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Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
- Thread starter LW97
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Actually legalism does. They water down the law and act as if their sin is ok while judging everyone else
In the above, a very important Grk phrase is being left out (between the two Grk words as presented above ^ ).
The phrase "WITH [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNIONED-/UNITED-with,' or 'IDENTIFIED-with'] HIM," that is, WHEN HE WAS
[referring to WHEN HE was made alive again/resurrected from the dead, back in 32ad, ON Firstfruit/His Resurrection Day].
A very important truth.
[and, by the way, this ^ is a very distinct "WITH [G4862 ^ ]" word FROM the "WITH [G3326 - meta]" word, used of the "FIVE [of the TEN] virgins [PLURAL]" who will "accompany Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [i.e. the earthly MK age]" (distinct from "the MARRIAGE" itself, pertaining solely to the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]")--He is not coming to "MARRY" ten or even five virgins [plural], they are wholly distinct from the "Bride/Wife [singular]"]
IMO the Spirit Is the part that you cannot be In touch with with any part of our five senses.A person can discern themselves with their body and soul but they cannot touch their spirit with anything carnal I mean of the flesh.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
No one needs a license to be immoral so your point is moot, which means baseless.
Conditional salvation on the other hand denies the efficacy of the cross, so which is more egregious?
You are actually telling Jesus His work does not save!!
Consider your dogma carefully
I would really appreciate if you would just post the entire passage correctly so that I could compare. Thank you. Know it was not intentional. I am sure everyone can go find it, I was just trying to save time. Thank you again for getting it out there in its correct form.
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE? seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
WHAT DO THESE THINGS MEAN? How can someone fall away, and renew again unto repentance. Thank you.
WHAT DO THESE THINGS MEAN? How can someone fall away, and renew again unto repentance. Thank you.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
It states it is impossible to do this.
That is key to the passage.
Why because as we were talking earlier there is only one repentance unto eternal life, it is not repeated over and over again.
Born again once.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.
This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.
It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.
This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!
I agree because I believe if we stop believe in Him, we lose our salvation
The law is written on believers hearts and minds it cannot be diluted.
33 I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Jer 31
19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.
20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
Ezek 11
The world of sacrifices in the temple did not resolve consciences.
9> This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.
Heb 9
The blood of Jesus has cleansed our consciences
22> let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10
Simple chain of reality here.
If Gods law is not written on your heart and in your mind, then you do not know Him.
If your conscience has not been cleansed and sins forgiven you are not walking in faith.
If you think the problem of the jews was failure to keep the law, you have not understood
knowing God.
You already posted the verse in detail... except for leaving out that very important detail that is conveying the fact that "WHEN HE was," we were as well "WITH [G4862] HIM" (at that time... WHEN HE was).
I'm just pointing out the missing (very important) phrase (as posted in what you'd put), and the implications of its correct rendering.
If sin is not repented of and resolved through the cross and a loving walk with Jesus then nothing
matters.
If anyone believes staying in sin, with a guilty conscience and self condemnation is the walk of
spiritual maturity they do not know Jesus. Jesus came to set us free not leave us bound in chains,
lost feeling that the only reality is to give up believing we can walk like Jesus.
People idolise things they either believe they will never be or never believe they can ever achieve.
Saying Jesus saves us in illusion but not reality, shown in heaven but not on earth is just delusion,
vapour ware that goes in the mist at the first sign of real trouble.
In a world of spoilt people who cling to delusions, the comforting delusion is we have what is
not apparent because it means we are safe except nothing has actually changed. This is just
existential faith because it feels good but does not actually exist.
To turn this delusional faith to say to actually see Jesus change us day in day out is a denial of
Jesus is the saddest admitting faith has done nothing for the speaker. It is a belief system which
is just because they cannot live without believing, but changing is just too hard and thought of
as the delusion of hypocrites and liars. When the beast appears, you know who is going to rush to
him, those who wanted something but only had words in Jesus but no reality.
Water down the law
I wanted to understand this idea. The law has to be first declared and defined to then be watered
down. The problem is a speaker who claims another group are watering down something have to
establish their view of the law and what the other group are doing to water it down.
It then struck me God himself had stopped this argument.
