but to know what it means requires the Holy Spirit and wisdom. Otherwise, church leaders would be chosen from among the educated vs from those who have walked with the Lord for years.

Wait. What...?:cool:

Yes, and to know what is wise requires learning Scripture.
IOW, both GW & the HS must testify that something is true and good.
 
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No. We should not doubt scripture. Only test how scripture is being taught. We can know what is written but to know what it means requires the Holy Spirit and wisdom. Otherwise, church leaders would be chosen from among the educated vs from those who have walked with the Lord for years.

Wait. What...?:cool:

“No. We should not doubt scripture. “

amen .
 
Also, in your quoted verse, it is the "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" that completes a believer. Someone else, other than the one being instructed, is actually doing the instructing, reproofing, correcting, etc. Otherwise we would be left to read and interpret the scriptures for ourselves: starting as babies, we would say it means whatever we want it to say. Eventually, heaven forbid, we would have churches supporting sin as a lifestyle, preachers robbing the flock, and a cult of personality behind the pulpit.

Wait. What?!

Also, in your quoted verse, it is the "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" that completes a believer.

Someone else, other than the one being instructed, is actually doing the instructing, reproofing, correcting, etc. “

isn’t it actually saying though the scripture is where the instruction reproof correcting is coming from though ?

sort of like where he came from there

“But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When you hear the gospel who are you learning from ?

We’re meant to lead people to Jesus so he can teach them through believing the gospel

“And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of course within groups there are teachers pastors prophets ect ect but look for instance who Paul an apostle is suggesting these folks had learned from

“But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:20-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Again within a church group there of course are teachers pastors ect but those are meant to lead people here

“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

where he who knows them through and through will begin to teach them if they abide in his doctrine that he taught .

But not meant to change the doctrine just lead people to the truth of the gospel where they will come to know Jesus themselves not needing someone else to teach them or intervene for them to have a relationship with him but it will be between the believer and the lord they choose to follow and believe
 
Also, in your quoted verse, it is the "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" that completes a believer.

Someone else, other than the one being instructed, is actually doing the instructing, reproofing, correcting, etc. “

isn’t it actually saying though the scripture is where the instruction reproof correcting is coming from though ?

sort of like where he came from there

“But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When you hear the gospel who are you learning from ?

We’re meant to lead people to Jesus so he can teach them through believing the gospel

“And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of course within groups there are teachers pastors prophets ect ect but look for instance who Paul an apostle is suggesting these folks had learned from

“But ye have not so learned Christ; if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:20-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Again within a church group there of course are teachers pastors ect but those are meant to lead people here

“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

where he who knows them through and through will begin to teach them if they abide in his doctrine that he taught .

But not meant to change the doctrine just lead people to the truth of the gospel where they will come to know Jesus themselves not needing someone else to teach them or intervene for them to have a relationship with him but it will be between the believer and the lord they choose to follow and believe

Save for Paul after his years with the believers in Antioch, we have no example, in the scriptures, of someone maturing by reading the Bible. Even then, Paul discipled Titus and Timothy (and others). This is the pattern Jesus showed us with His disciples.
 
Yes, and to know what is wise requires learning Scripture.
IOW, both GW & the HS must testify that something is true and good.

No. Wisdom is Truth applied. Your standard, needing both the Bible and the Holy Spirit to know Truth, would exclude the early believers from knowing the Truth.

My above comment stands on its own and scripture supports it but I wish to add….

Study the scriptures. But, more importantly, be a study OF the Word who is Christ. And imitate the one He sends you.
 
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Save for Paul after his years with the believers in Antioch, we have no example, in the scriptures, of someone maturing by reading the Bible. Even then, Paul discipled Titus and Timothy (and others). This is the pattern Jesus showed us with His disciples.
Could it be said that since Jesus is the master of the faith, that its okay?

There are plenty of 'I do this one thing at church and thats all you do' type of indoctrination. It seems to me that this is it's effect.

It seems that a person can learn from others. But the actual sustaiNing and development of understanding only happens once a person learns the scriptures well and applies it to their life.
 
Save for Paul after his years with the believers in Antioch, we have no example, in the scriptures, of someone maturing by reading the Bible. Even then, Paul discipled Titus and Timothy (and others). This is the pattern Jesus showed us with His disciples.
Actually Paul’s talking about Timothy brother and to him . Here

“and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But to be clear none of them were “reading the Bible “

They had the law and prophets at that time and the gospel had been preached to them by Jesus and so they had the revelations from the Holy Ghost Jesus gave them in the gospel.


This is being Said about scripture though not about any certain individual person

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s just said that Timothy has known the scriptures now he’s saying “ all scriptire is profitable for ect he’s not saying you need someone else to teach you what the scripture “ really says “ he’s saying the scriptures are profitable themselves

It’s interesting , up until Paul’s death he was requesting that they brought certain scriptures and scrolls and parchments to him in prison …. I wonder why he was still wanting scripture ?
 
Actually Paul’s talking about Timothy brother and to him . Here

“and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But to be clear none of them were “reading the Bible “

They had the law and prophets at that time and the gospel had been preached to them by Jesus and so they had the revelations from the Holy Ghost Jesus gave them in the gospel.


This is being Said about scripture though not about any certain individual person

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s just said that Timothy has known the scriptures now he’s saying “ all scriptire is profitable for ect he’s not saying you need someone else to teach you what the scripture “ really says “ he’s saying the scriptures are profitable themselves

It’s interesting , up until Paul’s death he was requesting that they brought certain scriptures and scrolls and parchments to him in prison …. I wonder why he was still wanting scripture ?

Because scripture is important.
 
Actually Paul’s talking about Timothy brother and to him . Here

“and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But to be clear none of them were “reading the Bible “

They had the law and prophets at that time and the gospel had been preached to them by Jesus and so they had the revelations from the Holy Ghost Jesus gave them in the gospel.


This is being Said about scripture though not about any certain individual person

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s just said that Timothy has known the scriptures now he’s saying “ all scriptire is profitable for ect he’s not saying you need someone else to teach you what the scripture “ really says “ he’s saying the scriptures are profitable themselves

It’s interesting , up until Paul’s death he was requesting that they brought certain scriptures and scrolls and parchments to him in prison …. I wonder why he was still wanting scripture ?

This is in context of their relationship: father and son in Christ. You know where that is in scripture, yes?
 
No. Wisdom is Truth applied. Your standard, needing both the Bible and the Holy Spirit to know Truth, would exclude the early believers from knowing the Truth.

My above comment stands on its own and scripture supports it but I wish to add….

Study the scriptures. But, more importantly, be a study OF the Word who is Christ. And imitate the one He sends you.

Wisdom is both learned and applied. (Isn't it interesting how both-and keeps being true?)

The HS is eternal although His role was not revealed fully until the NT, but early believers had less Bible and
thus needed more HS than we do per your logic.

And Christ also is eternal, and we should not try to tri-vorce any part of the Trinity,
even though it was not fully revealed until the NT--and even today is not fully understood.
(How'd you like that "tri-vorce" coinage? :^)
 
Because scripture is important.

yeah it’s important that teachers stick with it

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 
This is in context of their relationship: father and son in Christ. You know where that is in scripture, yes?
You mean Paul and Timothy’s relationship ? Yeah I’m aware of that relationship dynamic .

I don’t think it’s about that . But rather Paul was preparing Timothy to continue his ministry after his impending death. Is at least the context I think is there. He wasn’t actually Timothy’s biological father but Timothy had learned the gospel from Paul , Paul however learned it by revelation from Christ and passed it on to him like the concept of a father and son. Which is kind of what you were saying I never really was disagreeing I was just saying that my point was about what he’s saying about the scripture and correct doctrine remembering who it came from
 
What is it with people not charismatic Christians? did Jesus not say we can cast out demons? and do all sorts of things? The miracles of God are not limited to just reading the bible.
How many miracles have you done?
How many demons have you cast out?
How many people have you healed?
How many people have you raised from the dead?
 
How many miracles have you done?
How many demons have you cast out?
How many people have you healed?
How many people have you raised from the dead?

Though I've never healed anyone or cast out demons there are people that have. Gifts are measured out to who God wills we cant choose the gift we are given.
 
Are you saying that you became a Christian via mixing Herm and WOF? Could you explain please?
I don't think that's possible, as I am of the former crowd in post #14 for coming to a saving faith. But, truly, who can possibly claim 100% of anything. As ''newborn babes'', God the Father watches the hearts of those intent on proof out of envy or some such at worst, or, those still content to ''receive the sincere (pure) milk of the word''.
 
My point is, when Paul wrote "test everything" in 1 Thessalonians, with what were the believers to use to "test"? It certainly cannot be the New Testament.

The answer is found immediately before Paul wrote "test everything". The whole verse is this:

"Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good."
Howdy! To an old Pentecostal, he might find that amusing that we are invited to assign sequence in light of V-19?
 
What is it with people not charismatic Christians? did Jesus not say we can cast out demons? and do all sorts of things? The miracles of God are not limited to just reading the bible.

Jesus worked miracles to show He is Messiah, but after Pentecost miracles faded and were superseded
by teachings that Christians should do good works, thereby manifesting the fruit of the Christ's HS.
Hence the skepticism toward charlatans claiming to work miracles today.