He wrote the law on His peoples heart and minds. We know the law, and our consciences bare witness
to it. It is our judge and jury. Paul himself relied on his conscience declaring himself clean.
Now unbelievers, ocd legalistic fanatics will invent their views, impose their interpretations on others
and claim they are evil and failures, but it is of no importance. God has written it on our hearts.
And what these unbelievers will actually say is there is only lawlessness, no law, no measure, no reference
just freedom. Do you know a better definition of anarchy and lawlessness than this?
The problem has never been the law but our lack of love, our sin and self justification of our behaviour,
our denial of the need for humbleness and sorrow. Any excuse will be taken by sinners to avoid humbleness
confession, sorrow will be taken, any justification why it is unnecessary, and they will all be lies.
Jesus is the only solution, His blood, the cross, breaking and dwelling in His love and acceptance, and
then walking in His will. There is no other way. God bless you, dear brothers and sisters in Christ.
I wanted to understand this idea. The law has to be first declared and defined to then be watered
down. The problem is a speaker who claims another group are watering down something have to
establish their view of the law and what the other group are doing to water it down.
It then struck me God himself had stopped this argument.
He wrote the law on His peoples heart and minds. We know the law, and our consciences bare witness
to it. It is our judge and jury. Paul himself relied on his conscience declaring himself clean.
Now unbelievers, ocd legalistic fanatics will invent their views, impose their interpretations on others
and claim they are evil and failures, but it is of no importance. God has written it on our hearts.
And what these unbelievers will actually say is there is only lawlessness, no law, no measure, no reference
just freedom. Do you know a better definition of anarchy and lawlessness than this?
The problem has never been the law but our lack of love, our sin and self justification of our behaviour,
our denial of the need for humbleness and sorrow. Any excuse will be taken by sinners to avoid humbleness
confession, sorrow will be taken, any justification why it is unnecessary, and they will all be lies.
Jesus is the only solution, His blood, the cross, breaking and dwelling in His love and acceptance, and
then walking in His will. There is no other way. God bless you, dear brothers and sisters in Christ.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Remember he can not even answer what “now works” in James means.
If Dan has made a good case for his theological position, he is to be congratulated.
The schools of thought have their foundations, but until we grasped the facts our opinions tend to
be based on assumption and liking various presentations and ideas.
What amazes me is how many get so worked up about these positions when our security is
in Jesus and the cross and not our theological conclusions. We have not got it wrong if we
have met the Lord, trusted Him, repented of our sins and are walking and learning from Him.
I thought Mac Cartha was a good preacher until I learnt the for him sexual desire is original sin.
Jesus is our teacher, so learn as He directs, Amen.
Yes, I do agree that there has to be a Godly sorrow in ones life, and that there comes a time
where the believer acknowledges the fact that he/she is in fact sick, and in need of help,
which also leads to a call unto the Lord.
I do also believe that this sorrow comes from the goodness of God, and Him drawing on us.
The only way in to the Kingdom of God is by the hand of God, I agree -
as the Spiritual seal on the heart is only done by Him, and not by a work of flesh.
The work of God is to believe on Jesus Christ, God in flesh - and the work He did for us.
The cross, His shedding of blood.
He is the fulfillment of the law - and righteousness is only found by His Spirit in us.
But what is your view on salvation? Do you not believe that He is able to keep you?
Enthusiastic people tend to use perjorative accusations to individuals who they believe conform
to the group they belong to. They find it hard to see that these general beliefs are expressed in
different ways and some do not follow the logical conclusions of a group position, so care needs
to be taken.
A pastor I know uses trigger words like open heaven, yet the theology this refers to is
not actually something he follows, it is just a catch phrase.
Another problem is particular experiences with individuals can lead some to believe everyone is
like the few they have met, not realising everyone is an individual, may use common phrases but
mean different things. But praise God we have love, grace and forgiveness and can work with our
brothers and sisters in Christ in their enthusiasm and their desire to encourage others to good things,
Amen.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Yes and in context "falling away" is not losing salvation.
The what the writer of Hebrews is addressing, is telling them going back to the animal sacrificial system of repetition is not what we do in the new convenant because to trying and repent again and again is to put Jesus is to open shame stating HIs sacrifice was insufficient to save
It is impossible to be born again more than once... so move onto maturity.